More bad news Now on my motor

[vette rod]

It belongs to a chassised pro 72 monte carlo. The car is all steel with a complete stock interior(electric windows,door locks and even power seat) except for the roll cage it is all stock looking. Turbo 400 with a break and 9" with 4.56 gears. 4-link Car weights 3800 and runs 8.40 in the 1/4. Oh yeah and it is street legal.


www.pugesekmotorsports.com

 

[henny496]

Monte Carlo

I like your engine. If you ever want to loan it out to see how it runs in the Canadian summer heat, let me know.....
How is the dry sump on the street?
Tom

 

[vette rod]

I'll keep you in mind The dry sump works fine on the street. No problems at all except for the whats that big tank for question that never goes away.:L


www.pugesekmotorsports.com

 

[IH2LOSE]

OK I definitely need some help here. I gave up on my normal motor builder; it seems I have found a new fellow who wants to build a motor for me. With him supplying a new seasoned 4 bolt block



I gave him my goals all be hind a 700r4 trans



1-drive all year no maintenance needed

2-be able to drive all day as a pleasure car

3-run to Carlisle (3 hrs) should be as nice a drive as if I was in the wife’s C5

4-torque of my L72 that plants you in your seat

5- lopey cam so it doesn’t sound like a station wagon

6-enough vacuum to support power breaks

7-a car the wife can jump in and drive no problem

8-off the shelf normal maintenance parts

9-Square port heads as my headers and intake manifold 069 are set up for them

10-must be able to use low profile valve covers so there is no clearance problems with power brake booster



So I need to find out the rear end ratio now and the tire size so he can figure a cruising RPM ( I will need help on this)



From there he will spec a proper cam to keep me in the torque range we want? (How will he know the proper torque range?)

And from that he will determine a stall speed, now the next problem is the stall speed because he is explains he can build what he thinks I want but we will get into trouble with having the wife drive a car with a 3000 rpm stall speed. He is suggesting we stay in the 2200 to 2500 stall speed for her and then go from there.



WOW my head is spinning from this and I may ask for someone else to speak to this fellow for me as what he is trying to say is all Chinese to me.



I had originally wanted to stay in the 425 range on hp and some how the motor is getting into the 500+ range (what am I doing wrong) as the Trans guys say 450 is a max we should run thru the 700R4 Trans The motor builder also explained 700R4 is a tric tranny and really a great idea but a turbo 400 would be better because the rpm range when cruising will be so low and the torque converter will open up because of too low an rpm. What do I have to change on my goals to get back on course

 

[BarryK]

Larry
I can't answer your questions (no surprise for you there, huh) but I have one about the tranny.
Isn't your planned 700R4 a 4-speed auto tranny compared to his recommended Turbo 400 (3-speed)? I would think the 700R4 being a 4-speed would give you more flexibility over the torque range and more comfortable cruising. Or am I wrong and the Turbo 400 is a 4-speed also?

BTW, I like your list of goals for the motor - well thought out beforehand and seems to cover all important areas.

 

[IH2LOSE]

Turbo 400 is a three speed

700r4 is a 4speed with overdrive or the overdrive is 4th I am not sure excactly.I am in over my head on this.

 

[BarryK]

Turbo 400 is a three speed

700r4 is a 4speed with overdrive or the overdrive is 4th I am not sure excactly.I am in over my head on this.

ok, that's what I thought. doesn't that make more sense than to go with the 700R4 than like you planned? whether the 4th gear is "4th" or "overdrive", I would think it would help make the car cruise better at highway speeds, not to mention better fuel ecomomy. Than again, you know I'm way over my head too.

 

[1995 RedVette]

I'm not much help on your other questions, but the 700R4 is a 4 speed with 4th being over driven. The gear ratios for a stock 700R4 are as follows

1st 3.06:1
2nd 1.70:1
3rd 1.00:1
4th 0.70:1

I hope that helps.

Brett

 

[IH2LOSE]

I'm not much help on your other questions, but the 700R4 is a 4 speed with 4th being over driven. The gear ratios for a stock 700R4 are as follows

1st 3.06:1
2nd 1.70:1
3rd 1.00:1
4th 0.70:1

I hope that helps.

Brett

thanks brett

 

[John Mcgraw]

Larry,

Here is some info that I gathered when making my trans selection.

Using the venerable Muncie M22 as the bench mark, here are the numbers.

The muncie has a 2.20 first gear. when coupled with a 3.54 rear gear, this gives an effective gear ratio of 7.79.

The TH 400 has a first gear of 2.48 which gives an effective ratio of 8.77, or the same as if you had a 3.90 gear.

The 700R4 and 4L60 trans both have a 3.06 first gear which would give an effective ratio of 10.83, or the same as if you had a 4.92 rear gear!

This right here explains why so many people run a 700R4 0r 4L60E on thier street cars. The low gear grunt that you get with one of these trans, is beyond compare. Keep in mind that both of these transmissions are of an overdrive type which drops your RPM to 70% of what the TH400 would give at highway speeds. Also, the 700R4 and 4L60E transmissions are both lockup type trans, where the torque converter is locked solid at high speeds. Both of the issues can substantially improve both economy and sound levels on the road. The only difference in the 700 and the 4L60 trans is that the 4L60E has computer controlled shift points, while the 700's shifting is controlled by a cable from the throttle position. Both of them are electronically controlled on the torque converter lock-up, but the circut to do this is very simple. You can controll the lock-up manually with a switch, or there are several vendors that offer a black-box to perform the task for you. I would not go to a 2500 stall converter, but would stay with a stock stall range converter. I have a neighbor who just recently put a 2500 stall converter in his car, and it drives him to drink at low speeds! The car idles down the street at almost 2000 RPM.
With this low a first gear and the torque of the bigblock, you will be able to shred tires at the blip of the throttle, even with the stock converter.

Now for the bad.
The 700R4 and the 4L60E trans have some weak spots in the stock form. Both of these trans are only good to about 350 ft/lbs of torque according to GM. A steady diet of more than this will really decrease the life of the trans. that being said, the aftermarket has responded with fixes for all the weaknesses of both transmissions. GM has also released a new trans, the 4L65E which has been beefed up to take the torque of the new LS@ engine in the Corvette, SSR, and GTO. This trans will take a regular diet of 425 ft/lbs of torque without complaining. This is the trans that I am using on the 65 with it's LS2 engine. You should be able to get a real strong 700 for about $2500, and can buy the new 4L65E trans from GM for about $1900. The aftermarket has come up with modifications that will allow these transmissions to withstand well over 500 ft/lbs of torque on a regular basis and never even flinch.
I think that an overdrive trans with a lock-up converters and stock stall speed, will make you one very happy camper! Fighting a high stall speed, high highway rpm's, and poor economy will suck some of the fun right out of driving the car on a regular basis. I think the lower gear ratio in first will more than make up for any thing you lose in the high stall.

Regards, John McGraw

 

[henny496]

Engine mods

Hello Larry

Do you want to use your existing BBC parts in the new block and just get a lumpy cam?
lumpy cams will foul plugs, but going to an HEI ignition is supposed to help that.
There are thousands of cams to chose from. Crane or other reputable companies have tech lines that can give you a very close cam for your needs. A mild hydraulic would be good
I think you basically want a mild engine with good torque?
I love the high power stuff, but if you don't want to be playing with the car much, stay conservative for reliability on a daily driver.

I once put a powerglide with a 5,000 stall converter into an old truck with a BBC and a BIG cam. ...not one of my greatest ideas, but I had it laying around and wanted to try it. .....It was 5 miles of fun and then I had to take it out
take care
Tom

 

[IH2LOSE]

Larry,

Here is some info that I gathered when making my trans selection.

Using the venerable Muncie M22 as the bench mark, here are the numbers.

The muncie has a 2.20 first gear. when coupled with a 3.54 rear gear, this gives an effective gear ratio of 7.79.

The TH 400 has a first gear of 2.48 which gives an effective ratio of 8.77, or the same as if you had a 3.90 gear.

The 700R4 and 4L60 trans both have a 3.06 first gear which would give an effective ratio of 10.83, or the same as if you had a 4.92 rear gear!

This right here explains why so many people run a 700R4 0r 4L60E on thier street cars. The low gear grunt that you get with one of these trans, is beyond compare. Keep in mind that both of these transmissions are of an overdrive type which drops your RPM to 70% of what the TH400 would give at highway speeds. Also, the 700R4 and 4L60E transmissions are both lockup type trans, where the torque converter is locked solid at high speeds. Both of the issues can substantially improve both economy and sound levels on the road. The only difference in the 700 and the 4L60 trans is that the 4L60E has computer controlled shift points, while the 700's shifting is controlled by a cable from the throttle position. Both of them are electronically controlled on the torque converter lock-up, but the circut to do this is very simple. You can controll the lock-up manually with a switch, or there are several vendors that offer a black-box to perform the task for you. I would not go to a 2500 stall converter, but would stay with a stock stall range converter. I have a neighbor who just recently put a 2500 stall converter in his car, and it drives him to drink at low speeds! The car idles down the street at almost 2000 RPM.
With this low a first gear and the torque of the bigblock, you will be able to shred tires at the blip of the throttle, even with the stock converter.

Now for the bad.
The 700R4 and the 4L60E trans have some weak spots in the stock form. Both of these trans are only good to about 350 ft/lbs of torque according to GM. A steady diet of more than this will really decrease the life of the trans. that being said, the aftermarket has responded with fixes for all the weaknesses of both transmissions. GM has also released a new trans, the 4L65E which has been beefed up to take the torque of the new LS@ engine in the Corvette, SSR, and GTO. This trans will take a regular diet of 425 ft/lbs of torque without complaining. This is the trans that I am using on the 65 with it's LS2 engine. You should be able to get a real strong 700 for about $2500, and can buy the new 4L65E trans from GM for about $1900. The aftermarket has come up with modifications that will allow these transmissions to withstand well over 500 ft/lbs of torque on a regular basis and never even flinch.
I think that an overdrive trans with a lock-up converters and stock stall speed, will make you one very happy camper! Fighting a high stall speed, high highway rpm's, and poor economy will suck some of the fun right out of driving the car on a regular basis. I think the lower gear ratio in first will more than make up for any thing you lose in the high stall.

Regards, John McGraw

Thanks John

If I understand correctly I will contact him and tell him to build around a stock stall speed.And I will tell the tranny guy to do the same.

You know this is all the stuff the other motor builder I use used to do for me,I would tell him what I wanted as an end result and he did the rest.I mena this guy would even dial in the vacum on the distributor and give all of the tune up specs for the motor and now he just wants to purchase a crate motor.

Well wish me Luck

 

[00fxd]

Larry, It's good to hear of an engine builder that asks intelligent questions to build you an engine that will work for your needs.
Go with the overdrive transmission the 700. The later 4l60e or the 65 will require some kind of pcm (computer) to control it.
Don't even consider the th400. Dinosaur.
You could use a converter that is from a 700 equipped Corvette etc with a little higher stall speed and is a little easier to live with (and more fun).
Also USE A LOCK UP. They always try to talk you out of it.
Cool stuff.

 

[IH2LOSE]

Larry, It's good to hear of an engine builder that asks intelligent questions to build you an engine that will work for your needs.
Go with the overdrive transmission the 700. The later 4l60e or the 65 will require some kind of pcm (computer) to control it.
Don't even consider the th400. Dinosaur.
You could use a converter that is from a 700 equipped Corvette etc with a little higher stall speed and is a little easier to live with (and more fun).
Also USE A LOCK UP. They always try to talk you out of it.
Cool stuff.

Its a definate on the 700R4 as alot of things are all ready built around it on my car, I am using a lock up that I got from painlesswireing.

The fellow I am speaking to about building a motor asked alot of questions about the cars it self. I am not sure if he was kidding or not but his first question was "How high and how long do you want to hang the wheels down the track and did I have a scheduled time I wanted to arrive at the other end"

I explained the cars all about cruising,No track time,I just need torque. I will keep you guys posted, Today we should be able to finalise with the engine specs with the information John has given me on a stock stall speed.and I should be able to post them tonight and then get your opions prior to giving him a deposit.

The guy also explains he has a block all ready for a build,and I could have my engine with in 2 weeks or so

 

[IH2LOSE]

So these are the specs on the motor


*454 block with 4" stroke crank

*Forged rods with ARP bolts

*Forged dome pistons with 9.2 to 1 compression

*Pro-Top Line cast iron Rectangular Port heads with 119 cc chambers.
2.190" & 1.880" Stainless valves are swirl polished and stems are undercut for improved flow.

*Screw in rocker studs with hardened guide plates

*Roller tip rockers and std height Chrome valve covers

*Hydralic flat tappet cam with .527" Int. and .553" ex. valve lift Advertised duration is 290 Int. and 292 ex. Duration @ .050" is 224 Int and 232 ex. Ground on a 114 Lobe center.

*Double row timing componets

*Balanced rotating assemble

*High Volume oil pump and screen welded to oil pump

*Steel oil pump driveshaft with steel collar

*Brass freeze plugs
Do you guys think this is correct for my needs

 

[henny496]

cam

Hello Larry
Do you know what the power band is on the camshaft?
Tom

 

[IH2LOSE]

NO I do not know the power band on the cam shaft but I will find out.The motor builder also recomended the oval port heads for the low end But I am asking for the rectangular heads because of the intake I want to use.


And I also ordered the headers for the rectangular heads (is there a difference between the twos exchaust ports)

The manifold I could do with out but I think my headers cost me around 400.00 and they are non returnable
I was hoping to get this ordered next week

 

[vette rod]

The exhaust ports are the same between the two castings. Your headers will be fine.

 

[vette rod]

If you can find out if it will be internal or externaly balanced. 454's are externaly balanced from GM but it works out nicer to internaly balance the engine. Also with that chamber size with a dome piston you compresion will be higher than that. To run that low of a compresion you will need flat tops.

 

[IH2LOSE]

The exhaust ports are the same between the two castings. Your headers will be fine.

So I will contact him tomorow and explain it would be OK to go back to the oval heads (he explained if I understood him he had to add stoke to get the bottom end back in the motor because of the retangular heads took it away)

Now correct me if I am wrong but torque is what plants me in my seat and hp is what gets me to the end of the track.So what I really want is torque.

Also so I better understand what is the benifit of roller rockers? is it just to eliminate frictions