Just Say "No" To E15

[timfitz63]

Wasn't quite sure where on the forum to post this for maximum visibility; Moderators can feel free to move it accordingly.

Haven't seen much media coverage about this:

Warnings Not to Use 'E15' Gas In Your Car | Fox Business

Although GM is not listed among them, the long and short of it is that several car manufacturers say that using E15 (not widely available -- yet) in your car will cause engine and fuel system damage not covered under your warranty -- and may actually void your warranty... :eek

Just submitted FYI...

 

[dcsteg]

I always use ethanol free gas in my Z06.

Using E 10 in my other cars, when I have no choice, always cuts my mileage about 2 miles per gallon.

This stuff is just awful. Reduced mileage and power. Another EPA junk mandate.

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

Anybody actually ever seen a station selling E15?

No, me neither.

 

[timfitz63]

Anybody actually ever seen a station selling E15?

No, me neither.

Not yet. The Fox video report flashed a graphic saying that there are only a handful of stations in the Midwest (KS, NE, etc.) selling it right now.

But, it's coming -- if the EPA gets its way...

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

Not yet. The Fox video report flashed a graphic saying that there are only a handful of stations in the Midwest (KS, NE, etc.) selling it right now.

But, it's coming -- if the EPA gets its way...

The end of the world is coming too, but I'll deal with it when it gets here. Most gas stations also sell diesel. I don't put that in my car. Why would I use E15 even if it was available?

Did it occur to anyone that the talking head from AOL (hey, there's a credible source) had no idea what she was babbling about? She contradicts herself by saying that not much research was done then talks about how much HAS been done. Also gets the concept of phase separation bass ackwards. Yes E15 is dumb idea but not a dumb as this 'news' report.

 

[timfitz63]

The end of the world is coming too, but I'll deal with it when it gets here. Most gas stations also sell diesel. I don't put that in my car. Why would I use E15 even if it was available?

Did it occur to anyone that the talking head from AOL (hey, there's a credible source) had no idea what she was babbling about? She contradicts herself by saying that not much research was done then talks about how much HAS been done. Also gets the concept of phase separation bass ackwards. Yes E15 is dumb idea but not a dumb as this 'news' report.

Whatever, dude. Put water in your tank for all I care; it's your car... :eyerole There are folks out there who don't stay as well-informed as you and I; maybe they'd benefit from the knowledge...? And E15 may become all that's available if the EPA has its way -- so none of us will have a choice about what to put in the tank...

The point is AAA is telling people not to use E15; several manufacturers won't cover warranty claims they may trace to the use of E15. And we all seem to be in agreement that ethanol is detrimental to engine and fuel system components (seals, etc.). So why are you picking nits with the messenger(s)...? ;squint:

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

So why are you picking nits with the messenger(s)...? ;squint:

No need to take offence. Just pointing out that typical of Fox and AOL, they're got their facts confused and make a laughing stock out of themselves by trying to make a big fuss. Must have been a slow news day. Too bad Emily Litella is no longer with us, her classic 'never mind' would fit right in here. There's a lot of talking in that piece, but very little credible 'knowledge' for the average consumer.

The chances of E15 ever making it to market in a widespread manner are just about nil, never mind it replacing E10.

 

[timfitz63]

No need to take offence. Just pointing out that typical of Fox and AOL, they're got their facts confused and make a laughing stock out of themselves by trying to make a big fuss. Must have been a slow news day. Too bad Emily Litella is no longer with us, her classic 'never mind' would fit right in here. There's a lot of talking in that piece, but very little credible 'knowledge' for the average consumer...

Fair enough. In reviewing their discussion a second time, you're correct: they didn't quite get all the science accurately relayed about phase separation. Still, the final result is the same: your engine could be harmed if phase separation occurs... But the real danger with an increase in ethanol content is to rubber seals, fuel system components, and such.

I myself didn't interpret the report as making a 'fuss' -- at least no more than any other news outlet does with stories like these. And just because Fox and/or AOL were involved in reporting the story doesn't mean it's any less legitimate a story. But that discussion is a bit beyond the scope of this thread... I will agree that they somehow manged to cram about 15 seconds of consumer-alert information (AAA warns don't use E15; some manufacturers won't honor warranty claims if you do) into a 5-minute news video...

... The chances of E15 ever making it to market in a widespread manner are just about nil, never mind it replacing E10.

Well, I certainly hope you're correct about that. Personally, I'd like to see E10 go away as well...

 

[killain]

Alcohol & Ethanol ?

Well I've heard a ton of negative feedback from a whole lot of Repair technicians and gear-heads alike, They can't all be wrong. Alcohol will dry out most anything washed with it. Alcohol is the same thing only called Ethanol, and I'm only too well versed in the damage that ethanol can do to a metal/rubber/cork type of sealing systems. It eats away at them over time. I have a friend from South America and he has told me that the majority of autos down there are Japanese, and are imported with Stainless steel fuel system for the fact that almost all of SA uses E-85. But for me, I only know that the 2007 Pontiac Grand Prix GT with a 3.8 liter supercharged engine that I own states on page 338 of the owners manual that "This car must have a minimum octane rating of at Least 91 octane and use no fuel with an ethanol content of 10% or greater." And why can''t we stick to 10% ethanol ? Your MPG drops significantly with the use of ethanol.

Now I know the alcohol and water doesn't mix, and I'm no chemical engineer, but I think I understand the phase separation is simple enough, Alcohol/ethanol weighs more than oil so the ethanol is going to live on the bottom of you fuel tank along with your fuel pump pickup. But I have to admit I never thought about the refineries cutting the octane rating of 'the' gasoline being blended as the ethanol has a very high octane rating on it's own and since your going to use up the ethanol first, your engines 'Knock sensor' is going to be getting a real workout once your fuel guage is below 3/4 tank.

But their are some zealot's for the greater use of ethanol, (I can only assume they own stock in corn futures or some deal like that. We all want clean air, but do we have to shave time off our engines life cycle to get it ? Since GM is going all "Direct Injection" now, I can't help but to think that the ethanol/alcohol mix isn't all that great an idea. Guess since my GMPP warranty runs out in August 2013 I assume I'll find out soon afterward. But as of now, E-15 isn't sold in the Delaware Valley just yet. I have seen at the Home-Depot and Auto-zone a product made by Lucas oil and other companies with the name of "Ethanol remedy" and on it's label it states it "Offsets" the damaging effects of ethanol on Gasoline engines, lawn and garden and automotive use as well. Only furthering my suspicion that the things that take place with-in the DC beltway are as toxic & corrupt as always. And in the end, we the consumer gets it. What a way to run a country. ad

 

[Hib Halverson]

No need to take offence. Just pointing out that typical of Fox and AOL, they're got their facts confused and make a laughing stock out of themselves by trying to make a big fuss. Must have been a slow news day. Too bad Emily Litella is no longer with us, her classic 'never mind' would fit right in here. There's a lot of talking in that piece, but very little credible 'knowledge' for the average consumer.

The chances of E15 ever making it to market in a widespread manner are just about nil, never mind it replacing E10.

While I agree that the chances of E10 being replaced by E15 are remote, I disagree with "Vettehead Mikey" on the statement that the chances of it making it to market are "...just about nil". There's a lot of momentum for sale of E15 fired by what's known variously as the "corn lobby" or the "ethanol lobby". There's also a lot of support for it amongst various environmentalist activist organizations and in government, such as EPA. With Pres. Obama on record that "global warming" will be a key issue in his second term is also driving E15 to a certain extent.

I was wondering, "Vettehead Mikey" if you could post the facts you have which refute the reports by Fox News and AOL on the E15 issue.

 

[gmjunkie]

Anybody actually ever seen a station selling E15?

No, me neither.

Yep,Quite a few of them in Missouri actually!

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

I was wondering, "Vettehead Mikey" if you could post the facts you have which refute the reports by Fox News and AOL on the E15 issue.

Which specifics? The one where the 'reporter' contradicts herself by saying that not much research has been done then immediately claims that she has done a lot of testing herself (?)

She states that it causes damage to smog system, engines etc. Pretty vague claims. How come she has evidence that the OEMs don't?

She says that it only affects 2012 and earlier cars. What did the OEMs do for the 2013 cars that make E15 suddenly OK?

She incorrectly states that the ethanol is delivered separately to the filling stations and is held in it's own tank and only mixed at the pump.

She states that the gasoline and ethanol separate in the gas tank (for unstated reasons) into stratified layers- and this constitutes 'phase separation'. No mention is made of the third component required for actual phase separation to actually occur. No water, no separation.

She then states that she knows of brand new vehicles with rotted out fuel lines, but not directly, only through unnamed third parties. Really?

A claim is made, on the presumption that the alcohol and gasoline separate fully and do not remix by the normal motion of the vehicle while driving, (?) that the gasoline at the top of the tank is 84 octane and that this will damage the engine through detonation. Ummm, knock sensors? Pretty much standard on engines since the late 90s I think.

I don't think she did her numbers properly that the removal of 15% ethanol by vol at 99AKi from 87 AKI gas will leave 84 AKI gas.

Aside from that, not a bad report.

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

Yep,Quite a few of them in Missouri actually!

E15 or E85?

 

[dcsteg]

Well I've heard a ton of negative feedback from a whole lot of Repair technicians and gear-heads alike, They can't all be wrong. Alcohol will dry out most anything washed with it. Alcohol is the same thing only called Ethanol, and I'm only too well versed in the damage that ethanol can do to a metal/rubber/cork type of sealing systems. It eats away at them over time. I have a friend from South America and he has told me that the majority of autos down there are Japanese, and are imported with Stainless steel fuel system for the fact that almost all of SA uses E-85. But for me, I only know that the 2007 Pontiac Grand Prix GT with a 3.8 liter supercharged engine that I own states on page 338 of the owners manual that "This car must have a minimum octane rating of at Least 91 octane and use no fuel with an ethanol content of 10% or greater." And why can''t we stick to 10% ethanol ? Your MPG drops significantly with the use of ethanol.

Now I know the alcohol and water doesn't mix, and I'm no chemical engineer, but I think I understand the phase separation is simple enough, Alcohol/ethanol weighs more than oil so the ethanol is going to live on the bottom of you fuel tank along with your fuel pump pickup. But I have to admit I never thought about the refineries cutting the octane rating of 'the' gasoline being blended as the ethanol has a very high octane rating on it's own and since your going to use up the ethanol first, your engines 'Knock sensor' is going to be getting a real workout once your fuel guage is below 3/4 tank.

But their are some zealot's for the greater use of ethanol, (I can only assume they own stock in corn futures or some deal like that. We all want clean air, but do we have to shave time off our engines life cycle to get it ? Since GM is going all "Direct Injection" now, I can't help but to think that the ethanol/alcohol mix isn't all that great an idea. Guess since my GMPP warranty runs out in August 2013 I assume I'll find out soon afterward. But as of now, E-15 isn't sold in the Delaware Valley just yet. I have seen at the Home-Depot and Auto-zone a product made by Lucas oil and other companies with the name of "Ethanol remedy" and on it's label it states it "Offsets" the damaging effects of ethanol on Gasoline engines, lawn and garden and automotive use as well. Only furthering my suspicion that the things that take place with-in the DC beltway are as toxic & corrupt as always. And in the end, we the consumer gets it. What a way to run a country. ad

Good post.

 

[Hib Halverson]

Which specifics? The one where the 'reporter' contradicts herself by saying that not much research has been done then immediately claims that she has done a lot of testing herself (?)

She states that it causes damage to smog system, engines etc. Pretty vague claims. How come she has evidence that the OEMs don't?
(snip)
Aside from that, not a bad report.

I didn't not see the report you say but you're right, FNC and AOL have joined much of the rest of the mainstream media with shitty reporting on the E15 issue.

I'll add that it's possible one reason she didn't offer any evidence the OEs may have is that OEs don't care about older vehicles and they want to be considered "good citizens" by the EPA so they don't offer any discouraging words because the only vehicles they care about–those under warranty–are likely somewhat compatible with E15.

That said, I am glad Fox and AOL are at least covering the issue. The only way E15 is going to be "stopped" is if people are informed.

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

That said, I am glad Fox and AOL are at least covering the issue. The only way E15 is going to be "stopped" is if people are informed.

On the other hand, I'm the type that stops listening at the first sign of misinformed BS and sky-is-falling hysteria, so their over the top double talk reporting does more harm than good.

Yes, E15 is a crock of sh*t as is E10 and E85 but I'm not sure that the AOL/Fox way of 'informing' consumers is the best bang for the buck. It simply encourages misguided attempts to avoid the issue and encourages the snake oil salesmen to come up with more ineffective miracles in a can to 'fix' it. I'm sure the Seafoam, Stabil and Startron marketeers are some of the biggest supporters of E15. :eyerole

 

[Mac]

On the other hand, I'm the type that stops listening at the first sign of misinformed BS and sky-is-falling hysteria, so their over the top double talk reporting does more harm than good.

Yes, E15 is a crock of sh*t as is E10 and E85 but I'm not sure that the AOL/Fox way of 'informing' consumers is the best bang for the buck. It simply encourages misguided attempts to avoid the issue and encourages the snake oil salesmen to come up with more ineffective miracles in a can to 'fix' it. I'm sure the Seafoam, Stabil and Startron marketeers are some of the biggest supporters of E15. :eyerole

It's the nature of today's media, Mikey. If they can't shock you, they don't believe you will listen. They cater to 10 second attention spans with nice short sentences and easy to spell words. Tuning them out is tempting but occasionally a nugget of truth gets passed over if you ignore them completely.

-Mac

 

[Hib Halverson]

On the other hand, I'm the type that stops listening at the first sign of misinformed BS and sky-is-falling hysteria, so their over the top double talk reporting does more harm than good.

Yes, E15 is a crock of sh*t as is E10 and E85 but I'm not sure that the AOL/Fox way of 'informing' consumers is the best bang for the buck. It simply encourages misguided attempts to avoid the issue and encourages the snake oil salesmen to come up with more ineffective miracles in a can to 'fix' it. I'm sure the Seafoam, Stabil and Startron marketeers are some of the biggest supporters of E15. :eyerole

I'm trying to understand if you are discounting the move towards E15, railing against it, taking shots at pour-in additive makers or just are amp'ed up against FNC.

In any event, there's quite a bit of momentum behind E15.

Right now so-called "E10" actually runs about 7-8% ethanol. If E15 is forced on us, it will double the amount of alcohol in the fuel and legend has it that older vehicles, say those built prior to the mid-00s may have problems with it.

If there's any sliver lining, it's that the "wind is blowing" towards a system which will require gasoline retailers to have separate pumps for E15.

One reason E85 cars have different fuel systems using a lot of stainless steel is the corrosive nature of E85. E15, while less corrosive, will just damage some fuel system parts at a slower rate.

Also, the decrease in fuel mileage that comes with "normal" alcohol-blended fuel will be greater with E15, but...if your a corn farmer, you'll be lovin' it.

 

[Mac]

I'm trying to understand if you are discounting the move towards E15, railing against it, taking shots at pour-in additive makers or just are amp'ed up against FNC.

Mikey and I both go back a long way on forums so I feel confident in saying he is a skeptic who isn't trying to kick anyone in the shins.

From what I've read in this thread, I would say Mikey....

• doesn't like E15 or other 'alternative' fuels for today's vehicles
  
• doesn't think highly of snake oil OR pour-in additives
• doesn't think highly of media who can't be bothered to research before they start scare-mongering
• doesn't figure the fuel companies are going to get much traction on ethanol added fuels without significant changes in both engine design AND consumer preferences

but I stand to be corrected.

-Mac

 

[Huskerman]

but...if your a corn farmer, you'll be lovin' it.

Hell yeah.....use that ethanol up....10,15,20,30%.......it ain't gonna hurt you our your car. Out here we can blend it at the pump. We love the stuff! Now the fact that most of the ethanol plants in the State are shut down because of the high price of a bushel of corn should make you naysayers happy.....also now they are saying there is 130 trillion dollars worth of oil yet to be tapped here in the good ole USA on lands they control, so maybe we should put some energy towards developing those resources and using that to pay down the debt. But no matter, as long as the gubberment say's we still need an oxygenator in the fuel ethanol will be around for a long time..........let's see what color should I get that new C7.......