It is US against them, a call to arms!

[69MyWay]

Okay guys, although this appears to be a ROAD KILL thread, it is really a wake up call.

I remember in the mid 80's to early 90's when a C4 was one of the most feared vehicles on the road. It took a might powerfull combination of aftermarket parts and accesories (that usually rendered the daily driving potential of the car useless) to get any other contemporary car to come close to the overall performance. At that time you found a 5.0 fox body rustang at every corner, and a F body every once in a while. Other than a few twin turbo 300Z's or RX7 turbo, there was not much out there to cause any disruptions on the street.

Things have changed. Now, name plates from Acura to Subaru are putting a hurting on us right out of the box. Add some mods to these cars, and they are over the top.

You may not own and operate your vette for the performance potential. However, I for one view the Corvette as the ultimate platform for stock performance, and aftermarket power mania.

Granted I am a pretty conservative fellow, but under the right circumstances, I don't mind showing you my tail lights.

This morning I encountered a brand new bright metalic blue four door Subaru WRX. It had some tuner brand name info on the rear tag frame, and some nice looking exhaust.

We ended up side by side (at 6:30 a.m.) on the last traffic light before the road blasts off into no mans land (no more lights for miles and miles).

I did not give him the time of day. Light cycled and we started across the intersection. Next thing I know VROOOOOOOOSHHHHH he is nailing it. Well, coast was clear, radar detector quiet, and this is a non pedestrian/intersecting road. I nailed it. Now either my car has a performance problem developing, or that freakin Subaru had a ZR1 engine under the hood. The good news is I caught and passed him, but nowhere near the ease that I pounded the M series Z3 last week. I mean, this guys little blue tin can was FAST!

I was on the down stroke coast getting ready to drop off my final exit when he caught up and gave me a thumbs up (at least he was really cool about it).

The problem is, had I not had a cheater engine under my hood, I would have NEVER caught him. That is one Kill story he won't be able to share.

Guys we gotta do something. We can't have these tin cans with turbos kicking our butts! Now I bagged this one, but there will be more. For all I know, he had his boost turned down for the purpose of daily driving.

I know what I have done about it (miniram etc), what about you guys?

With Ken's combo, there will be virtually NOTHING on the road with compatible performance. However, trying to get somewhere between there and what I have done for less than $5K is the real trick. I know these tiny turbo cars are not cheap to hop up, but that is not stopping them.

 

[LOU96LT4]

Can't afford alot of mods. But rule number 1, if there is a chance that you need to go (even if it is a little white haired lady in a mini van) , never let them catch you with your rpm's down.

Way to go!!!

 

[warren s]

Dude

I live in Staten Island, and its rice city all the way. I see so many WRXs around, its like the replacement IROC of the day. Also lots of rustangs and C5s, its almost hard to imagine there is a ression on, now that I am into Vettes (was into GTOs before) I even see a few C5s parked at the train station.

Anyway, my cars runs a best to date of a 13.39 with basicly light mods and I have ran quite of few WRXs. They do come out strong and seem to hook up, I usually have to come out easy to keep the ASR light off, but I always take em down. Funny how i settled for an automatic car (always wanted a six speed) and now love it. Raced a bunch of 12 second rustangs and beat them in a short street race due to "driver error", but as for ricers it no contest.

I am doing my best to keep the plastic alive.

http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c4/c4s4ever/

 

[vent69]

the way i figure it is a modern car so what if it is faster than some of ours. there is better technology if there happy about betting a c4 the race a more modern car a c5 or something and see what happens

 

[boblx2a]

It is a US against them, a call to arms!

Well 69, you're part right. I for one bought in because I got beat! I was a Fiero fanatic and believed everything they told me (well almost!) on the Fiero list. That BS about them beating Vettes, etc. One day I chased a Vette off of an on ramp and he left me like I had slammed on my brakes. That was the day I became a Vette owner! Well, I didn't buy it that day but I was through with Fiero's. Don't get me wrong they are great little sports cars but the are not Vette eaters, like some on them would lead you to believe.
Since I have been driving my '86 (which was really hot!) and now this docile little '85 I have not even had an offer. They keep their little big piped, raspy, rice burners to a respectable distance when we are around.
Maybe that is just coincidental but when I was driving my Fiero I had an offer at least twice a week or more. Not that I would race or anything like that!

A nice shiny red (or any other color probably) Vette sitting at a stop light still get a bit of respect in our area.........

 

[69MyWay]

Around here, many of the ricers are very fast. We have a mod/tuner shop down the road from the house that specializes in turbo work. They are putting Civics into the 11's. These guys know they are fast, and seem to enjoy putting Vettes in the dust.

The ricer guys are getting like the old 5.0 mustang crowd. Do you remember when the fox body mustang was the stink?. They had it all figured out--headers, EB03 cam, bigger t/b, pressure regulator, and gears was all they needed to shoot deep into the 12's. Since mustangs grow on trees (especially the old highway patrol models), parts new and used were cheap. Now the civic/integra, etc. guys are on the same track. They are taking econo box cars and using about the same stuff on each car to get the "magic" formula down.

The vette crowd has always been too fragmented. Everybody has their own opinion of what does and does not work.


We need a set of basic mods that everybody subscribes to. Do you guys know where I am going with this? For example the injectors, gears, cam, and intake options. This should be a known formula all things being equal will put your vette in the 12's everytime. As I search the net, and popular Corvette type forums I see individuals all doing something different. Heck, we can't even agree on a chip that provides the best performance, because we are all doing something different.

Why the heck don't we have this forumla figured out????? Why all the guess work??????

I plan on running mine on the track soon, and getting some dyno time this fall. I hope to put those specs up so others can compare and expect a more predictable outcome to mods. Too many people end up going slower after installing certain parts because they are not matched, and there is no standard for measure.

Can we do this?

 

[ZR100060]

Overpopulation

I have a 91 ZR1 (00060) that will run in the high 12s, I also have a 500 + HP Pantera that will run in the low 11s. The rice rockets don't seem interested in the Z, but I can't drive anywhere without Mustangs and Camaros on the bumper of the Pantera. It drives me nuts. What really sets me off is being on a super crowded southern California freeway rolling along at 28 mph because of the traffic. It almost makes you think of selling your car. Too many people-too many cars-too many idiots!!

 

[Deusxmachine]

I dont have to worry about ricers in my town. All they are worried about is getting a big wing and a body kit and not even waiting to get them painted lol. But the mustangs around here are badass. Thousands of 5.0s every were. I just got my first vette a few weeks ago. It has the 250hp l98. All i have done so far is cut the air lid fins out and put a k&n filter in. What kind of mods would get me to 300hp? I want my car to be a stang killer.

 

[Tim46]

I had a good laugh the other day when stopped at a red light. A guy on a Ninja scooter pulled up and looked over and reved up a few times. Everyone at the light was watching so I thought what the heck. The light turned green and I nailed it. The crotch rocket guy had not down shifted so he jumped about two feet and killed his engine. It made my Vette look good but I am also a realist if he had been TCB I would have been waxed.

 

[warren s]

The problem with listing a specific set improvements for a Vette is that some things work well on one engine trans combo but not as well on another, also Vette owners get soaked compared to other V8 muscle cars, such as the differance in prices from the F bodies so experiments can be costly.

But sticking to basics should work well, an 11 second Civic has got to cost as much as a supercharged Vette. My 95 runs low 13s with very basic stuff, low temp therm, throttle body coolent bypass, air foil, open air box and K&N filter, low restriction exhaust. Maybe with a new cam and some head porting I can hit the 12s. But these mods are not applicable to alot of Vettes such as a carburated engine car.

And lastly, I dont care how fast a ricer goes, they are still goofy looking little buzz bombs worth about fifty cents after a summer of use and every time they get into them hard its like stuffing 10 pounds of sh-t into a 5 pound sack.

 

[69MyWay]

I dont have to worry about ricers in my town. All they are worried about is getting a big wing and a body kit and not even waiting to get them painted lol. But the mustangs around here are badass. Thousands of 5.0s every were. I just got my first vette a few weeks ago. It has the 250hp l98. All i have done so far is cut the air lid fins out and put a k&n filter in. What kind of mods would get me to 300hp? I want my car to be a stang killer.

That is exactly my point. Will it make 300 hsp? Who knows? Too bad we don't have a "known" formula for the C4 engine combos.

Everybody does the little exterior mods. I am not so sure they really amount to that much. If you believe what you read in the Corvette magazines, and if you add each mod up, you would get to 90 hsp in no time between an air foil, cold air package, mufflers, adjustable regulator, chip, hotter coil, platnum plugs, etc. The truth is, that might add 12 hsp at 6,000 RPM. You can't feel 12 hsp.

Edelbrock does an awesome job putting packages together that take the guess work out. However, they are designed for carb engines. We need to know that packages work under given conditions and year models with auto/stick and different rear end options. Companies like TPiS do a great job, but they still put you in a pick and choose mode.

 

[Edmond]

I wonder if the C5 guys get these challenges from ricers as well. Speak now or forever hold your peace C5 owners!

In all fairness, those WRX's are pretty nice vehicles and I don't think they should be compared to the average Civic or Celica. WRX is supercharged and AWD, so that's two advantages it has over a N/A, RWD Corvette.

Not to mention that the L98 engine is 11+ year old technology so if it's taken the ricers this long to catch up... I don't think the ricers would be so brash towards the ZR1's and they're not stupid enough to challenge Z06's.

As for the standard criteria:

1. Intake
2. Exhaust-however, a powerful exhaust tone could potentially intimidate ricers from challenging you!
3. Hypertech
4. 6 speed
5. Air foil

I think those should be a given. And they're easy to do and relatively inexpensive. But those are just starters. Of course dropping a ZZ4 in there would solve a lot of problems!

 

[BigRed]

Seems to me that the "Today" Formula for our L98's are the <Mini Ram, 383 Stroker/355 Fast Burn, Headers, and a borrowed component from the Ricers NOS!> Change our Gears out from 2.73's or 3.06's to 3.55's and 3.73's We'd kick they're Arses all over the block.

Reason why it seems to me we can't all get along as far as a precident of engine components is because how long have guys been fixing up Chevy 350's.....what 10,20,30 years? or more? Also given the fact a guy thats 45 years old who's car in 1970 was a Carb driven gas tank on wheels (No offense) was Cool now its DOHC 4 Valves per cynlinder Turbo driven technology that even God himself gets confused on this is the 20 year old generation Like myself. I'd take fuel injection over a Carb anyday but if you talk to an older crowd your gonna get a different response. Theres to many generations working on this motor BUT on the positive that 40 years of improvement thats 40 years of pick what you like Etc..

I treat my Car somewhat like a Harley Davidson If all Vettes were the same they'd lose there appeal. I think they are cool because they are a Direct reflection of the owner where a Tuner or a Mustang can't do that.

My 2 Cents

 

[58Vette65]

Have owned Corvettes off and on for 30 plus years so I guess that makes me one of those “Also given the fact a guy thats 45 years old who's car in 1970 was a Carb driven gas tank on wheels” types. You are right that fuel injection is the way to go there is something to say about a good old fashion carb. That smell of un-burnt fuel – the sucking of air and just being able to take the air cleaner off and see that gas spraying.

I get my kick for cursing down the road in a ’58 with a 327 balanced – bored 60 over – Nice Cam – running about 385 HP at the fly wheel and surprising not only the ricer (as you call them) but also the Z28 and Mustangs and yes from a 20mph rolling start I can give a stock C5 a real scare up to about 70 to 80. What I like most is being able to open the hood and see one fan belt with 18 inches of space on the side of the engine. That is my kind of fun!!!!!

 

[rrubel]

69myway - let's be realists. The WRX is a great car, and when the STi model arrives next year with almost 300 HP in a car 500+ lbs lighter than ours, you won't be able to touch it. Plus, AWD is a big advantage over traction control - the power gets to the ground instead of being retarded. Call me Vette traitor if you will, but I did sell an AWD turbo Subie (an RX, precursor to the WRX) to buy my Vette.

The problem comes in that what we Americans like and enjoy doesn't match well with the rest of the world. While American manufacturers have spent their money developing high-torque V8's that drink our cheap gas and love our wide open and above all STRAIGHT roads, the Europeans and Japanese have been forced to create small-displacement engines on cars that handle (narrow twisty roads, $5/gallon gas, and taxes based on engine size, for example). The WRX, stock, has the same 0-60 performance as my 86 (which, btw, is also the same as a BMW 850 CSi, with TWLEVE cylinders). Add a couple cheap mods (filter, blow-off valve, boost controller) and you're pushing the 5-second 0-60 barrier.

What's worse (better for them) is that the parent companies have performance parts divisions (Subaru has STi, Toyota has TRD, etc) that sell decently-priced parts that hop up your ride. What does GM do? Drop support for older cars. Actually, no. But glancing through their performance catalog, I see lots and lots of crate engines and packages and such that cost serious $$$ and are geared towards professional racers. Nothing for the average joe.

Part of the problem as I see it is that Gm need to put the Corvette on a serious diet. 3300-3400 lbs is about 600 lbs too heavy. There's only so far you can increase power for a reasonable amount and pretty soon the weight is going to hurt. That little WRX has only 227 hp and 220 lb-ft of torque. Each HP you add to it helps its overall performance a lot more than each HP you can eke from a Vette. Also, while not true for the Subaru engines, the Honda and Toyota 4-cylinders are VERY easy to work on. They're small, lightweight, and you can pull the whole engine almost without a hoist.

A common set of mods would be great, but when you set up something like that miniram and rails for $1500, plus good exhaust, plus cam, plus... you're pushing $5k - and you can buy a used Civic AND a supercharger kit AND an exhaust AND underdrive pulleys for that, and almost have enough left for a lowering kit.

But when you're done, you still have a Honda... and not a Plastic Fantastic with nearly 50 years of world-wide racing history behind it. I have some ricer neighbors, and they're *quite* jealous of the Vette, more for what it IS than what it can DO. Remember that...

It's late and I've rambled enough.
[RICHR]

 

[warren s]

Lets not forget some things about the WRX and the rest of the rice crowd, first of all, since i bought my used C4 it has been to raceway park multiple times, seen 150 mph atleast a dozen times and been through to many wide open throttle starts to count.

No matter how hard I run it, it will always be an under untilized 350 cubic inch motor spending most of its life at 2500 RPM. 10 years down the road my Vette will still be worth a pretty penny if I dont wrap it up.

The WRX on the other hand is a way differnt car. As all I have to do is plant my foot to the floor and my auto trans shifts gears in 1/10 of a second, the WRX driver must achive a perfect launch and not miss any shifts. Let the WRX owner try to "use" his car like I use mine and see what happens. Every time he opens it up its like turning on a 200 watt light bulb. If those cars are still onthe road in 5 years I would be very surprised. If its worth five bucks at that.

As for Vettes being built for our standards versus the jap way and the support or lack of by the factory- Well lets see, Um Japan to the best of my recollection did not even have a automotive after market befor the last few decades, as for GM of Chevy supporting its products with support and products- I have been purchasing speed equipment from GM and the aftermaerket since 1975, Thats back when Jap cars had less the 10% market share between all makes combined.


http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c4/c4s4ever/

 

[warren s]

Oh and rrubel I almost forgot, my mods the run a best of 13.39 cost me a total $850. That was for the Corsa exhaust..

 

[rrubel]

Warren, you think WRX owners don't race their cars? You think they don't spend time at Willow Grove or Lime Rock or Summit Point? It's a fast car - to drive it that way legally, you have to do track time. However, you'll also see them doing something you won't ever try in your Vette - rallycross. The cars were built for that (after all, it's Subaru's WRC homologation car) and can take more abuse than you or I can give them. And no, they won't be worth as much as your Vette in 10 years - but they also cost about half the price. And you think that WRX's can't come with auto transmissions? And don't forget - while we have only seen the WRX for a year, the rest of the world has been getting them and their competitors since the early 90's - and even the older ones are still worth a pretty penny.

And honestly - which is a better engine? One that redlines at 5500 and is comfortable at 2500, or one that's built to see 7500, stock, and laugh?

Oh, and your 13.39 may have cost you $850 in mods, but HOW much did you spend on your car itself?

Finally, I think you proved 69myway's point. You've been buying GM's speed equipment since 1975. Fine. BUT - it's been obsoleted by the new kids on the block who've grown up living under different rules but getting the same or better results. There may be no replacement for displacement, but adding twin turbos, a free-flowing exhaust, and a cone intake is a pretty close substitute.
[RICHR]

 

[Edmond]

What's worse (better for them) is that the parent companies have performance parts divisions (Subaru has STi, Toyota has TRD, etc) that sell decently-priced parts that hop up your ride. What does GM do? Drop support for older cars. Actually, no. But glancing through their performance catalog, I see lots and lots of crate engines and packages and such that cost serious $$$ and are geared towards professional racers. Nothing for the average joe.


[RICHR]

And Ford even has their SVT line! I think this lack of inside support is possibly what caused the demise of the F bodies, but that's a different story. Yeah, those crate engines are mucho dinero, at least for me at this point in my life.

Read an article in Car and Driver about LPE supercharging Corvette's. Everything is done for you, including dyno sheets to prove it, for roughly $9,000 or so. After LPE get's through with your vehicle, you'll even put stock Z06's to shame.

I think lining N/A cars with super/turbo charged cars isn't really a fair comparison. What if the Vette' were supercharged?

 

[Edmond]

remember when...

Anyone remember when Corvette's used to 2700 pounds? I think it all will eventually come down to the power/weight ratio. What else would explain the blistering acceleration of the Z06?