New intake for crossfire = more HP!!!!

[toobroketoretire]

The Renegade Intake Manifold

I had a spare Crossfire sitting around so I siamesed it. I was curious how well it would perform after removing the last 3" of the center runner dividers. Well, it performed even worse than a stock Crossfire. I lost a lot of bottom end and top end, but it feels like I gained some breathing in the middle. So I found out siamesing isn't the answer at all. As this siamesed intake is still on my engine, all I can do is compare (by memory) how well my port matched Crossfire performed to the new Renegade. With the port matched Crossfire I was running 6.5 second 0-60's, so I'll run some 0-60's after I get my Renegade installed. I'm hoping to break into the high 5's. I'll see............

 

[toobroketoretire]

Jealous?

Probably not.

But--interested, willing to change my mind about the Renegade idea based on testing? Absolutely.

I tell you what...if you can make a 40hp increase on an L83 with just an intake swap and will allow me to document that in a chassis dyno test which I supervise, I'll do everything I can to get an article on the Renegade published in "Corvette Enthusiast" magazine.

If you're interested in this idea, contact me via the CAC's PM feature.

I'm sure someone will do some dyno testing of the Renegades once they officially get released. DCS had dyno tested their welded-up prototype and gained 33 horsepower and 16 ft/lbs of torque. As the castings will share the same internal dimensions as the prototype, they should perform about the same.

 

[T.M.808]

About 10 years ago, i had a crossfire. Ported the intake. Power seemed the same,but off the line (low end) was actually worse. So i added a crane compu-cam and heedman headers. Power got a little better. Went to the track and got beat by a TPI camaro pretty bad.
I then pulled the distributor and intake,put on an edelbrock performer intake carb and cam. Had ok top end,but the low end was still not as good as the stock crossfire. So i had to add 3:73 gears. The motor needed better heads at this point. I went to a c5 and said screw,started modding the LS1..lol
I also have an 89 c4 now. I got a TPI for many reasons. Some time real soon, will be making it a 383,change the cam,do some head work, phase 2 will be twin turbos or a procharger.
Anyone ever open their wallet and try to fab up a custom air box for a supercharger???

 

[boomdriver]

What many people do not understand with these "trick" intakes is that free-flowing air is NOT always a good thing. Natural aspiration works in waves or pulses, similar to sound waves. Break up the wave or the frequency of the intake pulses and you destroy the engines ability to generate power and/or your ability to get power where you want it.. Getting air "IN" is better done thru smaller passages in many cases so a vacume can be developed. As air compresses it slows down, as it decompresses it accellerates. You want to control that process as much as possible so that air literally shoots into the combustion chamber and compresses before the piston even starts to cycle upward. THATS an efficient intake design. Thats why the ports in the top of the stock crossfire intake are small. Thats why simply sticking a bigger TB or carb on an engine makes it bogdown. Those intake ports are the byproduct of thousands of man-hrs of research and developement. I went thru all this with my L98 and worked my way to BIG expense in "trick" parts and eventually ruined my low-end pulling power, and made the engine useless until 3000 rpm. From 3000+ it jumped and screamed, but Life on the street is not about high rpm...so I slowly un-did things until I got it back to a suitable low-end and still able to rev quickly. Point is that you can get as much by port matching, gasket trimming, and grinding the casting ridges out as you can by buying and swapping intakes. Just make whats already there as efficient as possible. Believe me, GM did do a little R&D on the intake designs. 40 realhp will cost more like $1500....for that price you can go with giggle juice.(No2)

 

[toobroketoretire]

What many people do not understand with these "trick" intakes is that free-flowing air is NOT always a good thing. Natural aspiration works in waves or pulses, similar to sound waves. Break up the wave or the frequency of the intake pulses and you destroy the engines ability to generate power and/or your ability to get power where you want it.. Getting air "IN" is better done thru smaller passages in many cases so a vacume can be developed. As air compresses it slows down, as it decompresses it accellerates. You want to control that process as much as possible so that air literally shoots into the combustion chamber and compresses before the piston even starts to cycle upward. THATS an efficient intake design. Thats why the ports in the top of the stock crossfire intake are small. Thats why simply sticking a bigger TB or carb on an engine makes it bogdown. Those intake ports are the byproduct of thousands of man-hrs of research and developement. I went thru all this with my L98 and worked my way to BIG expense in "trick" parts and eventually ruined my low-end pulling power, and made the engine useless until 3000 rpm. From 3000+ it jumped and screamed, but Life on the street is not about high rpm...so I slowly un-did things until I got it back to a suitable low-end and still able to rev quickly. Point is that you can get as much by port matching, gasket trimming, and grinding the casting ridges out as you can by buying and swapping intakes. Just make whats already there as efficient as possible. Believe me, GM did do a little R&D on the intake designs. 40 realhp will cost more like $1500....for that price you can go with giggle juice.(No2)

I'm fully aware of what you're saying and I know it's velocity that re-fills the cylinder. What I have never liked about the Crossfire is how it fell flat on it's face at 4000 rpm. It's tiny ports are just too small to support a 350" engine at 6000 rpm. On a smaller 305" engine they work great, but not on a 350". That's why I paid the $460 for a Renegade. I'm really anxious to see how well it performs.

 

[nelson84]

Jealous?

Probably not.

But--interested, willing to change my mind about the Renegade idea based on testing? Absolutely.

I tell you what...if you can make a 40hp increase on an L83 with just an intake swap and will allow me to document that in a chassis dyno test which I supervise, I'll do everything I can to get an article on the Renegade published in "Corvette Enthusiast" magazine.

If you're interested in this idea, contact me via the CAC's PM feature.

So you want me to do all the leg work and you collect the money for the article? You said your wife drives a crossfire, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and buy the renegade and install it run all your tests and submit the article yourself. Hell anybody can write an article for a crappy car magazine, the writing is poor at best in those tech article.

 

[toobroketoretire]

What many people do not understand with these "trick" intakes is that free-flowing air is NOT always a good thing. Natural aspiration works in waves or pulses, similar to sound waves. Break up the wave or the frequency of the intake pulses and you destroy the engines ability to generate power and/or your ability to get power where you want it.. Getting air "IN" is better done thru smaller passages in many cases so a vacume can be developed. As air compresses it slows down, as it decompresses it accellerates. You want to control that process as much as possible so that air literally shoots into the combustion chamber and compresses before the piston even starts to cycle upward. THATS an efficient intake design. Thats why the ports in the top of the stock crossfire intake are small. Thats why simply sticking a bigger TB or carb on an engine makes it bogdown. Those intake ports are the byproduct of thousands of man-hrs of research and developement. I went thru all this with my L98 and worked my way to BIG expense in "trick" parts and eventually ruined my low-end pulling power, and made the engine useless until 3000 rpm. From 3000+ it jumped and screamed, but Life on the street is not about high rpm...so I slowly un-did things until I got it back to a suitable low-end and still able to rev quickly. Point is that you can get as much by port matching, gasket trimming, and grinding the casting ridges out as you can by buying and swapping intakes. Just make whats already there as efficient as possible. Believe me, GM did do a little R&D on the intake designs. 40 realhp will cost more like $1500....for that price you can go with giggle juice.(No2)

I have read numerous times G.M. was planning to discontinue the 350" and replace it with the 305". But that never came about and the 350" engines were stuck with the inadequate induction systems designed for the smaller 305" engines. It wasn't until the restrictive TPI systems were replaced did we finally see the horsepower suddenly climb. I expect I will give up some low end torque when I run a Renegade, but that's perfectly acceptable to me. I want mid to high rpm torque. All of today's engines run full size intake runners and the horsepower they put out proves they needed better breathing all along. Having gobs of low end torque may be great if I'm using my car to pull tree stumps. But that's not what I use my car for. I want power in the 3000-6000 rpm range, and I'm sure the Renegade will provide that.

 

[toobroketoretire]

Jealous?

Probably not.

But--interested, willing to change my mind about the Renegade idea based on testing? Absolutely.

I tell you what...if you can make a 40hp increase on an L83 with just an intake swap and will allow me to document that in a chassis dyno test which I supervise, I'll do everything I can to get an article on the Renegade published in "Corvette Enthusiast" magazine.

If you're interested in this idea, contact me via the CAC's PM feature.

I have a feeling DCS has grossly overestimated their potential market. From what I've read in the past and present, it appears most Crossfire owners who wanted increased performance have replaced their Crossfires with something else..........so they don't have any interest in the Renegade. For the few of us who are limited by our state's emission laws, the Renegade is very appealing to us. As my '82 has the factory forced air induction system, the Renegade is my answer to having increased performance and still retain my stock forced air system. And it will still retain the EGR valve in the same exact location. All I have ever wanted is the ability to wind my 350" engine up to about 6000 rpm before up-shifting into 2nd. So when I do hit 2nd, my engine is well into it's power band. As it was designed for a 305" engine, the stock crossfire hits it's breathing limit at 4000 rpm. The Renegade will solve that problem. I have always been very happy with the CFI system EXCEPT for it's 4000 rpm breathing limit. But other than that, I have never had any trouble whatsoever with my CFI. It's been trouble free for the entire 22 years I've owned my '82.

 

[CorvetteArchives]

So you want me to do all the leg work and you collect the money for the article? You said your wife drives a crossfire, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and buy the renegade and install it run all your tests and submit the article yourself. Hell anybody can write an article for a crappy car magazine, the writing is poor at best in those tech article.

OUCH ! Them's fighting words! Hib has IN NO WAY endorsed the Renegade...so maybe you need to put YOUR $ where YOUR words are and send him one?
Its probably just that Hib doesnt want to Urinate (Dont know if the other term is acceptable) away $500 bucks! ALL ALONG Hib HAS SAID that DRIVEABILITY is THE ISSUE! Long ago as a kid I remember a Mercedes engineer saying "you advertise horsepower but drive torque". I have the MOST fun with MY vette in the power range GM gave me. Sure I'd like to improve IF the Renegade lets me..... I KNOW my friends 86 vert will kick my butt in the long run but I enjoy my low end torque since high HP at High RPM will pretty much equal high speed which will land my butt in jail if not careful!hnoes

I guess I'm just getting old:W...I kinda misss my 85 HP VW that was a blast to drive despite its low power...Ya know what...its the HANDLING that makes my ride FUN..not brute power....God I am getting OLD!!

 

[toobroketoretire]

Low End Torque

If my '82 was bone stock and it still had the original 2.87 rear end, I would be very satisfied with the Crossfire. But I didn't want my '82 to be a boring daily driver. I wanted my Corvette to run like a Corvette SHOULD run. Quick! Shortly after I got it, I changed the rear gears to 3.54's, added a set of Dart heads, a Erson 214/214 roller cam, a pair of 2.0" throttle bodies, a Hypertech in-line gearotor fuel pump, and a B&M 2000 Holeshot converter. After my modifications, the Crossfire simply wouldn't supply the amount of air my engine needed. So when the Renegade pre-buy plan came along last April, I immediately sent my check to DCS. I'm well aware I will sacrifice some low end grunt but I don't care. I wanted more mid range to upper end power, and I'm quite sure the Renegade will give me what I want.

 

[vetteoz]

.so maybe you need to put YOUR $ where YOUR words are

As Mr Nelson has been the biggest "self" appointed promoter of the the intake across all the C4 Forums it is only fitting that he accurately documents the before and after results .Dyno or strip results will suffice.
Sorry, I forgot ; he is scared of drag strip challenges

As DCS has met such stiff resistance to their new intake in the SmokinVette C4 forum,

And the reason being a certain person aggressively over promoting a new product as the next coming based on only one test of a prototype by the maker

 

[toobroketoretire]

As Mr Nelson has been the biggest "self" appointed promoter of the the intake across all the C4 Forums it is only fitting that he accurately documents the before and after results .Dyno or strip results will suffice.
Sorry, I forgot ; he is scared of drag strip challenges


And the reason being a certain person aggressively over promoting a new product as the next coming based on only one test of a prototype by the maker

Pretty soon I'll have my Renegade mounted on my engine and I'll give you my honest opinion of it. As the new castings will have the same internal dimensions as the welded-up prototype, they should perform about the same. If I feel the new intake has any shortcomings, I'll certainly let everyone know. But I'm expecting it will perform beautifully. I think the boys at DCS have done a spectacular job in designing the Renegade and I admire their courage for going ahead with a project like this. Oddly enough, the majority of those who bash the Renegade aren't even Crossfire owners. As such, I don't know how they feel the new Renegade even concerns them. They don't have enough to do I guess.

 

[vetteboy86]

It's all perspective. Me personally would not want loose low torque to gain minimal high hp. That is not how I drive. I do not go out and run 150 mph regularly. I do however move very quickly from light to light. Having both is just plain fun

My personal obsevation is that the but dyno likes off the line torque rather than high rpm horsepower.

 

[toobroketoretire]

It's all perspective. Me personally would not want loose low torque to gain minimal high hp. That is not how I drive. I do not go out and run 150 mph regularly. I do however move very quickly from light to light. Having both is just plain fun

My personal obsevation is that the but dyno likes off the line torque rather than high rpm horsepower.

I prefer the freeway passing type acceleration rather than off the line. The kind of acceleration where my engine is already buzzing around 3000 rpm. And I very rarely take my car past 100 mph. Most of all I enjoy the 60-100 mph roll-ons. I start off at 60 mph in 3rd gear then rocket up to 100 mph. I used to do 0-60's but I exploded my foreword planetary one day. And the 0-60's are hard on tires and the rest of the drive train.

 

[vetteboy86]

I prefer the freeway passing type acceleration rather than off the line. The kind of acceleration where my engine is already buzzing around 3000 rpm. And I very rarely take my car past 100 mph. Most of all I enjoy the 60-100 mph roll-ons. I start off at 60 mph in 3rd gear then rocket up to 100 mph. I used to do 0-60's but I exploded my foreword planetary one day. And the 0-60's are hard on tires and the rest of the drive train.

Like I said, we all agree to disagree.

 

[toobroketoretire]

Like I said, we all agree to disagree.

Everyone has their own personal preference. After I exploded my foreword planetary in my 700R4, I decided to test my car in a way in which I wouldn't damage it anymore. I still do 0-60's on occasion but not very often. When I exploded my foreword planetary I was doing "stab-and-go" starts and I think the shock load of my 2000 rpm converter hooking up was more than the planetary could handle. It broke into several pieces.

 

[nelson84]

As Mr Nelson has been the biggest "self" appointed promoter of the the intake across all the C4 Forums it is only fitting that he accurately documents the before and after results .Dyno or strip results will suffice.
Sorry, I forgot ; he is scared of drag strip challenges


And the reason being a certain person aggressively over promoting a new product as the next coming based on only one test of a prototype by the maker

No problem, I will give you my seat of the pants dyno and a 0-60 and 1/4 mile when I get it installed. There will be a bunch of us telling you guys how it runs after the install. We will probably tell you it needs NOS, then we will be tickling the 12's.

 

[toobroketoretire]

[QUOTE And the reason being a certain person aggressively over promoting a new product as the next coming based on only one test of a prototype by the maker[/QUOTE]


In a hundred years nobody will care.

 

[vetteoz]

No problem, I will give you my seat of the pants dyno

You learnt nothing over on SmokinVette did you?
SOTP means squat

 

[boomdriver]

[QUOTE And the reason being a certain person aggressively over promoting a new product as the next coming based on only one test of a prototype by the maker

In a hundred years nobody will care.
[/QUOTE]


...lol

it ain;t gonna take near THAT long. Give it a couple weeks !