Ken's Engine Project...

[Tom Bryant]

Ken,
I think that you have every right to question any item than is priced higher that commonly advertised prices.

Tom

 

[Jack]

Bill Mitchell 509 ci/540hp 4-bolt, forged crank & rods Big Block complete from pan to carb w/HEI has 2-year/24K mile warranty. Probably more fun than anybody's got a right to and ready to ship from Summit for $7500 ... maybe less elsewhere.
JACK:gap

 

[Rowdy1]

I Agree With 59Tom

I know the anxiety attacks from trying to decide how "radical" to go for a street car. I went through the same thing exactly. I waited almost six weeks for the cam I run because it was back ordered and trust me, that was painful as I had all the other parts sitting there waiting and it was my first season with the car. And once you decide how much HP you want, then what to use, made by who built by who. I did a lot of comparison pricing building my engine and even though a very close friend and I built it, I ordered ALL the parts. I had help knowing what to order from what I said I wanted, as far as matching valve springs to the cam, head gasket thickness, intake, cnc, port matching on and on. I will say this, unless you have money to give away and are not worried about the total cost, shop around. I personally think some of the items on your list are high also and I agree with Tom 100%. I of course wish you luck, but building an engine isn't luck. It's knowledge, tried and true. Don't be in a hurry, do it once, do it right, for the right price.

 

[Ken]

Whoa!! On second thought...

...maybe the prices are a little out of range. :eek

I just spent the past several hours comparison shopping and discovered that almost every price that was listed in the earlier post (before I deleted that embarrassing image) was way too high.

It looks like we're either gonna take a different approach here or I'm going to have to find another builder. I don't mind paying top-dollar for top-quality work, but to jack the purchase price up so high and use that as a way to make some extra money is simply more than necessary.

It's back to the discussion table.

_ken

 

[Rowdy1]

Now We're Thinking

Good move. Not to say "they" see you coming when you already have the American dream car and you start talking a major motor but it may tend to make some think you're made of $$$$$$ or just don't care as long as you get what you want. I'd seriously look in to the crate motor's available. I have a friend that says machine shops are going to be a thing of the past as they can't compete with the catalog deals. Hang in there Bro.

 

[Ken]

I'm so far into the idea of building my own now Lou :gap, that I don't really want to go back to a crate, even though realistically it is much more of of an economical approach.

_ken

 

[Bullitt]

With a lot of crate motors going around, what I see are "machined motors." Engine builders taking a proven combo and mass producing it, so I think that it's the builders' way of adapting. Competing with GM is hard, but there's still a considerable amount of hp left on the floor by the stock castings, depite computer this and computer that. So, I think machinist will still be around, searching for that last proven horse to do battle with.

Ken, have you tried contacting AutoMasters in California? Just to get an idea of what they could do and a price to quote you? I can give you a number of a shop in San Diego that did the conversion 454 in a C4 with a modified fuel injection unit. It's the same place I was talking to Chris about in the "Fuel Injection" thread in the '68-'82 forum. If you want, I'll try to scan the article and get it to you, but I'm a bit of a novice in resizing and such. ;help

On the flywheel, are you going to go with a billet steel piece or aluminum? I heard that while aluminum is lighter and has easier rev up, it may not be the best for the street. While billet steel is heavier, it gives a better launch feel and is suitly intended for road use. I haven't done too much research on it myself, but if anyone can lend any ideas, I'd be interested.

Good luck, Ken. --Bullitt

 

[Bullitt]

I could be wrong, but the LS6 just might be pushing Ken a bit overboard, as far as modifcations and California emissions go. Ken here's what I found from the F.I. post, of course written by myself.

The 454 C4 conversion article is in the August 1998 issue of Vette magazine. The place is called, The Corvette Shop/TPI Performance Center in San Diego, CA. The guys who performed the extensive modifications are Larry Hofer and Dave Stanley. They removed 3 1/2" from the runners, so that it fit under the stock hood. With slicks and an all-aluminum engine, it ran a 11.49@120.29mph. They were having tranny problems, going through two in no time at all.

This was with a Can-Am Rat motor, so I don't think you'll suffer the same problems of the driveline.

4645 Ruffner St.
Suite H
San Diego, CA 92111
619-268-3278

--Bullitt

 

[Viper 10]

Ken:

I would use caution on puttng a 454 or larger into your C4 if you are going to continue venturing out onto the road racing circuits. The reason is that the weight distribution and handling will be altered pretty dramatically, as well as braking attributes.

The other thing that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is whether you are building a drag racing/duno queen or a road racing type engine. These engines are very different in attributes. Your road racing type profiles will be built for better durability. Depending on what you are trying to do here, will dictate the transmission and differential combination you go with. Are you going to stay with the stock tranny and rearend? If so, you are limited as to where you go with the engine.

The other question that comes into play is whether you will be adding a forced induction system somewhere down the road (or NOS)? If so, stay away from higher compression pistons and hypereutectic cast ones.

Luckily for you Ken, we have a ton of local resources that have a broad experience in building both types of engines (with decades of experience). Whichever way that you go, make sure to do your homework carefully. These mistakes can get to be very expensive.

Just my $.02. Good luck.

Brad

 

[Bullitt]

Oops! I didn't want to lead Ken down the BB route, but to show him what the shop was capable of. The mods to get the intake to fit under a stock C4 hood were impressive and looked top-notch from what I could see of black & white pics. Those guys had used an all aluminum engine from Can-Am, probably the butt-kickin' 430 variation. Since Ken wants a driver, this is a bit out there, so I just wanted to use it for reference. It would be interesting, though. --Bullitt

 

[Ken]

First off, we (I) decided long ago that I am not going to swap in a big-block in place of the small-block, but it will be a large displacement (420-421 c.i.) small block.

Secondly - Brad, I thought you knew me a little, enough to know that I am not a seriously competitive type of person. So the build-up will, as I've also stated at the beginning of this thread, be mainly for the "giggles and grins". :J That and the fact that it is something I've always wanted to do. :gap Hey, by-the-way, somewhere back in this thread or an e-mail exchange, I told you that I'd like to pick your brain on this.

That said, I had a sit-down with Will today, and we went over the list item-by-item. Granted, the price that was shown is high, but that is somewhat akin to "suggested" prices, and not the actual final cost. Adding up the total cost, and taking into consideration the machine work, nitriding, balancing, etc., involved, and then given the fact that he is getting a thousand dollars knocked off the top right away, brings a little more focus into the "big picture". I started this with the idea of it (the engine) costing me around ten grand to do what I'd like, so we are within those constraints so far. I still think I'm gonna get this thing in for around fifteen plus or minus some change.

_ken

 

[Ken]

The status on the last day of the year.

I ordered the LPE Ceramic-coated headers the other day, along with a Milodon Low-Profile Small Block Stroker oil pan, scraper and baffle, and a waterpump from Flowcooler.

I opened my e-mail this morning to find a message from PartsAmerica stating that they no longer carry the parts (Milodon) and that I'd have to shop elsewhere. I had another message from Lingenfelter stating they no longer manufacture the 1 3/4" ceramic-coated headers, only 1 5/8" stainless, non-coated, at $135 more! Time to shop elsewhere. :eyerole

Trouble is, none of the on-line or in-print catalogs (Jeg's, Summit, etc.. Forget about the highly overpriced stuff from the Corvette catalogs!) carry name-brand recommended headers for a C4. Any of you guys have any recommendations for excellent fit (read: NO HAMMERING!), quality craftsmanship, durability, etc.. I can always have them coated I guess with Jet Hot or something. :confused

I haven't heard from Flowcooler, so I guess that order is ok. I could have done better though if I had ordered it through Summit now that I look at their catalog.

I ordered my Centerforce Dual Friction clutch assembly and MSD wires today at 4-Wheel Parts, where I also noticed some high-torque mini-starters (another list item) manufactured by PowerMaster. This is another name of which I am unfamiliar; I've heard and read about the Mean Green brand mini-starters and alternators, but not PowerMaster. Then I see in the Summitt catalog that they are a contingency sponsor in NHRA, so people must be using them. Gimme some feedback.

It still looks like I'm staying with ordering the DUI ignition set-up unless someone can convince me otherwise.

RADIATORS:
Recommendations needed again. I've looked at both Griffin and Be Cool, and I'm leaning torwards Griffin. Whatcha think?

I'll have the cam specs Wednesday I think.
_ken "It's Only Just Begun" :love

 

[Tom Bryant]

Ken,
Didn't our friend from Germany use TPIS headers? I don't know what size they were. How about checking with the top name Corvette tuners, Doug Rippey Motorsports ect. Some must make their own headers. What does Guldstrand recommend? How about some gool ole Headmans? Can't you buy Milidon direct from the company? Am I asking too many questions? Would you tell me if I were?

Tom

 

[Ken]

That's what I mean-- I've got some shopping cut out for me. :eyerole

_ken

 

[Rowdy1]

Deal Direct

Bro, go to www.jet-hot.com or call their tech line at 1-610-277-5646 and ask for Todd B. This guy knows his stuff and is super. I went to their site about a month ago and ended up calling them about a set for the 62. They are top shelf and will sell you brand new brand name already coated direct. They sent me all kinds of literature, an estimate and a video free and they're running a special $50 off until 1/31/02.

As far as the radiator goes from all the research I did before I bought one, the main difference between Griffin and bcool was bcool makes a drop in replacement where with Griffin you will most likely have to make some changes to install it. Mine was a perfect drop in, almost too good to believe and it works big time.

I'm sold on Summit and Jeg's, they are fast cheap and I've had to return some things and it's a never a problem, no hassle, no questions asked. They also have good tech people. Drop me a line if I can be of any help.

 

[Bullitt]

L98 Headers

Has anyone ever heard of Vanderzanden Engineering? They make headers for the L98 Corvettes, but I only found out about them today. Try this link VDA Headers. With the exception of what has already been mentioned, I do not know about anymore header suppliers. However, weren't the LPE headers manufactured in conjunction with Hooker? Or am I thinking about different headers? Hopefully, I'm not wrong. --Bullitt

 

[Ken]

Bullitt, did you notice it said: "Complete Header Kit" I'm not into fabricating my own at this point.

I found a few other last night; as usual, they were for the C5s, but they might make the C4 headers too.

Tom, I forgot to mention too last night that sure, Milodon sells direct to the public, but they state right up front on their web site, without being asked even, that you can purchase their stuff from outside sources and save money. You can even save more with the racers discount - which seems to apply to everyone. :L

Lou, thanks for the insight on Be Cool vs. Griffin when it comes to installing them, and for the Jet-Hot number.

I should've realized it was going to be a PITA trying to get the parts I want on the first try. I can't seem to get this thing organized on my end.

_ken :crazy

 

[Tom Bryant]

That's cause we're all racers at heart Ken.

 

[Bullitt]

Hmm... I took the "kit" part as complete headers (no fab. work), gaskets and bolts. I dropped the guy an email to find out for sure. It seems like a small organization, so the problem would probably be customer support. Hooker part # 2149, might interest you, if it's still available. Installation notes are:

• Comes with Thermal Cermaic Barrier
• Fits ZF 6-speed and standard 5-speed
• Comes with accomodations for EGR oxygen sensor and air pump. Smog tree welded to header.

I found this information through my Performance Automotive Warehouse (PAW) catalog. The price was listed at $430, but call 818-678-3000 for current prices, as my book is a bit older. PAW is located at 21001 Nordoff, Chatsworth, CA 91311. These are the same ones that I believe were sold through Lingenfelter.

On the same note, since you are making your own motor, could you use the LT-1 variant headers? I'm unsure if there were significant changes to the chassis structure or other engine bay differences that would require L98 specific headers, in the C4's evolution. Feel free to educate me, otherwise. --Bullitt

 

[Ken]

Bullitt, thanks for kicking me back to Hooker.

I looked at their headers last night but saw the footnote and wondered if there would be a problem with the Edelbrock angle plug heads. There is a footnote: "Does not fit with AFR angle plug heads." That refers to AirFlow Research, but I imagine the angle plug heads are all the same with the plug angle, eh?

Part #2151 however, does NOT carry that footnote, and everything else is exactly the same as part #2149, so it looks like I am able to get Hookers after all. I missed it last night.

_ken