Question: Exxon Gas?? (No Ethynol?)

[Dad2BJO]

Misinformation

Wow. Alot of people here do not have a clue reagarding ethanol (thanks Hib for correcting that) the corn supply, and Brazil.

First, as far as is ethanol good/bad for the car that can be debated and I can look at both sides however all the fact must be straight.

Corn supply: 2010 acerage in the US is estimated at just under 90 Mil. Acres. With abandondment (I am not going to explain all that) farmers will produce about 13 Bil Bushels of corn. the 2009 crop was just over 13 Bil Bu so we will use that as a base.

Livestock feed uses between 5.5 Billion bu and 6 Bil. It will be probably closer to the smaller number. (these are off the top of my head btw) anyways, the corn in question, we do eat indirectly through meat consumption (and milk), so if we use corn from ethanol it is not "sweet" corn or the type you find on a cob in summer or in a can. (all the above acres are field corn, or feed corn etc). I am also leaving out the 75 Mil. acres of SB and other crops as well and will just look at corn. (BTW we raise about 3 BBU of soybeans)

Before the ethanol "boom" we used about 1.5 BBU for FSI or Food/seed/industrial uses which included HFCS.

Exports make up anywhere from 1.8 BBU to just over 2 BBU. Exports make the market move because it is a sign of global demand etc.

As far as ethanol, the USDA has 4 BBU plugged into the balance sheet for ethanol useage. Out of that over a 1/3 of the corn is re-used as livestock or even human food called dried distillers grains.

Now we add all the demand and even on the high side that is 12 BBU so we have about 1 BBU left. This year we have about 1.8 BBU left from last year and that is what we call the carry out. The carry out/demand is what we call the stocks to use ratio. If this is narrow it shows we need to rally the price, however what is happening is we are raising more corn to meet the demand. The national average corn yield was 165 BPA Last year and it was a record "per acre" yield. Technology is allowing us to grow more per acre.

So, we are NOT going to run out of food by producing ethanol out of corn.

Brazil: They make ethanol out of sugarcane and thier goal is to provide the WORLD with 10% of its renewable fuel demand. Sugarcane is much more efficent with the gallons of ethaol per acre. I dont have the number in my head, sorry but compared to corn, where we get almost 3 gal per bushel, cane is close to 2x (I think). Brazil is NOT a small country in fact the state of Rio Grande de sol can fit Illinois, Iowa, MN, MO and WI inside. 2 of our biggest corn states can fit inside and it has land capable of growing corn and soybeans in the same year, and that land is not touched yet and this land is NOT rain forest. It is just like IL and IA was when the settlers came accross. By the way ALL of south america produced about 5 Bil Bu of soybeans last year, and that is more than we did in the states. More Cane acres or Corn acres in Brazil will NOT take away soybean acres or rain forest.

Now the debate can rage about ethanol hurting fuel systems and the like and if that is the issue and concerns then fine however we will not run out of food due to use of ethanol and Brazil can produce much more if they wanted and they probably will. as far as the VETC, these are the credits the blenders get for blending ETOH (that is ethanol) and these are 45 cents per/gal. So at a 10% blend per gal. they get 4.5 cents back and in SOME (not all) cases they pass this on in price. The octane is better at around 105 but the BTU's are just over 1/2 so you get less energy but a higher octane. The forced induction guys love it because higher octane=less knock = more boost.

Correct on ETOH being used to replace the octane enhance MTBE which was harmful to the environment but ethanol is no more than moonshine (when it comes out of the still the pland add gasoline so it can not be consumed by humans)

With that said keep in mind. We CAN NOT raise enough corn to produce enough fuel to replace oil, unless the conversion gets ALOT better, and some would like you to belive that we canbut we really can not, however it has its place in the mix.

Debate on please.....

 

[Schrade]

Debate?

Just the facts ma'am...

Call it fuel. It's not octane; there's very few octane straight 8 carbons molecules in it. Probably more heptanes, (7), hexanes (6), and even pentanes (5 / more of this the higher the octane RATING)(rating is not the correct technical word either, but molality).

And ethanol (ethan[e]-ol - ol, from alcoh-OL) has no gasoline in it. It's just another alkane (2 carbons), with a hydroxide ion -OH in place of a lone hydrogen. Which makes it safe to drink YUP , but NOT while driving NOPe.

The rap on booze in gas is that the water in the alcohol takes extra hydrogens up, forming H3O, a WEAK watery acid, which is already in tap water YUP, and this acid causes problems.

Whatever THEY (?) claim that problem IS, who knows. One problem that it's NOT is rust, because acid reduces, not oxidizes, meaning it REMOVES rust from an oxidized metal, IF there's some already there.

 

[Dad2BJO]

Debate?

Just the facts ma'am...

Call it fuel. It's not octane; there's very few octane straight 8 carbons molecules in it. Probably more heptanes, (7), hexanes (6), and even pentanes (5 / more of this the higher the octane RATING)(rating is not the correct technical word either, but molality).

And ethanol (ethan[e]-ol - ol, from alcoh-OL) has no gasoline in it. It's just another alkane (2 carbons), with a hydroxide ion -OH in place of a lone hydrogen. Which makes it safe to drink YUP , but NOT while driving NOPe.

The rap on booze in gas is that the water in the alcohol takes extra hydrogens up, forming H3O, a WEAK watery acid, which is already in tap water YUP, and this acid causes problems.

Whatever THEY (?) claim that problem IS, who knows. One problem that it's NOT is rust, because acid reduces, not oxidizes, meaning it REMOVES rust from an oxidized metal, IF there's some already there.

Ethanol right out of the still is 100% pure and that is correct. My point was, that a few posts were alluding to the fact that ethanol is harmful to the environment, when in fact it is just straight booze. The ethanol plants DO SPIKE the booze with gasoline while it is at the plant to make it UN-FIT for human consumption, at least the ones here do.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[93Rubie]

First of all, it's spelled ethanol not "ethynol"

It's the Federally-mandated oxygenate in gasoline. It's required in virtually all urban areas of the country and in any area the EPA feels has an air quality problem. If EPA mandates its use, it's in the gas, no matter what brand of gasoline you buy.

Ethanol is questionable in effectiveness of decreasing emission in most engines older than 1992. Basically, it's a solution looking for a problem but it's here to stay thanks to environmentalists and lobbyists.

Ethanol oxygenated gas, reduces fuel mileage but it does absorb water so there are far less problems with water in the gas. Ethanol replace MTBE has the Federally-mandated oxygenate because of fears that MTBE was a ground water pollutant, however, ethanol comes with its own set of environmental and food supply negatives.

Most refiners use 5-8% but the Federal maximum limit (at least for now) is 10%. Environmentalists and the ethanol lobby want that raised to 15%.

if you have a car which was built before ethanol was put in gas and the Feds force the refiners to use 15% better be saving your money for a lot of expensive fuel system upgrades. Once you're into replacing your fuel lines and injectors, ask yourself, "How's that hope-y, change-y stuff working out?"

Not to turn this into a thread on politics but I see where you stand on the current administration and I like it. 15% will mess up all modern cars that are not flex fuel. Fuel trims will be all shot, we ran a non-flex fuel car on E85 at school one time to see what would happen, it maxed out all fuel trims and obviously set a check engine light. Anything greater than 10%=Very bad for a TON of cars not just older ones or Corvettes.
To Heck with the ethanol lobby and the envrioweenies, they know about as much about that stuff as they know about cars, which is NOTHING.

 

[Hib Halverson]

Actually, gasoline with 15% ethanol would probably not be a problem for most engine controls systems fuel trim functions unless...the LTFTs were already skewed lean.

Where 15% ethanol is a problem is in the fuel systems of cars built before ethanol was common in gasoline. It's a durabiilty issue with rubber, plastic and metal parts in the fuel system.

Now...when you put E85 in a non flex-fuel vehicle, yes...you have a big problem because E85 is 85% ethanol.

Not only will you have a serious and immediate problem with rubber and plastic parts but the fuel trim will immediately go to the end of the range and turn on the MIL because there is no way it has enough trim range for 85% ethanol.

Lastly, running E85 in an engine that is not flex-fuel, will usually cause severe detonation under high load.

 

[GRAND SPORT #12]

ok high octane fuel and E85 substitute fuel.. i stay away from the corn based fuels because what the enviromentalist dont tell you is how you rob peter to pay paul corn is one of the most fertalizer crop. needs a lot of it plus fertalizer is a petroleom byproduct. as octane goes dont waste your money high octane does not give you more power actually low octane fuel fires hotter. the purpose of higher octance for performance is for more advanced ignition timing. so if your car runs good on 89 without detonating buying a higher octane is a waste of hard earned money find the octane thats suits your driving contions and style..

 

[Schrade]

Ethanol right out of the still is 100% pure and that is correct. My point was, that a few posts were alluding to the fact that ethanol is harmful to the environment, when in fact it is just straight booze. The ethanol plants DO SPIKE the booze with gasoline while it is at the plant to make it UN-FIT for human consumption, at least the ones here do.

Thanks for proving my point.

We used to have 'grain parties' sometimes while in college, making our brew from laboratory gallon jugs of ethanol acquired from micro lab, that was not 'denatured'. Then the school admins started buying denatured stuff, which was only changed by addition of small amounts of methyl alcohol.

 

[ghertzog]

Non-ethanol fuels

In PA Lukoil does not add ethanol to gas.