problem NOT solved! HELP

[BarryK]

I vote it is the clutch Fan. I would bet you can beat the GM cost at any auto parts store!! It shouldn't freewheel as much as you said it does. If you don't mind not being OEM original you can replace the clutch fan with a flex fan and it will cool down the motor better. Good Luck.


Randy

vette-dude

just about everything on the car is stock and i'd prefer to try and keep it that way, especially if the aftermarket fan clutch and flex-fan looks a lot different. With stock pieces it was keeping nice and cool with no problem previously.

 

[JL66REDCPE]

Did you check the thermostat in hot water with an IR gun to make sure it was opening at the proper temperature or at all before you installed it ???

Are you sure the initial timing is correct -- you already recvd my comments on your timing procedure. How many degrees advance are you getting at idle with the can connected and also disconnected.

Did someone play the carb recently perhaps giving a lean mixture ??

Is the fan belt tight ???

If the engine did not run hot before, it should not run hot now.

Based on what you have said -- Yes, your fan clutch definitely failed the test and that could be it. You can get a new one from Paragon also. You need to do the test with the engine warm. If it spins more than three times -- it is bad. The replacement fan clutchs tighten up at a much higher temp than original ones.

I still think it is initial timing.

Hard to troubleshoot without being at the car.

 

[Subfixer]

hmmmmmm
everything is now pointing to that fan clutch........
expensive part
how hard is the removel and reinstall of it?

4 bolts to get it off the waterpump, another 4 bolts to separate it from the fan. Install in reverse order of disassembly. Takes about 15 minutes.

 

[BarryK]

Brian
I'd prefer to stay with stock parts but $35 sound a LOT better than almost $200!!
how hard is it to install, and remeber I'm VERY new at working on my car (only 2 days now! )

my can is marked 236 on the bracket - it came from LICS when i got all the other parts for the distributor rebuild last year but perhaps it's wrong. I wouldn't know unfortunately.

 

[Mike McKown]

thanks for responding Mike

no, when I removed the t-stat housing I could not see any coolant so the level must have been low enough to have taken it all out of the manifold.

I checked the fan as you suggested. As i rev the engine I can feel it blow air harder.
at idle, there is not what what i would refer to as a STIFF brezze, just barely some air movement. As i rev it it will increase but it's not as much as i would have expected but never having done it before I have nothing to compare against.

No, I don't have an IR gun. I treid to get one at Sears the other day but they don't carry them or didn't have any in stock.
I restarted the motor and actually took the cap of the expansion tank off completely than waited for the motor to warm up. once it reached 180* according to the gauge I started watching the coolant level. I didn't see any change in the level at all that I noticed either going up or down. The temp reached just barely shy of the 220* mark on the gauge and still no change that i saw in the coolant level - MAYBE just a tab bit down, MAYBE, but I can't say for sure 100%.
No coolant surged out of the tank or the overflow tube. I than reinstalled the expansion tank cap and just let it sit and idle for a while more. Temp stayed right at the point just barely shy of the 220* mark and wouldn't move any further which at least is better than fefore when it almost pegged out the 240* mark at traffic lights.

so, from what I can piece together, either the fan clutch could be shot or the temp sender is inaccurate and the mechanic lied about checking it with an IR gun when he said he did. Would these conclusions sound correct?

All three sound likely correct.

The thing is though, if you're not geysering coolant all over the place with the cap off, you know you not reaching even 212 or the boiling point of water. If your wife has a baking thermometer try wiring it to your thermostat housing
and top hose and take a reading,

Sounds like your sending unit/guage needs calibrating. I have no advice on this subject.

Back to the fan. Grab the blade and lightly pull it fore/aft from the tip of a blade. If it seems very loose, the clutch needs to be replace in any case as these things will come apart and the clutch and blade will go right on through the radiator. Otherwise I'd get my guage calibrated and see what happened from there before I'd spring for a new fan clutch.

 

[Subfixer]

Barry, once you get to Carlisle (and you WILL be there), I'm going to be all over your car. We'll get everything fixed correctly.

 

[BarryK]

Did you check the thermostat in hot water with an IR gun to make sure it was opening at the proper temperature or at all before you installed it ???

Are you sure the initial timing is correct -- you already recvd my comments on your timing procedure. How many degrees advance are you getting at idle with the can connected and also disconnected.

Did someone play the carb recently perhaps giving a lean mixture ??

Is the fan belt tight ???

If the engine did not run hot before, it should not run hot now.

Based on what you have said -- Yes, your fan clutch definitely failed the test and that could be it. You can get a new one from Paragon also. You need to do the test with the engine warm. If it spins more than three times -- it is bad. The replacement fan clutchs tighten up at a much higher temp than original ones.

I still think it is initial timing.

Hard to troubleshoot without being at the car.

don't have an IR gun yet John and didn't check the new t-stat in hot water before installing. being new I figured it was probably good. Lesson learned for the future.

the mechanic last week did make adjustments to the carb - he said it needed a little tweaking but not much but I don't know what he did to it.

yep, belt is tight - just went out and double checked it.

I'm leaning towards the fan clutch too from what everyone tells me. looks like I needs to buy a new fan clutch.
between what the useless mechanic charged me last week, than buying all the stuff the other day to redo the work myself, and now this, it looks like i'm going to have to cancel my appt with Al Knoch at Carlise for for seats to be redone - I'm blowing the seat budget on these repairs.

re: the timing. I don't remember now what my final numbers were. After i did it per Lars paper I test drove it and she ran great and now i forget all the numbers again. i'll go back out and get timing numbers at idle with and without the vacuum line hooked to the can and give them to you

 

[BarryK]

4 bolts to get it off the waterpump, another 4 bolts to separate it from the fan. Install in reverse order of disassembly. Takes about 15 minutes.

just went out and looked - does look pretty easy. I guess it's something I can handle. At least that's good news anyway as I no longer have any mechanic i'm willing to take the car to.

 

[61 Silver]

Ray
that's not good news......
if I start the motor than turn it off (just did it since the motor is still very warm) it spins a LOT more than 4 or 5 revolutions. It spins for a good 15 secs or so until it stops.

supposably the mechanic last week checked the system with a IR gun and said it was pretty accurate to the guage - only off by a few degrees.

There is a slight amount of dust on the fins but bot what i would a lot or an excess amount but i'll try cleaning it off later. I don't have an air compressor to blow air, so will a water hose do the same?

HI! BARRY

I run a replacement fun clutch that I purchased from NAPA at a cost of $40,00. I put the original clutch in storage and will only use it if I have the car judged. I was at a Tech. Seminar and the master judge suggested replacing any original clutch and storing the clutch in a position that is like it was installed in the car. The aftermarket NAPA clutch is larger and you can identify it as an aftermarket, but most people do not know the difference. If you purchase one of these clutches, make sure you have the correct nuts for the replacement clutch. Some have course threads and some have fine threads. It will save you a return trip to the auto parts store.



Ray

 

[BarryK]

Barry, once you get to Carlisle (and you WILL be there), I'm going to be all over your car. We'll get everything fixed correctly.

Paul
i'd LOVE to have someone with knowledge look over my car - i'll welcome it GREATLY!
unless I can get some answers (not from you guys, I know you are all doing everything possible to help - i mean ME finding the definate problem and getting it resolved) I'm not going to Carlisle because I'm afraid of driving 2 1/2 hours if the car is running hot.

 

[BarryK]

HI! BARRY

I run a replacement fun clutch that I purchased from NAPA at a cost of $40,00. I put the original clutch in storage and will only use it if I have the car judged. I was at a Tech. Seminar and the master judge suggested replacing any original clutch and storing the clutch in a position that is like it was installed in the car. The aftermarket NAPA clutch is larger and you can identify it as an aftermarket, but most people do not know the difference. If you purchase one of these clutches, make sure you have the correct nuts for the replacement clutch. Some have course threads and some have fine threads. It will save you a return trip to the auto parts store.



Ray

Thanks Ray, at this point i'm leaning towards $40 being a LOT better than almost $200 and i don't send the car for judging anyway......... wanting to keep parts stock was only for the principle of it but not at that price difference.

 

[allcoupedup]

I gave you bad info - can should be marked B28

I'll go back and change the post

 

[allcoupedup]

Brian
how hard is it to install, and remeber I'm VERY new at working on my car (only 2 days now! )

QUOTE]


My fan clutch goes on and off with 4 bolts - don't even have to remove the water pump. The bolts are slightly difficult to get it so I have to use an open end wrench.

Brian

 

[Mike McKown]

Paul
i'd LOVE to have someone with knowledge look over my car - i'll welcome it GREATLY!
unless I can get some answers (not from you guys, I know you are all doing everything possible to help - i mean ME finding the definate problem and getting it resolved) I'm not going to Carlisle because I'm afraid of driving 2 1/2 hours if the car is running hot.

Barry:

I'm not satisfied that you have shown your engine is running as hot as you say it is. If the guage is showing 220 and the surge tank cap is off and you're not boiling water out, your guage is giving you a false reading. Water boils at 212.

Until you establish what temp your engine is really running, you're just chasing your tail and throwing money away.

You may not even have a problem at all except a faulty guage reading.

 

[BarryK]

Brian
I looked, the fan clutch looks pretty easy

Mike
doesn't the coolant increase the boiling point though?
yes, anything is possible - really wish i had a IR gun.
would a digital termometer probe inside the expansion take to measure the temp of the coolant work? I have a digital thermometer I use in the kitchen

 

[ctjackster]

Brian - good of you to fix that, I am now erasing my reply on the correct vac can!

Barry - like I said, you can do the fan clutch thing, whichever one you buy (after S&H the GM (Eaton) one will come to $130 or so from GMPD, but since you are after a quick turnaround time you can surely pick up a parts store job (likely made by Hayden)) will surely suffice. DO check your initial timing beforehand though, and confirm it is within range of spec. If ok, go buy an inexpensive fan clutch, put it on (You will likely need to loosen the belt by loosening the alternator - one bolt - to make the job easiser) Then drive it around in the heat, and take it to Carlisile unless there is coolant puking out of the car !

 

[Subfixer]

Paul
i'd LOVE to have someone with knowledge look over my car - i'll welcome it GREATLY!
unless I can get some answers (not from you guys, I know you are all doing everything possible to help - i mean ME finding the definate problem and getting it resolved) I'm not going to Carlisle because I'm afraid of driving 2 1/2 hours if the car is running hot.

If you don't make it to Carlisle, maybe I can make a slight detour on my return trip home. Will have to clear it with Mrs. Subfixer as she'll be driving the "support vehicle" with camper in tow.

 

[Mike McKown]

Brian
I looked, the fan clutch looks pretty easy

Mike
doesn't the coolant increase the boiling point though?
yes, anything is possible - really wish i had a IR gun.
would a digital termometer probe inside the expansion take to measure the temp of the coolant work? I have a digital thermometer I use in the kitchen

I think you missed my previous post. Back up to my last post. I covered part of what you're talking about. I pulled it out to edit and you probably missed it. What makes me suspicious here is that in this thread and your other one, I don't recall you giving any indication that you have been boiling out any coolant which you more than likely would, even under pressure and a TRUE guage reading of 240.

If your "restored" engine has what looks like a brand new shiney temp sensor in it, it's probably giving you a false reading based on what other have indicated about replacement sensors. Very common to get false readings.

I just think you should know where you are so you can know where you're going.

 

[BarryK]

yeah, I'll double check the timing again - I was so proud of myself after doing it yesterday but chances are I did it wrong no matter how well the car drove afterwards.

Time to take all the shielding off again......... and start all over.
SIGH! :ugh

between working on the car and running back here to check and answer replies, and back to the car again, I'm exhausted and dripping wet (real humid here today).
i'm taking a break for an hour or so to clear my head before working on it again. already have a headache from this crap!

 

[BarryK]

Mike
i replaced the temp sender myself last summer and i don't remember it giving me readings this high after i put it in. i know the replacements are notorious for not being accurate but sheesh, this is a lot