No hot start--new starter

[WhalePirot]

I hope I have this one licked. The 'new' GM mini starter, with the gear reduction, would not crank my engine, when it was hot. It acted like a low battery. One opinion holds that it is not the greatest design, as the solenoid is small, and 'packed' inside, which does not allow any cooling. This is an issue with headers.

I found a great shop, in Whittier, CA www.hitorque.com who uses a Denso motor on their custom mounting plates. You can read the claims and wait for the longterm test here, if you care. I found Jack and his son Chris, very friendly and knowledgeable. The pieces are well made and the plate allows rotational adjustment of the starter motor and solenoid to achieve optimal spacing from hot exhaust and block. I believe this will solve my problem, at about 1/3 the cost of a Tilton. the short-term test was a success.

One member suggested, on another thread, a remote solenoid, ala FoMoCo. I was told it would just add another component and not fix my, perhaps, sticky-when-hot solenoid. Perhaps I misunderstood.

 

[WhalePirot]

Not licked! Frustrating 'cause of great weather-little driving

The problem is back again with not that many hours on the engine and this new starter. It starts if allowed to cool or if jumped.

I also installed a remote solenoid, which made no difference, but was a fair bit of work. The IMI tekkie said, after the fact, it would not help but offered to check out their starter.

Reminder: the starter heat blanket did a great job of retaining heat there. Also, ThermoTec wrapping/painting increased heat retention in these (TPIS)coated headers.

I was condemning the Optima battery, which accepts no (external) charge after the car just sits overnight, so I doubt, 1) it is draining internally, or 2) the car is draining it excessively. Recharging, back at the garage after a drive, seems of normal length, but as if little or none is taking place from the engine, despite the #2 wire feeding the (+) terminal, though the remote solenoid, to the starter. The dash-indicated voltage shows nearly continual charging, over an abnormally long drive time, which is why I suspected the battery. I am considering the somewhat involved installation of #2 wire from the alternator, but am tired of just throwing parts at this. The voltage differences between the (+) terminals at the alternator, solenoid and battery are within 0.5vdc, by my DVOM. Also, after a lengthy sit, the permanetly maounted NAPA battery maintainer seemed to do little to keep the battery topped off.

One expert suggests a VAT drain test of the battery and the charging system. Another suggests that I am 'cooking' starters due to the headers and limited airflow under the C-4 hood, suggesting a METAL starter heat shield which will allow cooling airflow to reach the starter.

I never had this problem with the Thermo-Tec(ed) headers on my warmed-up L-83, but it never generated the power (and the heat) of this 406. Dang it! I want to, but cannot enjoy drives, because I never know if the car will restart. I am tired o seeking a downhill-facing parking spot for 2nd gear pop-starts.

Now, I know others are running wilder engines in C-4s without this issue. How?

 

[Vettelt193]

the starter engages, correct? It just doesn't turn the engine over?

are you sure it is temperature related, and not just the starter having difficulty with your engine just after shut down. Meaning, if you fire the engine while cold and run for a couple minutes, shut down, and start again does it fire?

 

[Ken]

Have you looked into the electrical part of the equation Mike? What about the positive lead to the starter - is it too long? (I forget where your battery is located.) What about the grounds? Have you tried adding extra ground wires?

I wouldn't doubt that the problem's electrical in nature, and not the starter. When the starter's warm (or hot), it's going to draw more power, so your electrical system's got to be up to snuff.

 

[WhalePirot]

the starter engages, correct? It just doesn't turn the engine over?

Yup. She groans and moans like the battery is real low.

are you sure it is temperature related, and not just the starter having difficulty with your engine just after shut down. Meaning, if you fire the engine while cold and run for a couple minutes, shut down, and start again does it fire?

Good thought and I have done this a few times, in varied ways. First, I started the car three times in succession, with 1-2 minute run times between. Worked just fine. Measurement indicated that about 8.3vdc at the lowest, with each attempt. The charger current was reasonable after that series. Actually, each try seemed easier for the starter, but the ECM was not pleased.

Last night, I went out, parked for 90 minutes or so (top still off the car ) and upon return to the garage, it would not start. In the past, I noticed that really using the power of the engine or extended drives (both generate a lot of heat build-up) made it iffy that the engine would crank over. I was surprised to see the charger start at 5 amps, but know nighttime ops drain more juice. The drive was about 10 minutes each way and I only floored it twice (maybe 3; okay 4).

Today, I did a similar length drive with a shorter parking time. The car started there and back here, and the heat issue was less.

I am thinking that each starter's internal insulation has cooked, as my 'electrical' pal suggests.

Thanks for the continued suggestions.

 

[WhalePirot]

the positive lead to the starter - is it too long?

As the battery is behind the pax seat, a pinky-sized (#2) wire runs to the remote solenoid. It is from the Summit battery relocation kit. Virtually everyone thinks that wire is large enough. The same sized wire runs about 15" to the starter. Each end is crimped and soldered filled. The terminal ends are virtually new and clean, as is the alternator.

Have you tried adding extra ground wires?

Yes, between a starter bolt and the adjacent frame.

 

[Ken]

I'm still bettin' that it's electrical in nature Mike. Mine acted the same way if I didn't have extra grounds; I grounded mine both at the battery (to the frame) and also added a ground of equivalent thinkness (#2 or so - the same size as the postive) at the front between the bellhousing and the frame.

I haven't had a heat-sink problem with mine at all. I removed all the extra heat shielding long ago.

 

[Vettelt193]

I'm still bettin' that it's electrical in nature Mike. Mine acted the same way if I didn't have extra grounds; I grounded mine both at the battery (to the frame) and also added a ground of equivalent thinkness (#2 or so - the same size as the postive) at the front between the bellhousing and the frame.

I haven't had a heat-sink problem with mine at all. I removed all the extra heat shielding long ago.

I am with Ken... electrical problem.

not sure if it is the grounds, but it is easy enough to add a wire or two.

Could it be a battery drain problem? Meaning, if the car doesn't start, you wind up jumping it, correct? -- If so, you could have an intermittant drain on the battery... unusual, but still possible with all the electrical stuff on our cars. The key with this one is to do a drain check every time you shut the car off until you check it as ok, and it still wont start after a while (you don't need to let me know how much of a PITA that would be). The thing is, it could be something as stupid as a wire grounding out only some of the time... or when you shut the door a wire is loose and holds a switch on (door lock switch, window switch somehow?) Every once in a while, I will shut my door, and the doors will unlock -- figure that one out LMAO

It would be a long-shot to say you are cooking the starter if it still won't start after 90 minutes IMO.

 

[G Winter]

Just a few things to think about that crossed my[sometimes wondering] mind.I may not be 100% correct on all this but maybe some of it will help.
What length of total cable is between the battery and the starter? The longer the wire the larger diamiter it needs to be. Off hand I don't remember how large a # 2 wire is , you say pinky size . Is that including the insulation?
You have to remember you could be drawing well over 500 amps trying to start the warm engine. Plus losses in the electrical efficiency due to heat. Next time you run a test with warm engine. Try starting it and then check the cable for heat near the battery . If cable is warm to touch it may be to small for the distance your are running it. At the same time a bad starter would give the same indication. Have you tried checking starter draw while cranking ? Check it cold and hot. Should be specs somewhere on what it should be.

 

[photovette]

Believe it or not, a weak ignition coil will cause the same problem to occur.

 

[Ken]

For the rear-mounted battery setups, it's recommended to use welding cable, correct? What size is that? :confused

I used whatever Taylor provides, plus my own additional (normal size) battery ground cable.

 

[iron cross]

Weak hot Starts?

I may have missed something, but only one answer suggested a VAT test. New battery, new GM perminate magnet starter, then check the alternator charging amps or volts if it cranks correctly when cold and not when warm or after driving for a while. You may actually be running off the battery and the alternator may not be replacing the voltage while driving resulting in not enough cranking voltage for a restart. Dont blame the battery and starter, check the alternator and it more likely will solve the hot start problem

 

[wilezcoyote]

Problem I had with Optima Battery

when i installed an Optima redtop battery in my vette last May everything was fine for about a month. After that I started having weird starting issues and a weak battery. Finally one day at the post office it just died and would shut off as soon as the jumper cables were removed. Checked everything, went nuts until I looked at the frame brace over the battery. Part of the brace had rubbed through the little plastic cap on one of the battery terminals. It wasn't touching the brace at the time but you could see a tiny spot where it had grounded out.

I fixed it by notching the the frame brace with a grinding wheel on a Dremel tool and removing some of the stiffener ribs in the top of the battery tray so the battery would sit lower and more securely in the tray.

 

[WhalePirot]

only one answer suggested a VAT test.

Yeah, I got that idea from a friend, but we haven't had a chance to do it.

You may actually be running off the battery and the alternator may not be replacing the voltage while driving resulting in not enough cranking voltage for a restart. Don't blame the battery and starter, check the alternator and it more likely will solve the hot start problem

That's what I originally thought and I hope that the VAT test will tell me what to fix. I mentioned that I have thought of enlarging the 'charging' wire, from the alternator to the solenoid, but want to know that such will fix things. I am more likely to think tht night ops make the car run an electrical 'deficit'.

You guys are great. thanks.

 

[WhalePirot]

Short night drive tonight. Dash charging voltages looked normal, but charger read 5-6 amps upon return (after a no-start with charger on CHARGE). It charged the battery fairly quickly.

 

[Ken]

Hey Mike, tonight while I was coming back from Ricky & Ronnie's, I noticed my lights going dim whenever my engine rpms got too low (below 10 volts) and brightened again when the rpms came back up. What alternator are you running? Is it enough to keep the battery fully charged?

What about the outcome of the VAT test?? You been doin' any other testing?

 

[WhalePirot]

The VAT test is delayed as my 'guy' got more 'D' papers from the lawyer. Then we flew out for a couple of days, so I only got a short drive tonight. I had two stops but left it running with windows up (top still off) and doors locked (my key comes out) during the quick run-ins. Charging voltage with this stock alternator dropped from 14.4 initially, to 13.7. I saw no light dimming.

I didn't think of returning to retry a start after a short charge, but with the engine still hot, until too late; after the engine had cooled.

 

[Nitronick]

On my wire size/voltage calculator, I am showing a voltage drop of 1.6 volts using AWG2 wire over an 8 foot distance. 500amps @ 12 volts. Increasing the size to AWG#00 puts it at .7 volt drop. If you can get me more accurate distances and other values, I can put those in and we will have a better idea of the actual drop.
Also remember that the charging system is going to see a voltage drop over the distance from the alternator to the battery.

 

[WhalePirot]

I wish I had more confidence in the VAT test, as their tool was quite beaten up. I wish I had confidence in their conclusion that this is ANOTHER lousy OPTIMA battery (third, in two vehicles).

I wish OPTIMA had some customer service, too.

I think I will go to a specialty electric shop in the morning; a place that's been around for over a decade, to get another opinion.

See, I had to jump the car at the shop to get home. The charger began at 5 amps, but I was able to crank the car after it dropped to 1 amp. I then started it 5 times in succession, the last 2 or 3 times with the headlights and HVAC blower on! Then, it got sluggish; no start; charger read 6+ amps

The car seemed to turn over easier, after the initial rotation. Could there be an issue with a tight engine when it is hot? I am running Valvoline 20W50, at least until I get my oil leaks stopped.

 

[Ken]

Mike, bear with me, I forget - how many miles on this engine? It's still relatively new isn't it? Guess it could be an issue.