Need advice... rebuild, patch or junk it...

[HallenTi]

I have a 1990 coupe, 148,000 miles. I live in the Seattle-area. I figure the car is in reasonable shape, so is probably worth $8,000-$9,000. I "like" the car, but am not attached to it, and was comtmplating selling it for a C5 at some point in the near future.

In doing the intake manifold leak fix I dropped a nut into the engine but didn't know it at the time. Ran it, heard the noise, shut it down and then had it towed to a local shop and they had their engine guy come look at it. I have seen it as well.

Head is a little beat but fixable (no replacement needed according to a local aluminum head repair man). Piston (#3) is beat up and needs replacement. Engine guy says the lower portion of the cylinder is "belled-out" 0.005" due to the way the nut sat on the piston for the 1 minute total running time it had. I need realistic opinions on the following ideas...

The engine guy can maybe "patch" it by honing some from the bad cylinder, but says it will probably use oil... not sure how much oil, but will use some he claims.

"Patch job" estimate is about $2,500. "Best way" (bore all cylinders out 0.030 over, new pistons, rings, etc. etc.) necessitating removal of the engine is $5,000-$6,000.

One option I haven't checked into is a sleeve, but not sure if that can be done, and if it could possibly be done in the car to avoid the 20+ hours shop rate for the engine remove/replace.

I can't see spending between $5-6,000 with the car valued as it is. I could maybe go for the $2,500 patch, but I believe there would be no guarantee on the work given it is a patch job he says.

Checked into a used 1989 engine (only one I can find even in neighboring states), and it is $2,500 with a 90 day warranty, and no idea of the mileage (has 170lbs compression in all they said).

Checked into a Chevrolet crate engine, but none are available back further than 1992.

What do you think I should do? If I repair it either way, I would feel that I needed to keep the car a while to get some of the money out of the expensive repair. In review, the options are:

A). Patch job at about $2,500 - no guarantee
B). Complete rebuild at about $5-6,000 - 90 day guarantee I believe
C). Possible sleeve te bad cylinder (somewhere between A and B price-wise I expect)
D). Sell the car for parts

 

[steelblue75]

Get a crate engine from Jeg,s & pull the old one and install the new

one yourself

 

[Vettefan87]

Why couldn't you just have that cylinder bored, and resleeved, or just have the entire block bored .030 over? I am in no way an expert, but something like that should not mean you have to scrap your entire motor.

 

[WhalePirot]

As you're not emotionally involved with the car, it comes down to a cash decision, as you've spelled out so well. I think you'll be in it for the same cash whether you get a crate engine or rebuild yours. I am not a fan of "patch jobs" as they rarely save money in the long run. I'd not feel too good about dumping a patched car on someone, either. I fail to see why a light boring would not cure the slight irregularity, as stated. I also doubt that a decent sleeve job can be done with the engine installed. A 148k engine would seem to have leaks and other wear items that could be renewed.

Also figure into your numbers: what you already owe the shop and what the car is worth as is. Parting out is a royal PITA.

If your heart is really on a C-5, you'll not be too happy with the '90 for too long, I'd guess; maybe less so than before this happened.

I say, either fix it right and drive it for a some time, while searching for a steal on your C-5, or take your $$ lumps; dump it as is and get a C-5 now.

 

[maxrevs85]

Vettefan 87, the patch can be done in the car , the sleeve and the bore option result in removale of engine resulting in the extra cost. To sleeve a cylinder you need to bore the cylinder first . Hope this helps.

Dave

 

[G Winter]

I have a hard time believing that the cyl is belled out from the nut being on it. The piston would self distruct before that would happen . I think the bell is due to cyl wear from the miles. If one is belled I would bet they all are. I would do the patch so that it is running. I don't think it will come apart if a new piston is installed.Then sell or trade the car and give the engine history up front. A running car will sell much better then one that is in pieces even if it isn't perfect. Many people will take the chance of it running for awhile if the price is right and your up front with it. As WhalePirot said you already owe the shop for tearing it down. Putting it back together with a new piston and head repair won't be all that much more. If I were buying and you were up front and price was right I wouldn't hesitate to buy.
If you do decide to sell as is how much do you want for it? I could do the work myself and maybe have his and hers vettes.If nothing else it could be a parts car for mine.

 

[MoeJr]

If you do not fix it then I would sell it as it sits. No sense parting it out as there is always an engine out there for it and somebody will put it back together. IMHO 5-6k for an engine rebuild is a bit high. The rebuild kits for that car are not that expensive.

 

[Moonunit 451]

I'm with Moe, do it right, or eat it, let's hear some more about your car. If you really want a C5, just get one, you gotta love the C4 and be willing to drive it to justify the expense, which could be much cheaper with some research and your own labor

 

[HallenTi]

I asked about the sleeving, and they told me that the block would have to come out. The main cost (or so I am told) for the rebuild vs. a "patch job" is that for the rebuild, it would have to come out of the car for boring whereas the patch could be done in the car. I too thought that probably ALL cylinders were "belled" somewhat, so I am planning to go tomorrow to the shop and see if they will take another piston out to compare them.

I was told that the labor for the removal (and I assume reinstallation) of the engine was about 20 hours. At $77/hour that's $1,540... so I too wondered where the extra money would be going (I have priced kits that include everything down as far as a new crank (which I don't think is needed) and a new cam and lifters (again, probably not needed) and they ran (round numbers) less than $1,000. Of course, there is the labor and such to bore it and assemble it for the shop. I do NOT mind paying for labor on something that I can't (or won't) attempt, but the whole thing seemed high to me.

I am toying with paying the shop for time spent thus far, getting it home, then removing the engine myself and having a machine shop do the boring and then I will rebuild it myself. I wouldn't have thought initially to tear down a perfectly good, running engine, but since it is in semi-pieces already... I might just do that. There is relatively few costs in parts... it all seems to be labor, and if I want to spend the time then it is money in the bank.

I checked Jegs - engine number 809-12499529 - $1,650 for a 290 HP crate engine, less manifold, starter, etc. So, there is a possibility, but still more than if I did it myself, and I'd have the "advantage" of the original engine, the aluminum heads (crate is cast iron) and other things, plus hours of fun doing all the work myself (it should be a good learning experience really).

If I do the work from start to finish myself, I even figure I could BUY a picker and an assembly stand and be way ahead of what the shop would have charged in total (could of course rent the items more cheaply, provided I didn't take so long that I'd pay more in rent than to buy them). So, there is plenty to think about and decide on.

I agree that I didn't really want to part out the car. Should have stated that better, but when writing the original post "junk it" came to mind, as I could not see spending so much on the car with such relatively little value, and hadn't thought of doing it myself as of yet.

In thinking about all this I am seriously thinking that the do-it-yourself method for a rebuilt is my only option. I would not spend near as much and have a fully rebuilt unit, and could either keep it a while while looking, or be able to sell it with a freahly rebuilt motor that I'd feel better about selling, compared to a patch job.

So, I will check out my Helms manual, the Chilton and Haynes manuals I have, and possibly a "Rebuild your small block Chevy" type book from the library and have at it!

Tim

 

[Daryllawman]

If you are not going to keep the car.......SELL it as is and get out from under it....Don't put more money in it then its worth.....IMO......Good Luck !!

 

[HallenTi]

So...what can I get for it as is then do you think? (given the body and interior are in "good" shape, new tires, generally "good" shape overall)?

 

[WhalePirot]

Engine stands are not too expensive (China, ya know); the puller is a rental, but ensure the arm is long enough to reach. Standard ones are not long enough or a C-4. I bought and sold the last engine stand, netting -$10 or so.

My redo took over two years with a professioanlly built engine. While I have, and enjoy building engines, I don't have the 'art' mastered. That aside, the C-4 swap is trickier than the old days, with the tight clearances in our cars, plus all that plumbing, plastic and sensors. Heat causes many plastic fasteners, holders and harnesses to break, plus the reinstall of all those hoses and proper routing of wiring is complicated, especially if you didn't photo the disassembly.

I don't mean to say you cannot do it yourself. I did, and changed from a TBI to TP, so surely others can do it. Skilled labor is expensive and sometimes worth paying. You know your abilities, to do or to pay.

If you opt to go more powerful on the new engine, you may find a familiar friend with a much more pleasing nature and ability to kick butt. I now like my '84 more than any C-5 or even the C-6 'Z' I owned.

 

[rrubel]

Something doesn't seem right on the pricing for the pull/install. I had the engines swapped on my Vette (granted there was little to do in removing the old, as it was a bare block) and it cost me under $700.
[RICHR]

 

[Vettefan87]

I think mine ran me around 800 bucks, since a connector or something would always break when he pulled, it and/or put it back in.... :eyerole

 

[C4Tom]

I'm having a problem with the 'engine guy' telling you the nut caused the cylinder to be belled out. I believe that is caused from age/miles on the motor, the piston skirt will cause this. The nut, most likely, would gouge the cylinder wall calling for a new sleeve or a over-bore to fix. A simple hone job will pretty much fix .005" wear. New piston and rings... you're good to go.

 

[maxrevs85]

My engine had 113000 when i rebuilt it. Cylinder taper varied .004 to .012 . As C4Tom said its normal. And Its mainly at the bottom. If its only .005 then hone rering and sell.

 

[chevyaddict]

You may "think" your not attached to it .... until you sell it and then you'll regret it. So, rebuild it, keep it AND get the other vette! That is my motto.

 

[gmjunkie]

My engine had 113000 when i rebuilt it. Cylinder taper varied .004 to .012 . As C4Tom said its normal. And Its mainly at the bottom. If its only .005 then hone rering and sell.

Tim I think yer get'n Bone'd .005 ain't Squat!! I'v had to put just one piston in before!! done the same thing in my younger Year's!! It was a 57 Ford Ranchero with a Boss 429 in it out of a Boss Mustang that I installed in school, Know what!! it still Kick's Azz and ask's Question's Later!! You can repair it your self for less than $1400. Buck's!! Put Rebuild kit in it and Drive it!! Send me the Vin# and #'s on block!! I will ck on a kit for you!! Kit will come 8 piston's ring's,baring's,cam, lifter's,timeing set, seal's and gasket's!! gmjunkie!!

 

[milehigreg]

You lost a nut inside a cylinder doing an intake manifold job and yet you are now contemplating a DIY engine rebuild? Interesting.

 

[HallenTi]

Well "milehigreg", I have yet to see someone that doesn't make a mistake from time to time (apparently, you are one of them that doesn't make them however, so I can't say that I haven't seen one from now on - "interesting"). It isn't that I am a clutz or a fool... I just happend to drop a very small nut somewhere that it shouldn't have gone and didn't realize it until it was too late.

I expect there may be SOMEONE else out there reading this has made SOME sort of mistake SOMETIME in their life as well. So, it isn't that I can't do mecanical tasks (large or small)... and so am not afraid to take on a larger task. I just happened to make a mistake...