New intake for crossfire = more HP!!!!

[boomdriver]

It just does not come THAT easy.

More than likely this intake thats showing up wayyyy late is only going to move a few HP around somehwere, not create more.
It'll probably change the way the motor runs, nothing else.
What makes ANYONE think that this mfg discovered something that nobody else has? After CF has been around for 30 yrs?
come on....No one discovers "breakthru" technology on a motor thats been discontinued for 27 years. They might re-market some old technology that was left sitting in a warehouse, but the R&D cost more than the possible financial returns. Why would anyone develope something that has virtually no market? It would take the sale of thousands of manifolds to generate a profit.

Did you ever hear of the electric super-charger? SAme deal. A company based on a technically impossible idea that sounded real good, pre-sold products, and sold investments and stocks and actually never produced anything. The attorney general called it fraud.

 

[nelson84]

It just does not come THAT easy.

More than likely this intake thats showing up wayyyy late is only going to move a few HP around somehwere, not create more.
It'll probably change the way the motor runs, nothing else.
What makes ANYONE think that this mfg discovered something that nobody else has? After CF has been around for 30 yrs?
come on....No one discovers "breakthru" technology on a motor thats been discontinued for 27 years. They might re-market some old technology that was left sitting in a warehouse, but the R&D cost more than the possible financial returns. Why would anyone develope something that has virtually no market? It would take the sale of thousands of manifolds to generate a profit.

Did you ever hear of the electric super-charger? SAme deal. A company based on a technically impossible idea that sounded real good, pre-sold products, and sold investments and stocks and actually never produced anything. The attorney general called it fraud.

It looks good and the idea sems to work, the only problem I see is you might lose low end torque but an easy fix is a higher stall convertor and some 3.73 rear gears. The runners are tapered so the air is compressed as it hits the heads to help with torque. Say what you will I could have thrown $460 out the window but it is a small price to pay to help get this product of the ground and to possibly gain some power out of this restrictive crossfire intake manifold. It will definately be better than porting the stock intake.

 

[vetteboy86]

I had a very similar situation with some headers I pre ordered for my Trans Am. They were Tri Y style. Several sets were produced and pictures of the actual product was released. Several people reported getting units, but I never got mine. I paid over 700 bucks, and so did a ton of other people. First it was the machine shop not producting quality parts, than the guy tried to go out on his own and ended up filing BK. Needless to say, nothing came of it, very big dissapointment.

At the moment I am unfamiliar with the engine management system for the crossfire. What changes need to be made to accomadate an add on part that is suppose to increase hp by 20% give or take?

 

[toobroketoretire]

The Crossfire Injection System

From what I have read, G.M. was planning on permanently shelving the 350" engine in favor of the smaller 305" engine. But in the end, G.M. decided to keep the 350" engine in it's engine lineup. As it was first assumed the 350" was going to be shelved, the Crossfire Injection system was designed for the smaller 305" engine. Rather than design a separate intake system for the larger 350" engine, G.M. decided to use the same induction system on both engines. As the Crossfire Injection was designed for the smaller 305" engine, it didn't provide enough air to a 350" engine at revs higher than 4000 rpm. Then the Crossfire got dropped in favor of the TPI system which was also designed for the 305" engine. As the TPI systems looked cool, aftermarket suppliers jumped on the TPI system but never bothered with the obsolete CFI system. DCS is simply providing a high performance intake manifold to replace the grossly undersized Crossfires. As their Renegade prototype easily outflowed the Crossfire, they gained 33 additional horsepower and 16 ft/lbs more torque at the rear wheels when used on a bone stock 1982 Corvette with 130,000 miles on it.

 

[nelson84]

From what I have read, G.M. was planning on permanently shelving the 350" engine in favor of the smaller 305" engine. But in the end, G.M. decided to keep the 350" engine in it's engine lineup. As it was first assumed the 350" was going to be shelved, the Crossfire Injection system was designed for the smaller 305" engine. Rather than design a separate intake system for the larger 350" engine, G.M. decided to use the same induction system on both engines. As the Crossfire Injection was designed for the smaller 305" engine, it didn't provide enough air to a 350" engine at revs higher than 4000 rpm. Then the Crossfire got dropped in favor of the TPI system which was also designed for the 305" engine. As the TPI systems looked cool, aftermarket suppliers jumped on the TPI system but never bothered with the obsolete CFI system. DCS is simply providing a high performance intake manifold to replace the grossly undersize Crossfires. As their Renegade prototype easily outflowed the Crossfire, they gained 33 additional horsepower and 16 ft/lbs more torque at the rear wheels when used on a bone stock 1982 Corvette with 130,000 miles on it.

Good post

 

[Hib Halverson]

Problem is...it's not true.

 

[toobroketoretire]

Problem is...it's not true.

What's not true? That G.M. was going to discontinue the 350" engines? I have read that many times over the years and it seems very plausible to me.

 

[Hib Halverson]

In the late 70s, then the 2xTBI system was developed, GM never intended to end production of the 350.

The millions of 350 cuin Gen 1 and Gen 2 engines were installed in GM vehicles between 1979 and 2000 seems to refute your belief.

Since you have read that many times over the years, please cite the sources.

 

[catbert]

What's not true? That G.M. was going to discontinue the 350" engines? I have read that many times over the years and it seems very plausible to me.

I've read lots of stuff that wasn't true or never happened. The truth is that GM had good use for the 350, and the tooling was paid for. The 305 wasn't much more fuel efficient. GM wasn't going to retire the 350 with the "hitech" C4 platform already being prepared for production. And then there's the trucks.

 

[T.M.808]

This story on the new Crossfire intake reminds me of the new BBK intake for TPI's... lots of claims, did that thing ever even hit the market yet. Been years now..

 

[toobroketoretire]

Since you have read that many times over the years, please cite the sources.

I don't remember where I have read that, but I have read it quite a few times. DCS is casting their Renegades right now. They haven't gone into full production yet, but I would imagine they will be within the next two weeks. They're tying up a few loose ends and making absolutely sure their product is perfect before releasing them.

Go to www.crossfireinjection.netNEWS for full details on their progress. Click on the top link. When it comes up, scroll down to the very bottom to read their last 3-22-10 update.

 

[toobroketoretire]

The Renegade

It's not rocket science. The Crossfire has runners that are only 2/3rds of the cross section size of a full size port and therefore they quit breathing above 4000 rpm when they're used on a 350" engine. The Renegade however has larger than full size runners from the very beginning that taper down 20% to their discharge ends; ending in an almost full gasket size. I would imagine the 33 horsepower/16 ft/lb gain came from 4000 rpm and up.

 

[Hib Halverson]

Ok...you've dodged my question. I can only assume reality is that you have no credible evidence to back up your earlier statement about GM designing the Crossfire for a 305 because it was going to disconinue the 350...what a crock.

As for the often repeated claim of what the Renegade will do for performance....please see my post on the second page of this thread. That offer still stands.

 

[toobroketoretire]

Ok...you've dodged my question. I can only assume reality is that you have no credible evidence to back up your earlier statement about GM designing the Crossfire for a 305 because it was going to disconinue the 350...what a crock.

As for the often repeated claim of what the Renegade will do for performance....please see my post on the second page of this thread.

You're right. I DON"T have any credible evidence. I am only repeating what I have read (and I admitted that) and I don't remember where I've read it. As far as the Renegade increasing a 350's performance, I can only go by what the original welded-up prototype produced on a bone stock 1982 Corvette with 130,000 miles on it. DCS readily admitted they bumped the timing up 3 degrees and increased fuel pressure to 15 psi for their dyno run. As the castings will share the same internal dimensions as the prototype, it's only logical they will perform the same. Once they're officially released to the public, I'm sure someone will be doing some more dyno testing. As my '82 falls flat on it's face at 4000 rpm, I'm buying a Renegade with the hope it will improve my engine's top end breathing without hurting it's low end too much.

 

[KANE]

In the late 70s, then the 2xTBI system was developed, GM never intended to end production of the 350.

I've read lots of stuff that wasn't true or never happened. The truth is that GM had good use for the 350, and the tooling was paid for. The 305 wasn't much more fuel efficient. GM wasn't going to retire the 350 with the "hitech" C4 platform already being prepared for production. And then there's the trucks.

The "urban myths" that have surrounded the small block go back a good many years. :W


I'd also add that when catbert and Hib are in agreement on something... its likely to be true for sure!

 

[toobroketoretire]

The "urban myths" that have surrounded the small block go back a good many years. :W


I'd also add that when catbert and Hib are in agreement on something... its likely to be true for sure!

So what is the bottom line? Are you saying DCS's claim of 33 additional horsepower and 16 ft/lbs of torque at the rear wheels is false? They made it all up?

 

[toobroketoretire]

The Renegade

When you buzz an engine faster, it automatically makes more horsepower at that higher rpm. With it's superior breathing above 4000 rpm, the Renegade makes a lot more horsepower above 4000 rpm. I have no idea how well it will perform at the extreme bottom end until I get mine on and test it. As my 700R4 has such a low 1st gear and the tach ends up at around 2800 rpm after my full throttle 1-2 shift is made, I'm expecting I will lose very little bottom end. When I'm cruising around at only 1500-1800 rpm, I will likely lose some torque at those real low rpms. But I really don't care as I want better performance higher up the rpm scale.

 

[Crimson Thunder]

Let me get this straight,this thread has been going on for a year and a half and you still don't have your new intake yet? That would raise some serious red flags for me.

P.S. I happen to like Dave Emmanuel.

 

[toobroketoretire]

Let me get this straight,this thread has been going on for a year and a half and you still don't have your new intake yet? That would raise some serious red flags for me.

P.S. I happen to like Dave Emmanuel.

When DCS got the bright idea to make and sell these manifolds in late 2008, they were unsure of what kind of market there would truly be for them. So they asked us to commit ourselves by paying for them upfront. DCS felt there had to be at least "X" number of people interested or they wouldn't bother taking the project any further. They came fairly close to the numbers they had hoped for and decided to go ahead with the project. They hired a pattern maker and started designing the tooling necessary to make the sand molds. In about August or September of 2009, they were totally disgusted with the pattern maker's progress and fired him. They found a new pattern maker and resumed where they had left off. Since January of this year, they have cast about a half dozen test manifolds and they're very happy with the way they are coming out. At this time they have almost all of the bugs out and are getting ready to go into full production. It takes a lot of time to design and make something like the Renegade, and I don't think a year is an unusual amount of time. I mailed my check for $460 the day after they made the pre-buy announcement, and that was on March 24th of 2009. So barely a year has passed since they officially started this project.

Who is Dave Emmanuel? Never heard of him.

 

[toobroketoretire]

[QUOTE

BTW, on their website: www.CrossfireInjection.net - News
"We have tested the RENEGADE on our own 383 CFI motors against the competitions manifold and noticed a dyno proven 20+RWHP gain over that manifold without any further tuning or fuel pressure adjustments, just swapped out the competitions manifold and installed the Renegade and hit it."

Doesn't seem too impressive actually [/QUOTE]


Which competitor's manifold was the Renegade tested against? Was it the X-Ram? If so, then a 20 horsepower gain WOULD be impressive because the X-Ram added a considerable amount of horsepower over the Crossfire. The bottom line is the Renegade will be a big improvement over the Crossfire at rpm's over 4000. It may fall a bit short on torque at the extreme bottom end, but I don't spend much time running my engine at the extreme bottom end. Nor does anyone else for that matter. About the slowest my engine ever operates is 1000-1500 rpm for around town, and then around 2000 rpm running 65 mph in 4th gear. Then when I punch it, my revs come up into my engine's power band and stays there until I back out of the throttle. If I have to give up a little bit of bottom end torque, then so be it. All I have ever wanted was the ability to rev my engine beyond 4000 rpm and still have it pull hard. And the Renegade will allow my engine to do that. After waiting for 22 years, someone is finally making a truly high performance REPLACEMENT manifold. And as it will look just like the Crossfire, I'll have no problem passing my California smog tests.