Need help with clutch, now possibly tranny?

[fhturner]

[Also posted this on CF, but wanted to post here, too. Hope y'all don't mind...]

Hey Everybody--

I've been experiencing the dreaded "sticky clutch" since Friday, and I'm trying now to flush/bleed the hydraulic system to see if I can fix the problem, at least temporarily. However, upon lifting my 2000 Vette (71,800 miles) this evening, I discovered more potential trouble: it looks like not only my clutch hydraulic system is leaking, but I've also got some fluid leaking from or around the transmission. Could this sticky clutch problem also be affecting my transmission? Other way around? Also, if my clutch hydraulics are leaking this much, is flushing/bleeding the system going to be in vain? Has my slave cylinder completely given up the ghost? Please have a look at the pictures below and share any thoughts/experience you may have. If they don't load, the links are:

http://fredonet.dyndns.org/fred/images/vette_misc/clutch_leak.jpg
http://fredonet.dyndns.org/fred/images/vette_misc/trans_leak.jpg

Clutch leak​

Transmission leak?​

Thanks for any help!
Fred

 

[MsSchroder]

YIKES!

[Also posted this on CF, but wanted to post here, too. Hope y'all don't mind...]
Fred

We don't mind at all. All we ask is that when and wherever you find the answers, post them here so others can benefit from your experience.

Tammy

 

[fhturner]

Thanks, MsSchroder... Here is my latest post at CF, with quoted answers from a couple of folks there:

Wow! Thanks for the quick and detailed responses! I appreciate your taking the time to help me!

Have you verified what the fluids are?

No, but the fluid on the tranny does seem to have a reddish tint to it...

It looks like the fluid on the tranny is coming from the connection of the tranny/rear carrier. There is no tranny fluid at that connection, but there is gear oil from the rear carrier. This is of course, assuming you don't have a crack in your tranny, or the fill/drain plugs aren't loose. Did you check for any of that?

If you mean the plug on the side near the DEX-RON III label, then there doesn't seem to be any leakage there. Didn't see any cracks. I should mention that the tranny pic is looking rearward-- the connection closest to you is where the torque tube joins the trans. Does that change your assessment of what it might be?

As far as the bellhousing goes, I'm assuming that's hydraulic fluid and not oil. Again, did you check? If it's hydraulic fluid, it's probably the slave cylinder.

That's what I figured. Guess it's yet another case of that whole failing slave cylinder issue that has caused much "sticky clutch". Speaking of that, what is this "VME" (#P100206) that I've seen? Neither GM nor the dealerships I've talked to seem to know what it is. I've got the text of it, but what type of document is this? And how can I point it out "officially" to GM Customer Assistance or the dealership?

Seems very weird that you have 2 large leaks like that. Looks like pretty nasty leaks too.

I was thinking the same thing. In looking closer at the tranny, I'm wondering, like 3X2, if the front leak's fluid isn't blowing back on the tranny. Strange that the fluid on the tranny is ahead of the torque tube seal, and notice how it's higher up on the right side. Notice also how it looks like the left exhaust pipe might be shielding/catching some fluid drops from farther forward.

That looks more like an engine oil than brake fluid from the clutch...Look at the fluid level in the clutch reservoir.

:eek That's because I don't believe the clutch hydraulic fluid has ever been changed until now. I've had the car for about 14 months & 12,000 miles, and I've never done it. It's a 2000 w/ 71,800 miles total. When I first started having the clutch trouble and looked in the reservoir (for the first time), the level was quite low (undoubtedly from that leak) and it was very "sludgy"-- kind of flat black. I "turkey-basted" that little bit out of the reservoir and refilled with fresh DOT3 fluid. So, don't let the color fool you-- by the location, it sure seems like clutch fluid to me.

...with red colored drops on the bottom of the trans case. Being as yours is black- just like the engine pics, I'm inclined to think that it's an engine oil leak that is being blown back as the car is driven

Actually, there does seem to be a bit of red tinting in the drops on the underside of the tranny. However, as I said above, it does look like some of that fluid might indeed be blowing back. Here's a better look:

<-- forward rear -->​

My suggestion would be to clean the areas as best as possible, say with some brakleen, add some floureseant engine oil dye to the engine oil, and check for the leak with a black light.

I really don't think it's engine oil, but I will keep an eye on it, and I will definitely clean the fluids off so that I can get a better idea of exactly where it's all coming from. Must be recent, since there weren't any puddles in my garage until now...

Thanks again for the help and continued support!
Fred

 

[avacorvette]

Looks like a rear main bearing seal leaking motor oil onto the clutch. But I'm no mech..

 

[atmmac]

That definetly looks like tranny fluid to me. Good Luck fixing it!

 

[fhturner]

Ugh. I just busted mine and my friend's butts last night getting the exhaust and driveline tunnel panel off to bleed the clutch. Never done this before, so it took a long time. Once finally done (early this morning), I took a test drive, and still got the sticky clutch pedal when I let the RPMs rise a bit. Guess I'll have to take it to a shop and let the raping begin... I love getting to pay the penalty for an inadequate design.

Lemme ask this again: What is that VME? What does it stand for? How can I point this out to a dealer or GM?

Thanks for all the help,
Fred

P.S. Don't know yet about the tranny. I cleaned off the casing pretty well with some degreaser, and now I'll just have to wait and see if/when/where it leaks.

 

[David Gordon]

Its got 70k on it just pull it out and repair it. I have had mine out 3 times and I just rolled over 15k.

 

[fhturner]

Its got 70k on it just pull it out and repair it. I have had mine out 3 times and I just rolled over 15k.

Well, obviously, I could have done this ("pull it out and repair it") from the get-go by taking it to a dealership or other shop and just telling them to fix it. In that case, I would have never posted in the first place. Since my clutch isn't slipping (yes, even with 72K on it), and since it seemed like I was yet another victim of the "sticky clutch pedal", I wanted to figure out as much about it as possible before blowing a bunch of cash for the repair.

Now that I've been unable to fix the sticky clutch pedal by bleeding the clutch hydraulic system, I've given in and taken it to a dealership. I've asked them to provide me with a diagnosis of the problem, so that I can "bend the ear" of GM Customer Assistance in the hopes of getting some financial help or, better yet, acknowledgment of this widespread issue.

However, even if the clutch assembly is fine and it is purely a problem with the hydraulics, I've asked them to go ahead and replace the flywheel, clutch disc, and pressure plate with new, Z06 parts. I agree with you that at 72K, it's time to replace those parts, as long as I'm already paying the $700 labor for them to get to the clutch anyway. But again, the whole reason for posting was to either avoid "just pulling it out and repairing it" or at least know as much about it as I could before going in.

Fred

 

[David Gordon]

I was just going off my experience (with the stickey pedal) If it is doing that the clutch is out or well on the way.

 

[fhturner]

I was just going off my experience (with the stickey pedal) If it is doing that the clutch is out or well on the way.

According to the numerous threads on CorvetteForum (and one or two here), it's actually not quite as simple as the clutch just going out. It has more to do with a faulty slave cylinder design in the clutch hydraulics, possibly compounded by improper/uneven torquing of the pressure plate upon assembly. Case in point: there is an updated GM replacement part for the slave cylinder, which is supposed to be an upgrade for all '97-'02 Vettes. I'm hoping this will go a long way toward resolving the problem.

The "VME" (anyone know what that stands for?), which I believe to be a preliminary GM service document, has the following to say:

Service VME - Clutch Pedal Does Not Return When Depressed #PI00206 - (07/11/2002)

When servicing the vehicle with the VIN you entered, the following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the described symptoms.

SERVICE VME
This is a service VME regarding 1997 through 2002 Corvettes. We've had several complaints of the clutch pedal not returning when depressed. If air gets into the hydraulic clutch system, the clutch pedal may not return when depressed. This may occur at low speeds, when stopped or possibly during high RPM shifts. One source of this condition may be the clutch slave cylinder. If the clutch pressure plate was not evenly torqued to the flywheel it may have been distorted. This could result in the clutch release fingers being uneven causing the clutch slave cylinder to wobble. This wobble will eventually damage the internal seal and the slave cylinder allowing air to enter the system. If this situation is present the recommended repair is to replace both the clutch slave and clutch master cylinders. A visual inspection of the pressure plate release fingers for wobble, which would appear similar to a bent wheel, should be performed when servicing the slave cylinder. If the release fingers are found to have this condition, it will also be necessary to replace the clutch assembly. Evenly torquing the pressure plate to the flywheel is necessary to prevent this condition.

Please follow this diagnosis process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed. If these steps do not resolve the condition, please contact GM TAC for further diagnostic assistance. This diagnostic approach was developed for the vehicle with the VIN you entered and should not be automatically be used for other vehicles with similar symptoms.

c4c5specialist made a fairly matter-of-fact post on CF in June '02. Perhaps he can update us as to the status of this issue?