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rrubel

can you send me a link about that wagon? sounds interesting. 167 in a essentially stock motor, stock except for maybe the heads and bock and intake and exhaust?

V8s obsolete? can only push them so far? You mean like 405 hp out of a 350? And you say manufactures have moved away from them? Compare how many Jap cars sell per year to how many Pontiac Bonnevilles, Buick LeSabres, Gran Prix, Regals ect ect and Corvettes. Under head cam pushrod motors still out sell the rest.
 
Here's a link to the 167+ mph record run. BTW - I was wrong on one count - the engine was COMPLETELY stock. The car wasn't - it required a roll cage, 5-point harness, and some other safety stuff. Also, the test was run in Colorado, at altitude, and on public roads (closed for the test) and not on a smooth track.
http://www.subaru-global.com/about/history/1998-001.html

I need to dig up the 100k test run when I get home, unless it's also on that site somewhere.

Um, how many Jap cars sell per year? Let's see - the Accord and Camry are the two top selling cars in the country, with the Taurus a distant third - and the Taurus uses an OHV engine. GM's offerings don't even make the chart. The only popular vehicles with pushrod engines are trucks.

405 hp out of 5.7 liters is easy. 240 hp out of *2* liters is hard. An equivalent 5.7l engine using Honda's double-VTEC would put out almost 700 HP, normally aspirated.

[RICHR]
 
Vettes still rule the road

When I pull up to the valet at the club I'm glad that I'm not driving a recycled aluminum 9000rpm Japanese small car.(even if hsp to wt ratio is good)
My legs fit better in a clean classic Corvette that commands a little more respect.(and is a better investment)
If I wanted an import I'd buy a German car with a V8.
Its more like a Corvette than an Asian car, but the cost is not a good value; for me.
I'd rather spend my $ on an American classic that has class, character, and is a great driver.
I could go all out naturally asperated push rod motor in a sweet '96 vette and spend under $32K.
That is less than a used Mercedes or a new rice rocket and it would be a classic that rules the road.
These are only my opinions.
The great thing about America is that if you work hard enough you can have the one that you like best or one of each.
I'll only buy GM; unless we start talking about my dirt bikes.
Chris N :L
Great thread Chris; you vette drivers seem pretty well educated unlike many ricers.
 
The Accord and the Camry are the top selling cars for years, however the GM 3.8 and 3.1 litre over head valve engines were the most produced consumer automotive engines from 2000 to present. ( will get the link back) Multiple platforms share the same motor. Considering also the impact of SUVs using overhead valve pushrod technology I would hardly say the manufactures are moving away from them.

As for 240 hp out of 2 litres, to me it’s a high tech time bomb. Why shoud should we go in that direction when we have the luxury of larger displacement engines? I have worked on many turbo imports and after 50k its down hill if driven aggressively. I would rather have a low-tech high torque engine than a turbo boosted 180 cube 4 banger.
 
I heard a rumor from a credible source....

That the current push rod LS1 platform, as well as the Northstar, and the new in line six have all been designed with the capacity to remove the cam all together.

Wait, it gets better. According to my source, GM has been experimenting with electronic solenoids that sit on top of the head and actuate the valves. These engines are already on the road in experimental vehicles.

Here is the deal. With no cam, the profile of the engine can be changed with a touch of a button. They are developing engines based on the LS1 that have gobbs of low end torque, but as you accelerate they continuously change the cam profile adding more overlap, lift, and duration extending the rev capacity into the stratosphere.

This platform allows for new modular buildling technology that allows the same in line six or LS1 style V8 to power everything from the family station wagon with ultra high MPG, to the high output Vette, and the SUV. All can be done with a change of a computer program.

My source has done some testing with the engine and says that is is out of this world.


Can you imagine the possiblities?

Volvo has been testing with an engine that has a "adjustable" head gasket. This engine can raise and lower the compression ratio based on fuel, temp, load, and driving needs. It can swing the hsp as much as 150 extra ponies with variable valve timing, and still get 40 mpg.
 
That sounds sweet. So if you couldn't afford a Vette or Caddy with that engine setup to produce power, but knew your computer schtick, you could buy a lower end car and reprogram the engine to the performance you want?

-tjay
 
Warren, here's the endurance record link: <http://www.subaru-global.com/about/history/1989-001.html>. It was 100000 KM, btw, not 100000 miles, but it was 62000 miles at an average speed (including pit stop time) of 138 mph. In a stock-but-for-safety-devices car randomly picked off the assembly line by FIA.

And I wouldn't say that high-revving turbo 4's go downhill after 50k miles. Mine was still running strong at 167k miles, and will be rally'd now.

69MyWay - was that Volvo, or Saab, that was experimenting with the adjustable head gasket? One of those companies has an engine that will actually tilt the head to raise/lower compression.

Back to GM... the Northstar engine is nice, and IMHO the way GM should have been going with the Vette. The LT5 was a nice DOHC engine, but not made in-house.

You all are annoyed at getting beat by rice; what about the new Caddy based on the Evoq? Build around the Vette platform, but powered by a Northstar-derived engine (and assembled at BG). But it's a luxury supercar with an OHC engine.

Sorry, I love my Vette, but I feel that it's been essentially abandoned by GM and nothing *we* can do with our own cars will make them better than the current batch of HO 4's - which will only get better. Heck, GM is the company that brought you the Aztec and is basically ignoring the Vette's 50th birthday. Mmmm... decals. *NOW* is the time to introduce some spectacular engine package that would make you all happy. But what do we get? More suspension options and some decals. Oh joy.
[RICHR]
 
rrubel said:

69MyWay - was that Volvo, or Saab, that was experimenting with the adjustable head gasket? One of those companies has an engine that will actually tilt the head to raise/lower compression.

[RICHR]


Oops, I think you are right about that. Sorry for the mix up. Where the head gasket would normally be so to speak, it sort of hinges on the block and squeezes up and own like an accordian (spelling?) to produce the desired changes.
 
Rrubel

Well I guess we just have a difference of opinions, I was a mechanic before going into the IT field and was able to afford a Vette by repairing high output 4s and 6s, if you got 167,000 miles out of a 4cyl turbo motor without major work, God bless you!

If you feel the HO 4s available today are superior to the recent C4s and current C5s I guess that’s your opinion. While I do respect the build quality of some rice machines, I have never been beat by even a majorly modified one and don’t consider them even in the same class as my 95 LT1.
 
Since the topic of this thread has managed to stray way off of what I believe Chris originally intended, I will weigh in from left field.

Most of you know I'm a purist at heart and view my Vette almost exclusively as a cruiser. Since I bought the Vette, my respect for others, including the ricers, has increased dramatically.

Though I think the visual effects they go for is just out and out disgusting, I am more than a little impressed with what some of those cars can do. As for them taking on a Vette, even a Z06 or ZR-1, what do they have to lose? If some guy in a wild rice bottle-fed Civic pumping 300+ horses challenges a Vette with 400+ horses he has absolutely nothing to lose. Afterall, if he loses, he lost to an all out beast; if he wins he now has the biggest grin possible. All it takes is one driver slip up and even my paltry little pushrod V-6 Z-24 can dust off many takers with nothing more than a chip, ported heads and upper and lower intakes, and a TB.

As for them not having any respect for Vettes, I have to disagree. On many occasions I have hung around the local Saturday cruise-in later than I intend die to a deep conversation with friends. Once the sun goes down, the ricers and the newr 'stangs and f-bods show up. Without exception some of the ricers will stroll by and ogle my car. Do they respect the power that it has or doesn't have, maybe/maybe not. But, they do almost always respect it for the marquee and history behind it. I have had conversations with many who have asked what it'll do. When I tell them they immediately start talking about how much you can do to a SBC. Many of them have even adopted the montra (?sp) of the Chrysler guys - they refer to my SBC as a poor man's hot rod just because there are so many of them and there are so many parts out there.

Well I know I got off topic and maybe I didn't really make a point but I aired my opinion to an extent:eyerole. When Kelly and I finally do get a C4 or C5 we (I) probably will do a few mods just as I have with the Shark but will I race it? Who knows, only time will tell. In the Shark, I prefer to get it out on a twister and open it up all by myself and just feel the drumming of the motor.

In closing, I agree with Chris that there is a problem, to an extent, with the lack of cohesion with what mods are being done but to each his own.

Rambling mode off....:L:L
 
I have never been beat by even a majorly modified one and don’t consider them even in the same class as my 95 LT1.

Of course they are in a different class, because they are built for a different market. I think we should be glad the "ricer" crowd takes as much pride in their cars as we do in ours. Better to be spending money on silly body kits/wings/turbos/etc on their own car, then out keying, egging, beating up yours right?

Side Note: With all the talk of turbos, etc......In your eyes, where do Typhoons and Syclones fit in? Many stock Phoons and Sys still eat rice for dinner, not to mention many Vettes, Rustangs, etc. Where do you place them in the grand scheme of things? or this this topic Specifically talking about Hight Output imports? Cause soon you'll have to start looking out for the the Neon SRT and modded Ford Focuses (wouldn't it be Ford Foci plural? :L :L ) etc. The big 3 are starting to catch on to the small engine, big performance bug.

On Topic: With cars getting more and more computer controlled, won't it become increasingly harder to get a standardized list of mods? I mean, even Ty's and Sy's are relatively oldschool in terms of computer controlled engines, but for strictly that reason, the computer, they seem to be real picky when it comes to successful modification. Just curious.

Like Eric said, ramble mode off. :L

-tjay
 
69myway...Sorry but you mistook what I was saying...my comments were not directed at you or anyone else for that matter. I would not call anyone a fool even if it was proved. I am a Mason and respect everyone for who they are and whatever their collective opinion may be. If you read my earlier post I did say apply the adage to driving the vette. Instead of jumping at every person that wants to see what the ole vette has...I let them go. So what if they think they beat a vette..I could care less. Being a year away from 50 I have learned my lessons and as a former Marine Pilot I would venture to say I have been faster then most, from flying F-4's at 1600mph to Cessna's at 120mph. From my 750 Kawasaki triple, a 10 second out of the box stock bike to a 914/6 Porsche that would do every bit of 250.
Now I just like keeping my car in the best shape possible and cruise every chance I get. I get more comments on how good it looks versus how well it runs past other cars. I see no need to take a chance on hurting myself, the car or others. It is not worth the risk. Can't say I grew up....just grew out of it.
Again I apoligize if you took it wrong, it was not meant that way.
 
You know , i was just thinking back to the late 60's and early 70's and I was driving a 70 350/350 vette conv. One of my buddies bought a new Datsun 240 Z. I hate to admit it but, he gave me one hell of a run. Didnt beat me , but i really had to hang out the vette . And we went to about 140 mph. That was a 6 cyl. Kinda scary. .....But i didnt go buy one , I bought headers and some carb work and better tires . The ricers are here to stay and thats fine . It will still cost them money to run with the big cube guys with mods . Maybe its" WHOOP-TE-DO FOR THE SUBARU " but I'll keep doing what ever it takes to WHIP THEIR RICE PADDY A**ES!!!.........:D :laugh
 
Geometry, my son...

I drive the weakest year C4 with only 205hp out of the factory (as mine runs now I have around 230hp). I don't drive it cause it will blow most cars off the road (which it will), I drive it cause I just plain love it and I love the looks I get from nearly everyone I pass. I also have a heavily modded 600 ninja that will blow any car off the line--it is currently gathering dust in the garage. The problem with a list of mods to follow is where you start. My crossfire L83 engine would need a lot more love than an L89 or LT1 to get the kinda power it would take to compete with $20k worth of modified rice (not counting the ugly spoilers, clear taillights or thousand watt stereos).
Rob--Fast and the Furious is one of my favorites too. Did you notice that in the end the blown charger still beat (or at least kept up with) the NOS equipped rice banger and that is with someting frying in the engine too. Gotta love Hollyweird.
--Drew:w :bu
 
mxout165

The turbo cars and trucks built by GM I view as on par with the Corvette as far a stright line performance. Its to bad low sales and the insurance industry killed the 4.3 Typhoon. Maybe the ricers forgot we have been there and done that with Turbos already. (not even counting the turbo-supercharged B-29 bomber from 1944)

My brother has an 87 T-Type and it really is a "Really buzzin half dozzen". They are larger displacement engines in a medium size American style car, and they dont need performance mods almost equal in price to the prichase price of the vehicle to run really fast.
 
The turbo cars and trucks built by GM I view as on par with the Corvette as far a stright line performance

Don't forget, on a wet track, a '93 Ty beat a '93 Vette. ;) :) Compliments of the AWD mostly, but I gotta say, I think my Ty is much better in the twisties than my '81 Vette. But again, much of that is 11 years of technology advances.

Maybe the ricers forgot we have been there and done that with Turbos already.
:upthumbs

I like that one. That's one thing, I knew if I decided to get hooked on boost, it had to be American Boost. You never know what quality you'll get with that foreign stuff. :L :L (sadly, that foreign stuff is way more reliable than my Ty, but then again, I don't expect a 2 year, limited production performance machine to have the reliability of a Honda. :L)

I'm still a firm believer that GM should offer a big-block Vette again. :D Then you wouldn't have to worry about trying to find some easy mods. Rice would simply be an appetizer at best.

-tjay
 
The Typhoon was a turbocharged built-up Blazer and the Syclone was a turbo'd S-10 pickup made from 92-93, IIRC. They were screamingly fast (C&D beat a Ferrari 348 in the 1/4 mi with a Syclone), limited production, and in the case of the Syclone limited usability (100-lb load limit in the cargo bed, no ground clearance, no tiedowns in the bed... essentially a Corvette minus two cylinders and plus a patio). I *think* the engines were derivatives of the GN/ Regal T-Type 4.3 turbos.

[RICHR]
 
The Gn's and t-types were 3.8 buick v6's .....3800's

Yet another turbo'd car that could, with the right driver, outrun the Vettes of their day in a straight line. But what would you rather be seen cruisin in, a GN or a Vette with the top down? Oops, that's right, no convertible GNs:t:L.

The big 3 are starting to catch on to the small engine, big performance bug.
T Jay,
You're more right than you realize.

Here are two recent GM press releases regarding the J-bodies and the ecotec 4-bangers in them:

GM Performance Parts Announces New Race Parts For ECOTEC Engine

Long Beach, Calif. - General Motors announced today that GM Performance Parts is offering consumers new race parts for the ECOTEC Engine.

Four new race parts are now available for consumers who race their Chevrolet Cavaliers and Pontiac Sunfires with ECOTEC engines. The four parts now available are both intake and exhaust camshaft blanks, an adjustable cam gear set, a head gasket and O-ring kit, and a neutral balance shaft set. An additional ten parts are in the pipeline and will be available later this year. Bill Fitzgerald, GM Performance Parts manager, said GM Racing has put a year of development into this drag-race engine. "They've had great success, and now we want to share that success with the public for the do-it-yourself racer."

Fitzgerald added, "We've decided to sell what we race and race what we sell." The intake and exhaust camshaft blanks are stock cam blanks with finished journals and unfinished lobes. Engine builders can grind their favorite cam profiles on them.

The adjustable cam gear set allows valve timing to be advanced or retarded up to 16 degrees of crankshaft rotation. It includes both intake and exhaust camshaft gears.

The head gasket and O-ring set will reduce cylinder bore distortion and improve cylinder sealing at high horsepower or boost levels. Instructions are included for special machining to head and block required for installation. The kit includes a soft copper head gasket and four one-piece stainless steel O-rings.

The neutral balance shaft set is used to replace the stock balance shafts in a high-speed performance engine. It includes two balance shafts. Consumers can purchase the new performance parts from any GM Performance Parts dealer. To locate your closest dealer, call 1-800-GM USE US or visit www.Goodwrench.com.

GM Performance Parts Announces New Supercharger Kit

Long Beach, Calif. - General Motors announced today that GM Performance Parts is offering consumers a new 2.4L Twin Cam supercharger kit for Chevrolet Cavalier and Pontiac Sunfire to maximize their horsepower and torque.

"We've seen an explosion of new parts for past model imports all aimed at performance. GM is seizing the opportunity to utilize the talent of both GM Racing and GM Performance Parts engineers to make our small cars go even faster on the track," said Bill Fitzgerald, GM Performance Parts manager.

Dan Garrison, GM Performance Parts product specialist explained the performance of small cars has been improving over the past few years. "With each new model year, manufacturers are one-upping each other with more power, better brakes and bigger tires: all this in a segment of the market that was once classified as economy minded and not sporty transportation," he said.

This integral "roots-type" supercharger and manifold design was developed to maximize both engine horsepower and torque without sacrificing durability. "The integral design gives the supercharger a [clean] factory look and is [GM] factory engineered making it the only supercharger available that meets GM engineering standards," Fitzgerald said.

The supercharger also has its own unique Vehicle Control Module calibration ensuring performance and driveability. And, the GM Performance Parts supercharger adds over 40 lb/ft of torque and 190 horsepower. The end result is a reliable, compact powertrain that has more power than many V-6 engines.

The supercharger kit contains all the hardware required for a complete installation in one box. All mounting brackets, fasteners, air ducts, adapters, PCV hoses, baffle and tubes are included. A Gen II MAP sensor, 4 spark plugs, accessory drive belt and 4 fuel injectors also are included and required for a complete installation. The cost of re-calibration of the Vehicle Control Module also is included in the kit but must be performed at an authorized GM dealership.

Installation requires only normal technician hand tools, with the exception of re-calibration of the on-board Vehicle Control Module. The VCM must be done at an authorized GM dealership. Although no official "book time" exists for this kit, experienced technicians have completed an entire installation within a single day.

The 2.4L Twin Cam supercharger kit carries a product warranty covering the complete kit for defects in material and workmanship for a period of 12 months or 12,000 miles from date of installation. In addition to the product warranty, this supercharger kit will cover the powertrain (internally lubricated engine and transmission components) for the length of the original factory powertrain warranty. If the vehicle is already out of factory warranty, the additional powertrain warranty still applies depending on the age and actual mileage of the vehicle at time of installation.

Consumers can purchase the new 2.4L Twin Cam supercharger kit from any GM Performance Parts dealer. To locate your closest dealer, call 1-800-GM USE US or visit www.Goodwrench.com.

SPO, headquartered in Grand Blanc, Mich., markets automotive replacement parts and accessories worldwide under the GM and ACDelco brand names. For more information, visit the GM Goodwrench Service Plus web site at www.Goodwrench.com or visit your local GM Dealer.

GM News Release 4/18/02

Go Bowtie!
- Eric
 

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