New intake for crossfire = more HP!!!!

[KANE]

There are some deals out there. I recently purchased an Accel Superram base, SLP runners and a ported plenum for $580. They're used of course. Going to get them off to the powdercoaters next week.

I scored my runners from Ebay. Paid <$100 for them. The previous owner got halfway through a polish job on one side and gave up. It was a steal of a deal!

 

[CorvetteArchives]

Dark shark....SWEET!!!! THAT was a bargain for such a gorgeous piece!
The shape and proportions of the TPI are just right for the hood opening. That BELONGS on your car...it just looks perfect!

Hib...Like Clark Kent and Superman....I dont recall ever seeing pics of you and Dave Emmanual together!

As to the CFI article, it was a cover from Vette in June 1997 written by Abraham Bergian. Yes, you are right that the CFI manifold wasnt truly stock ....so my initial comment was in error. Hey, we gotta test the gurus dont we? It turns out CFI WAS ported and they also did tweak some components like larger throttle bodies and higher flow injectors.
But the author claims to have seen the time slips, so thats accurate.
No doubt you will comment that there would have been MUCH MORE power for money spent (and possibly more cheaply) if he had just switched to tuned port...and probably be right.
Oh I DO get it regarding torque and driveabilty. I would like to see how the torque curve is as well. Although personally I dont give a Rats___ about Emissions that GM engineers had to deal with since we dont have to

BTW, on their website: www.CrossfireInjection.net - News
"We have tested the RENEGADE on our own 383 CFI motors against the competitions manifold and noticed a dyno proven 20+RWHP gain over that manifold without any further tuning or fuel pressure adjustments, just swapped out the competitions manifold and installed the Renegade and hit it."

Doesnt seem too impressive actually

 

[Hib Halverson]

Thanks Captain Bring down, not one useful bit of knowledge or imput to this thread. If you don't know anything about crossfire why comment. It is clear you don't like crossfires and don't have a clue about them, and you are the last person I would want writing a tech article on crossfires, your ideas and automotive savy is lacking thanks anyways:eyerole.

"nelson84" you now have street cred in negative numbers.

A tip....when someone asks you to support your statements with some data, it's not a good idea to launch a personal attack because, when you do that, it raises the possiblity that you're just BS'ing everyone with your claims.

The issue is not whether I like or dislike the "Crossfire Injection" system. In fact, the Wife owns an 82 and I work on the car periodically. I respect the 2xTBI system for what it was to Corvette technology of the late 1970s. What I do think is the system makes a poor platform for serious modification. Now I don't doubt there are those out there who will insist mod'ing the 2xTBI system, but if the goal is performance regardless of how you get it, then Crossfire is a deadend. If the goal is to say, "I mod'ed my Crossfire" then have at it....and I will agree that gaining some performance is possible. Is gaining a lot of performance possible without some serious compromise elsewhere? I have yet to see evidence of that but, I have an open mind. Please reread my challenge.

But...when you make crazy claims and are asked politeliy to back them up with the dyno data and then, you react by calling names well then...you have zero credibility.

 

[Hib Halverson]

(snip)
Hib...Like Clark Kent and Superman....I dont recall ever seeing pics of you and Dave Emmanual together!

Look....Emanuel's taller and I'm cuter. We can't be the same person.

As to the CFI article, it was a cover from Vette in June 1997 written by Abraham Bergian. Yes, you are right that the CFI manifold wasnt truly stock ....so my initial comment was in error. Hey, we gotta test the gurus dont we? It turns out CFI WAS ported and they also did tweak some components like larger throttle bodies and higher flow injectors.
But the author claims to have seen the time slips, so thats accurate.
No doubt you will comment that there would have been MUCH MORE power for money spent (and possibly more cheaply) if he had just switched to tuned port...and probably be right.
Oh I DO get it regarding torque and driveabilty. I would like to see how the torque curve is as well. Although personally I dont give a Rats___ about Emissions that GM engineers had to deal with since we dont have to

A decade ago, I'd have said that, too, but today with so many states, including PA I'll add, unless you're building a race-only Corvette, you have to consider exhaust emissions tests.

BTW, on their website: www.CrossfireInjection.net - News
"We have tested the RENEGADE on our own 383 CFI motors against the competitions manifold and noticed a dyno proven 20+RWHP gain over that manifold without any further tuning or fuel pressure adjustments, just swapped out the competitions manifold and installed the Renegade and hit it."

Doesnt seem too impressive actually

I'm a little confused about the above. Does the statement mean they gained 20hp with the aftermarket intake when combined with proper tuning above the aftermarket intake alone or is the 20hp advantage coming with the Renegade intake and custom tuning and is over and above the power level seen with a ported stock intake from a competitor. Or...is it that there is not one but two aftermarket CFI intakes?

I take it that 20 wHp increase was the only statement? That is, there was nothing said about the overall torque curve?

I guess my bottom line here is...sure, you can modify CFI systems to get reasonable performance improvements. But, can you make "lots" of power and still have a fat torque curve and good driveablity and response? I'm not so sure.

 

[nelson84]

The 20 hp was 20 hp rear wheel over the x-ram on the same engine a 383!!! But with a stock crossfire 350 with just the intake swap to a renegade you will get 33 rear wheel horsepower.

If you are not familar with the x-ram:eyerole, it is a weiland carb intake modded to except a crossfire setup. Basically the new renegade intake gives better performance than a carb intake and obviously even better numbers than the stock crappy crossfire intake. This is the whole point of changing the intake. This is a simple mod to regain some hp that should have been there in the first place.

Again, this info is for crossfire owners to help give their cars a little extra snap with maintaining the stock appearance, I hope this clears up some of the fog .

Now we just have to figuire out which cam and heads are a decent price and will perform well with this new intake. Will the old crane 2040 work well with this:confused.

 

[GO_VETTE]

TPI costed alots of money.
Shit I have done it. Now I am upset.
If I would redo it, I would just rework my CFI and add nitrous.
The whole TPI is really not worth doing it.
TPI setup =$300.00+porting $100.00, runners=$350.00+ECM=$150.00+painFUL harness=$550.00+belt driven pulleys, pollution pump accesories $350.00,+sensors $200-500+air cleaner cannot fit, must modify hood +$$$.00
when adding the costs of parts alone, one can easily redo their own CFI and add NOS.
TPI is good but the cost to do that comparing the costs to modify the CFI w/ NOS is just out of control.otfl

 

[CorvetteArchives]

Look....Emanuel's taller and I'm cuter. We can't be the same person.

This is my favorite pic of Emmanual

.........I take it that 20 wHp increase was the only statement? That is, there was nothing said about the overall torque curve?

I guess my bottom line here is...sure, you can modify CFI systems to get reasonable performance improvements. But, can you make "lots" of power and still have a fat torque curve and good driveablity and response? I'm not so sure.

Yeah I found that at first confusing too. Nelson does a good job explaining.
I too am concerned over the omission of a torque curve. I'd REALLY like to see THAT!

A decade ago, I'd have said that, too, but today with so many states, including PA I'll add, unless you're building a race-only Corvette, you have to consider exhaust emissions tests.

Yeah, know what you mean. However in many states cars are eventually exempt from emissions. Here in PA its 25 model years statewide. Some PA counties do have emissions testing.... fortunately we dont. ...yet.:ugh
Although some folks in clubs I know even without cat-convertors have passed in nearby counties. Great testing , eh?

 

[CorvetteArchives]

TPI costed alots of money.
Shit I have done it. Now I am upset.
If I would redo it, I would just rework my CFI and add nitrous.
The whole TPI is really not worth doing it.
TPI setup =$300.00+porting $100.00, runners=$350.00+ECM=$150.00+painFUL harness=$550.00+belt driven pulleys, pollution pump accesories $350.00,+sensors $200-500+air cleaner cannot fit, must modify hood +$$$.00
when adding the costs of parts alone, one can easily redo their own CFI and add NOS.
TPI is good but the cost to do that comparing the costs to modify the CFI w/ NOS is just out of control.otfl

I just wouldnt add nitrous....Haggerty wont insure the car if it did and I'd rather save $.

 

[KANE]

TPI costed alots of money.
Shit I have done it. Now I am upset.
If I would redo it, I would just rework my CFI and add nitrous.
The whole TPI is really not worth doing it.
TPI setup =$300.00+porting $100.00, runners=$350.00+ECM=$150.00+painFUL harness=$550.00+belt driven pulleys, pollution pump accesories $350.00,+sensors $200-500+air cleaner cannot fit, must modify hood +$$$.00
when adding the costs of parts alone, one can easily redo their own CFI and add NOS.
TPI is good but the cost to do that comparing the costs to modify the CFI w/ NOS is just out of control.otfl

I've built TPI systems turn key complete for between $1k and $1.3K.

Examples-
$65: Cost effective ECM for TPI-
eBay Motors: 90-92 TPI Tuned Port Camaro 1227730 ECM Computer (item 370167803291 end time Apr-02-09 10:44:17 PDT)

$150 intake from a Corvette-
eBay Motors: 1985-19?? Corvette TPI Intake Manifold + Rails + Extras (item 180334414170 end time Mar-12-09 21:16:14 PDT)

$250 Harness-
eBay Motors: 1990-92 TPI Fuel Injection Wiring Harness (item 190290339979 end time Mar-08-09 21:15:00 PDT)

You'd do well with those parts, a AFPR, and some new injectors. Seems like the swap is very reasonable now. Just a bit over $500 for those parts. All that is left are small pieces.

I won't use PAINLESS harnesses either.

Ebay is a great place to pick up intakes, rails, runners, etc for cheap. You can also get chips (Scott Hansen), wiring harnesses (S10wildside), other parts (TPI_parts).

TPI is a good platform as it is multiport. It ain't perfect but with the Mini-ram, modded LT1 intakes, and others... it is far more versatile than CFI as an adaptable platform.

I think Hib had tried to argue that point.

 

[GO_VETTE]

Yes, Scott hanson programmed my EPROM. I had VATS.
But lets admit that it is nice to do the TPI swap, but cost to just do bolt on your CFI, it is not so much of removing wiring, ECM, and sensors.

 

[Hib Halverson]

But with a stock crossfire 350 with just the intake swap to a renegade you will get 33 rear wheel horsepower.(snip)

Well...we're in a sort of "loop" here. You say "33 wHp"

I say: is there some chassis dyno data you can post that will show the torque curve of the two tests (ie: test A--stock crossfire 350 and test B--the same engine with no changes other than the Renegade), along with the correction factor used?

If you are not familar with the x-ram:eyerole, it is a weiland carb intake modded to except a crossfire setup.

While I'm not familar with that specific intake manifold, I'll bet it's some kind of dual-four-barrel, "low" cross ram manifold. I am familiar with the Weiand brand which is owned by Holley. Currently, according to Holley's on-line parts info, there is no small block Chevrolet intake manifold, sold by Holley under the Weiand name, called an "x-ram". Maybe the "x-ram" is an intake manifold Weiand made at sometime in the past, before Holley purchased the Weiand name and product line. Perhaps, the person who makes the modifications is using "x-ram" manifolds which are found on the "used" market.

Now we just have to figuire out which cam and heads are a decent price and will perform well with this new intake. Will the old crane 2040 work well with this:confused.

That might be tough. While Crane's web site is still up, there were several reports, originating from the business press in South Florida, then carried widely by various automotive enthusiast sites, saying that Crane Cams closed it doors for good two weeks ago.
There was also a report on SEMA's web site this week saying that Crane Cams will reopen after "reorganization".

 

[nelson84]

I bought an x-ram on ebay and now I am going to get a renegade. When I get this intake I will do a dyno run with my 84 vette with the crossfire stock intake and then a run with the renegade intake and I will post my dyno results and details on this intake. If I get 33 hp or 40hp I will let you know if I get 5 hp or even -15 hp I will let you know.

You can wait for the resultshnoes

 

[Hib Halverson]

I bought an x-ram on ebay and now I am going to get a renegade.

Is eBay the major source for this manifold?

When I get this intake I will do a dyno run with my 84 vette with the crossfire stock intake and then a run with the renegade intake and I will post my dyno results and details on this intake. If I get 33 hp or 40hp I will let you know if I get 5 hp or even -15 hp I will let you know.

You can wait for the resultshnoes

Credible results will include:
graphics showing the full power and torque curves along with information as to the correct factor used (if any) when the dyno data was compliled. Along with a list of all the mods done for the "B" part of the A-B test.

 

[toobroketoretire]

The Renegade Intake Manifold

Here in California our smog laws are very stringent. Everything from 1974 and up has to be smogged every 2 years, and the original equipment has to be on the car. As the Renegade will look just like a stock Crossfire, that's my only choice. All I have ever wanted is to be able to rev my engine beyond 4000 rpm and still make power. And the Renegade will do that. If it loses a little bit of power on the bottom end, I don't care.

 

[vetteoz]

I'll bet it's some kind of dual-four-barrel, "low" cross ram manifold. ..... Maybe the "x-ram" is an intake manifold Weiand made at sometime in the past,

Long out of production , available used only

See alternative CFI intakes at bottom of page
Crossfire Injection

 

[nelson84]

Here in California our smog laws are very stringent. Everything from 1974 and up has to be smogged every 2 years, and the original equipment has to be on the car. As the Renegade will look just like a stock Crossfire, that's my only choice. All I have ever wanted is to be able to rev my engine beyond 4000 rpm and still make power. And the Renegade will do that. If it loses a little bit of power on the bottom end, I don't care.

Don't worry bro, you will be rockin your renegade soon, and all these ------ will be jealous that we bolted on over 40 hp with just an intake swap.

 

[toobroketoretire]

Don't worry bro, you will be rockin your renegade soon, and all these ------ will be jealous that we bolted on over 40 hp with just an intake swap.

DCS has been mighty quiet lately. I sure hope they didn't run into more problems when they started casting them this week. I hope everything is going okay.

 

[nelson84]

DCS has been mighty quiet lately. I sure hope they didn't run into more problems when they started casting them this week. I hope everything is going okay.

A little to quiet?

 

[Hib Halverson]

Don't worry bro, you will be rockin your renegade soon, and all these ------ will be jealous that we bolted on over 40 hp with just an intake swap.

Jealous?

Probably not.

But--interested, willing to change my mind about the Renegade idea based on testing? Absolutely.

I tell you what...if you can make a 40hp increase on an L83 with just an intake swap and will allow me to document that in a chassis dyno test which I supervise, I'll do everything I can to get an article on the Renegade published in "Corvette Enthusiast" magazine.

If you're interested in this idea, contact me via the CAC's PM feature.

 

[toobroketoretire]

A little to quiet?

As DCS has met such stiff resistance to their new intake in the SmokinVette C4 forum, I think they're just remaining quiet for now. It appears most '84 Crossfire owners have abandoned their Crossfires and have put other intakes on their '84's. So they could really care less about the whole thing. As I live in California, I don't have any other choice. The Renegade will look just like a Crossfire so my smog man won't question it when he does the "visual" portion of the test. The super tiny 1-1/8" x 1-3/8" ports of a Crossfire can only be opened up so much. Maybe to 1-3/8" x 1-5/8" before breaking through the walls. Even at that size the ports will still be inadequate to flow enough air to support a 6000 rpm 350" engine. The Renegade however will flow in excess of 1000 cfm right out of the box. Once I get mine installed, I'll let you all know what my opinion is of it. I'm hoping I'll get one by the first of April.