Recommend a good lifter choice....?

[AUSSIEVETTEMAN]

Hi guys,

Well the this will be the fourth time in 14 months we have had to adjust the Roller Rockers we installed onto the Vette.
We have replaced a set of Speed Pro hydraulic lifters at 8 months into the engine warranty time (12 months). The valve train has taken another 6 months to rattle up again.

I do not know what is out and have started to gather the specs of the cam, lifters and roller rockers.
The cam is a Speed Pro CS1013R Cam.
Push rods are standard GM, our old ones cleaned, tips are good.
Lifters are standard hydraulic - Speed Pro.
Roller Rockers are Yella Terra Steet Terra's ST2004 - 3/8" stud mount (1.6)

Inlet lift at valve is .443
Exhaust lift at valve is .465
SAE 288 degrees inlet and 298 exhaust

Any tips on what could be causing the premature failure of the lifters?

Cheers

Tony

 

[JohnZ]

Are the failed lifters chewed-up on the bottom, or are they failing internally (piddle valve, spring, disc, etc.)? What are the specs of the valve springs you're using (that's a pretty mild street torque cam, doesn't need or want super-duper nuclear spring rates)? Also, not a great idea to put new lifters on a used cam.

 

[AUSSIEVETTEMAN]

Are the failed lifters chewed-up on the bottom, or are they failing internally (piddle valve, spring, disc, etc.)? What are the specs of the valve springs you're using (that's a pretty mild street torque cam, doesn't need or want super-duper nuclear spring rates)? Also, not a great idea to put new lifters on a used cam.

John,

From what the guys who did the warranty work told me, the internals in the lifters let go. The engineers are saying that in a few of the engines they have done in the last couple of years, the lifters have let go and let them down. They said that the quality is crap lately. These guys machine racing blocks for our V8 Supercar series here and supply bits, so I am not arguing with their comments. I'll have to get the specs of the lifters, valve springs are LT1 Vette. They said they only use Speed Pro (Federal Mogul) or Crane.
Yesterday, we adjusted the rollers again, results:

Pot 1: Exhaust OK, Inlet Loose
Pot 3: Exhaust Loose, Inlet OK
Pot 5: Exhaust OK, Inlet OK
Pot 7: Exhaust OK, Inlet OK

Pot 2: Exhaust OK, Inlet OK
Pot 4: Exhaust OK, Inlet OK
Pot 6: Exhaust OK, Inlet OK
Pot 8: Exhaust OK, Inlet Loose.

As I said, it was only starting to rattle up, just enough for me to here her when she idled down from revs. She is quiet now, all rockers firm + half a turn on then locked off. I'll see how she goes at that, but from what I was told by the engineers at Yella Terra, she shouldn't have rattled up that quick and be causing grief.
I think it is the lifters though. Maybe they needed some adjustment after being replaced 6 months ago and have bed in now?

The cam is only 14 months old, I know what you are saying with the old cam, new lifter scenario.
No, she's not a super cam, longer duration and good torque (330 lbs/ft @ 3200 rpm) for a basically stock engine, I am happy with that.

I'll try to get the specs on the lifters and let you know.


Tony

 

[Twin_Turbo]

Frankly, almost all flat tapped hydraulics available are not as good as the ones GM used to use, they had the ones w/ the hardened insert at the foot...those lifters are much better than what's on the market today. I saved all my old sets of these and they can be carefully checked, cleaned and prepped for reuse if the foot is not work (or any other part is worn), they're easy to recognise and some have a nice oil slot on them also. Maybe you can see if you can find a couple of used sets, check each one carefully and prep them so you have 16 you can use.

 

[goingballistic]

It could be that the push rod length is wrong. I just did some extensive research in the rebuild I'm doing and the number one problem I came across for lifter failure is that the push rods are either too long (geometry allows the roller to go off the valve stem "outboard of center line" and float the lifter) or the rod is too short allowing the same problem to the inboard side. If the preload is not set correctly on the lifters with the right rods, there can be too much pressure ( or not enough causing "slap" of the rod) on the lifter causing premature failure. Have the guys check the preload, valve lash and the geometry of the roller on the valve stem. If you've changed anything in the valve train stock rods may not work, I had to extend mine to accomodate the new train by 0.150 from stock not much but made a world of difference in the geometry.


Good luck.

 

[Jack]

It could be that the push rod length is wrong.

DITTO.
JACK:gap

 

[AUSSIEVETTEMAN]

Thanks Ballistic & Jack, that is what I am thinking.

I'll post once I get the rest of the specs, but even the engineers at Yella Terra said that there was something wrong with the setup and that I shouldn't have had to adjust the rollers for around 100000 km.

Cheers

Tony

 

[Jack]

The cam is a Speed Pro CS1013R Cam.
Push rods are standard GM, our old ones cleaned, tips are good.
Lifters are standard hydraulic - Speed Pro.
Roller Rockers are Yella Terra Steet Terra's ST2004 - 3/8" stud mount (1.6)

Inlet lift at valve is .443
Exhaust lift at valve is .465
SAE 288 degrees inlet and 298 exhaustTony

Your 443/465,288/298 specs are correct for CS1013R with OE 1.5 RAR ... not 1.6.

Also Tony, IF, IF you have 1.6 rocker arm ratio w/CS1013R cam ... then your above specs for lift at valve are incorrect. Corrected specs are about .473"I/.496"E. And add about 2 degrees to duration ... at 0.050" LIFTER lift w/ 1.6 RAR it's probably about 216*I/226*E.

I don't know how much lift your springs or their shim-setup can handle ... but possible coil bind/retainer-to-seal interference should be considered ... in addition to pushrod length.
JACK:gap

 

[Tom Bryant]

Jack has a good point there. I don't know where LT1 springs bind at either but if you are bottoming them out with the additional lift of the 1.6 rockers at higher rpm then the lifters are beng beaten to death. The pushrod issue may also contribute to the problem. If the block has been decked and/or the heads milled you may need to install shorter pushrods as you may be getting much more lift than you think.

So, based on what everyone has said:

1. Check the roller contact pattern on the valve stem tip during the full lift cycle. It doesn't want to start at zero lift or finish at full lift too close to either edge. It should move back and forth across the center of the stem. It it goes further to one side than the other you need to adjust push rod length to get it running in the center.

2. At full lift see if you can insert a feeler guage freely between the valve spring coil. I think they consider .020 enough.

3. Check that the spring retainer isn't bottoming out on the valve guide boss. It could be that they may need to be machined a little for clearance.

4. If you have no binding, geometry or clearance issues and since you have changed lifters a couple times already, I'd check each lobe for lift at the lifter, not the valve. Put a dial indicator on the lifter shell, not the plunger, and check each lobe for lift compared to the manufacturer's specs. Hopefully none of these bad lifters have eaten away at the cam lobes yet but it's possible.

Since this is a fairly mild cam why don't you just get a set of genuine Chevrolet lifters? Think of the trillions of miles they have run over the years even in high reving small blocks like the L79, L82 and the '69 350/350. I've seen some serious rpms turned in L79s without lifter failure.

Tom

 

[AUSSIEVETTEMAN]

Thanks Jack & Tom

Jack has a good point there. I don't know where LT1 springs bind at either but if you are bottoming them out with the additional lift of the 1.6 rockers at higher rpm then the lifters are beng beaten to death. The pushrod issue may also contribute to the problem. If the block has been decked and/or the heads milled you may need to install shorter pushrods as you may be getting much more lift than you think.

Thanks Tom & Jack.
Yes the block has been decked and bored 20 thou. Rollers are 1.6's, they are stamped so on each rocker arm. When we checked the rockers and push rods the other day, an old mate in the Corvette Club got out the calculator and said that the lift is high. He has 1.6's on his Vette, a 77 with a 350 on steroids!

I'll check out the GM lifter choice, you have a good point here Tom.

The corrected specs you have Jack are the same ones we spun up on the calculator.
I reckon you are both right as we could not have done two sets of lifters in less than 18 months.

I'll do some checking.

Thanks Guys

Tony

 

[goingballistic]

Tony, keep us in the loop as to what you find here, I'm really curious as to what happened/is happening with that. As someone coming down the road on a full rebuild, any insight I get is better than firing this baby up blind.


PS I used to work with a guy named Tony from the Gold Coast, he worked for Kodak over there in Brisbane.

Cheers.

 

[AUSSIEVETTEMAN]

Last time I go back there.....

We are now having dramas with the engineering shop. I spoke to the owner today and explained everything and gave him the specs, he told me it was garbage!
Well I said something must be wrong, she keeps chewing lifters. He said that the cam could have been damaged with the original set of Federal Mogul lifters, when they went bad (although he didn't say why they went bad).
He said that if the cam was cactus, we would continue to replace lifters very frequently. He offered to replace the cam, lifters and gaskets if I paid for the labour for my Vette mechanic to do the work.
No way, if the cam comes out, then the same 'aint goin back in'! The money I would save by not paying labour costs would be huge. Our mechanic charges around $65 AU per hour, I am guessing around $1000 AU in labour alone!
He does reckon he can pull the cam without pulling the donk out. Have any of you fellas been successfull replacing cams without pulling the donks completely out? I think it could be done, pull the radiator etc out, I think there would be enough room to pull the lump stick out.
With the saving of $$$, I could put on the Rum for a couple of fellow Corvette nuts, buy a roller cam/ lifter setup, rods to suit the Yella Terra Roller Rockers and cam and have some left over so the 'Missus' doesn't complain. :naughty: :booty

Look at it this way, the lifters are on their way out, something has caused yet another set to fail. The cam possibly has damage to the lobes and if it has, it needs to come out.

Anyone suggest a good setup?
I want to keep the Yella Terra roller rockers, beautiful things they are, work of art! I am leaning towards a Crane cam and lifters, what do you fellas reckon? What part numbers etc.

If you want somethin done, betta do'in it yourself!

Cheers

Tony

 

[Tom Bryant]

I like the idea of a hyd roller in your engine. I also like Crane products. I recently put a Crane manufactured GM performance cam in my 355 engine project for my custom truck. I have never changed the cam in a shark with the engine in but it should work. I'm sure others here have.

As for which one, you will get as many opinions as people that respond to your question. I suggest you go directly to Crane's Tech Line. They will ask all of the right questions and make a sound recommendation based on your car and engine combination.

Go to Crane at http://www.cranecams.com and click on the Tech Support box in the upper right corner. They have a phone number and a fax number listed. If it is a big hassle calling from down under I will be glad to make the call for you if you supply the info.

Tom

 

[Jack]

We are now having dramas with the engineering shop. I spoke to the owner today and explained everything and gave him the specs, he told me it was garbage!

Have any of you fellas been successfull replacing cams without pulling the donks completely out? I think it could be done, pull the radiator etc out, I think there would be enough room to pull the lump stick out.Tony

You must now know the issues regarding coil bind-too much lift are not garbage. If your mechanic/shop is not aware of how this works, then you need to find a different "expert" shop (or learn to do it yourself). But, these are well-known basics; I suspect your mechanic/shop is attempting to avoid responsibility. If shop both approved parts choices & installed the valve train ... At minimum shop should have measured spring height and coil bind (and retainer-to-seal or retainer-to guide) ... and compared that with lobe lift, rocker arm ratio & valve lift. Is there a record of this in the work order/receipts? If this cannot be confirmed, you still need to check for coil bind ... regardless which cam goes back into it. Mismatched components and/or inadequate spring-spacing may or may not be your problem, but NEEDS checking ... to help rule-in or rule-out failure cause(s) & diagnose what may have happened ... and to ensure proper setup for any new cam.

Yes the cam will come out the front of motor if radiator is first removed. If car has A/C, condenser must come out too. Intake manifold must also be removed to access lifters. Take the hood off too ... it'll make the job a lot easier.
JACK:gap

 

[AUSSIEVETTEMAN]

...I like the idea of a hyd roller in your engine. I also like Crane products.... I suggest you go directly to Crane's Tech Line. They will ask all of the right questions and make a sound recommendation based on your car and engine combination. Go to Crane at http://www.cranecams.com and click on the Tech Support box in the upper right corner. They have a phone number and a fax number listed. If it is a big hassle calling from down under I will be glad to make the call for you if you supply the info....Tom

Thanks Tom, I shot them an email yesterday arvo when I posted on the CAC. They have responded with cam 119831. I filled out the email form they have and put all my specs in, told them I wanted to keep the Yella Terra Roller Rockers and the LT1 Vette springs. They didn't give any part no's for push rods or roller lifters. But when you click on their part number and it brings up the cam, to the right there are recommendations that work with the cam.

I need to find the specs on the LT1 springs, any idea?

I'll price it all up today (Friday), I have an RDO (rostered day off, three day weekend).

I'll get back to you,

Cheers

Tony

 

[JohnZ]

I need to find the specs on the LT1 springs, any idea? Cheers

Tony

All factory-cam small-block Chevys use EXACTLY the same valve spring - doesn't matter if it's Grandma's 307 Chevelle grocery-getter with hydraulic lifters or your solid-lifter LT-1 (which is quite a tribute to Chevy's cam designers) and they're still available from GM:

P/N 3911068
O.D. - 1.239"
Free Length - 2.027"
Wire Diameter - 0.177"
Closed Pressure - 80-85#
Open Pressure - 200# @ 1.25"

No shop worth their salt would tell you that a valve spring "should be OK for coil bind or retainer-to-guide clearance"; a good shop will CHECK those things, along with checking installed height and spring pressure at that height and at full-lift height BEFORE they install a valvetrain, especially with non-stock 1.6:1 rocker arms.

 

[AUSSIEVETTEMAN]

...I suspect your mechanic/shop is attempting to avoid responsibility. If shop both approved parts choices & installed the valve train ... At minimum shop should have measured spring height and coil bind (and retainer-to-seal or retainer-to guide) ... and compared that with lobe lift, rocker arm ratio & valve lift. Is there a record of this in the work order/receipts? If this cannot be confirmed, you still need to check for coil bind ... regardless which cam goes back into it. Mismatched components and/or inadequate spring-spacing may or may not be your problem, but NEEDS checking ... to help rule-in or rule-out failure cause(s) & diagnose what may have happened ... and to ensure proper setup for any new cam.

Yes the cam will come out the front of motor if radiator is first removed. If car has A/C, condenser must come out too. Intake manifold must also be removed to access lifters. Take the hood off too ... it'll make the job a lot easier.
JACK:gap

Thanks Jack, I reckon old 'ducka', how bout we call him that because he is ducking from his responsibility, can keep his 'brown box' cam. That is about as polite as I can get right now!

I thought as much with the cam, old Mark wouldn't steer me wrong. Yes, ours has an A/C condenser, I'll pull that too. The bonnet has a special place inside on the spare bed, complete with pillows. Now pulling that big block rad and lower Coolflex hose are painfull as there isn't much room down there.

Cheers

Tony

 

[AUSSIEVETTEMAN]

All factory-cam small-block Chevys use EXACTLY the same valve spring - doesn't matter if it's Grandma's 307 Chevelle grocery-getter with hydraulic lifters or your solid-lifter LT-1 (which is quite a tribute to Chevy's cam designers) and they're still available from GM:

P/N 3911068
O.D. - 1.239"
Free Length - 2.027"
Wire Diameter - 0.177"
Closed Pressure - 80-85#
Open Pressure - 200# @ 1.25"

No shop worth their salt would tell you that a valve spring "should be OK for coil bind or retainer-to-guide clearance"; a good shop will CHECK those things, along with checking installed height and spring pressure at that height and at full-lift height BEFORE they install a valvetrain, especially with non-stock 1.6:1 rocker arms.

Thanks John, Old Ducka did say that they checked the setup on assembly, but he gave me the specs (lift at valve inlet & exhaust) for the 1.5:1 rollers, not the 1.6's. His brother partners in the shop and he did the assembly.
I'll get some prices today on the roller cam setup, it is only 7:00am Friday morning, so all the speed shops are not open yet.

I'll keep you all posted.

Cheers

Tony

 

[AUSSIEVETTEMAN]

Guys,

I have been pricing today on the Crane setup.
Cam 119831 - $749.00 AU from Autobarn or $299.95 USD from Summit Racing
Lifters 11532 - $1015.00 AU from Autobarn or $415.95 USD from Summit Racing
Pushrods 11628 - $399.00 AU from Autobarn or $107.88 USD from Summit Racing (I am not sure if these would suit my setup with the 1.6 Yella Terras or not.)

Shipping from the US to OZ is around $105.00 USD, making the total $928.78 USD = $1255.00 AU compared to $2163.00 AU when buying at Autobarn. Shipping time is 5 to 10 days via USPS.

Do you guys recommend any other U.S suppliers I can purchase online?
All the other guys here in OZ only charge 2.5 to 3.5 the USD price.

Cheers

Tony

 

[Jack]

Just as there're roller rocker manufacturers right there in OZ (YT) ... there're cam grinders there too... maybe their prices would be better. Here's one:
CrowCams Pty/Ltd
16 Colbert Road Campbellfield
Victoria Australia 3061
Phone: (61)(03)93570469
Fax: (61)(03)93570001
www.crowcams.com.au

I've heard of Crow but no direct experience. I do have direct experience with an aussie-made timing set called "rollmaster" ... top quality!

Also, there're are at least two LT1 springs ... the newer model LT1 runs a spring similar to the old ... but about 1.273" OD ... P/N may be 10134358.
JACK:gap