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Renegade

Buccaneer

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124
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Gilbert, AZ.
Corvette
1982 Dark Claret Coupe - 383CI CFI
POST DELETED BY OWNER... I can see where these posts will end up going, so I deleted my posts/comments.
 

XLR8

Gone but not forgotten
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Mississippi Gulf Coast
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2003 AE Convertible, 1998 LCRM Convertible
POST DELETED BY OWNER... I can see where these posts will end up going, so I deleted my posts/comments.
If by that you mean folks will continue to ask for more than "he said he saw an increase of 30RWHP", I suspect you're correct.
 

Hib Halverson

Technical Writer for Internet & Print Media
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71 04 12 19
Once again, folks involved with the Renegade intake manifold appear unable to supply credible test data.

Owners of stock or near stock 82s or 84s with the L83 need to remember...buyer beware. It is my opinion that the Renegade may add some power at high rpm, but it's also my opinion that its effect on the rest of the torque curve is at least unknown and perhaps questionable.

That said, in looking at "Buccaneer's" sig line, the engine in his 82, which might have played a part in the Renegade's development, is highly modified. In addition to having some pretty serious valve train enhancements, the engine is a 383 rather than a 350 and it's got much better heads and higher compression. Typically, a displacement increase coupled with the those mods will "see" an intake manifold port volume increase much differently than will a smaller, less modified engine (ie: a stock or near stock L83). There's little question in my mind that a Renegade intake on a highly modified L83 would work pretty well and have a reasonably flat torque curve, but...

The most common "question" in this and other "Renegade Threads" has asked about how it works on a stock or near stock engine. When that question is posed, as best I can determine, little more than unsubstantiated boasting is been the response.

Time after time, those contributing to this and other "Renegade threads" have asked those advocating the Renegade ("nelson84", "Buccanneer" and a few others) for some test data. Time after time the vast majority of what's been posted in response seems to me to be the proverbial "smoke and mirrors". Granted, once or twice we've heard some round numbers describing increases in peak power, but the fact remains, we've never seen results from an A-B engine dyno or chassis dyno test which shows the before and after power and torque curves.

So, again, if you have a stock or mildly modifed 82 or 84 Crossfire motor, my advice is to take what you may "hear" about the Renegade with a grain of salt until someone posts some unbiased, comprehensive test data.

On the other hand, if you've got an 82 or 84 which has an engine which is significantly modifed and you want to retain the 2xTBI set-up, the Renegade might be a suitable alternative to the stock intake manifold.
 

LLC5

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Joined
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Messages
2,299
Location
Wa.
Corvette
98 black 6spd convert.
Buccanner's deleted posts about unsubstantiated data would make me not want to buy a "Renegade". Not exactly great marketing. ;)
 

Dad

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Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Messages
611
Location
West Unity OH
Corvette
15Gray/8sp 72Blk/Blk4Spd 64Red/Red/Wht4spd
It's not really an issue because you can't buy one to test. I had in mind to take an '84, 2 available one with 50K and the other 70K plus, both automatics and do a good update/tune. There is a dyno 45 miles from me that can run the before and after for me. Actually I think 3 tests would be in order, one as it is now, one when tuned to as near new as it can be with those miles, and then after the Renegade is installed. Even at the $500 plus price you still can't buy one to do a good comparison. Actually I think a comparison of what a good tune on a tired engine would do for it would be of just as much interest as the manifold change would be.

I'm still looking at C4's to add to my small collection with an automatic to help out the old knees when I need to cruise, and a C4 would fill this gap. Doing the test would be a great project and it should put all the questions to bed or at least start a new thread on how it was done all wrong......
 

nelson84

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 28, 2006
Messages
829
Location
Canada
Corvette
84 Z51 two tone bronze coupe 85 black on black
You can't get a renegade right away because there is such a line up to get one it will be awhile. Anything that will help a crossfire is worth a try.
Once again, folks involved with the Renegade intake manifold appear unable to supply credible test data.Owners of stock or near stock 82s or 84s with the L83 need to remember...buyer beware. It is my opinion that the Renegade may add some power at high rpm, but it's also my opinion that its effect on the rest of the torque curve is at least unknown and perhaps questionable.That said, in looking at "Buccaneer's" sig line, the engine in his 82, which might have played a part in the Renegade's development, is highly modified. In addition to having some pretty serious valve train enhancements, the engine is a 383 rather than a 350 and it's got much better heads and higher compression. Typically, a displacement increase coupled with the those mods will "see" an intake manifold port volume increase much differently than will a smaller, less modified engine (ie: a stock or near stock L83). There's little question in my mind that a Renegade intake on a highly modified L83 would work pretty well and have a reasonably flat torque curve, but...The most common "question" in this and other "Renegade Threads" has asked about how it works on a stock or near stock engine. When that question is posed, as best I can determine, little more than unsubstantiated boasting is been the response. Time after time, those contributing to this and other "Renegade threads" have asked those advocating the Renegade ("nelson84", "Buccanneer" and a few others) for some test data. Time after time the vast majority of what's been posted in response seems to me to be the proverbial "smoke and mirrors". Granted, once or twice we've heard some round numbers describing increases in peak power, but the fact remains, we've never seen results from an A-B engine dyno or chassis dyno test which shows the before and after power and torque curves.So, again, if you have a stock or mildly modifed 82 or 84 Crossfire motor, my advice is to take what you may "hear" about the Renegade with a grain of salt until someone posts some unbiased, comprehensive test data.On the other hand, if you've got an 82 or 84 which has an engine which is significantly modifed and you want to retain the 2xTBI set-up, the Renegade might be a suitable alternative to the stock intake manifold.
 

Dad

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Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Messages
611
Location
West Unity OH
Corvette
15Gray/8sp 72Blk/Blk4Spd 64Red/Red/Wht4spd
You can't get a renegade right away because there is such a line up to get one it will be awhile. Anything that will help a crossfire is worth a try.
Does small run quantities, changes, setup costs, and budget constraints have anything to do with the unavailability or is it just backlog?
 

nelson84

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Aug 28, 2006
Messages
829
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Canada
Corvette
84 Z51 two tone bronze coupe 85 black on black
Does small run quantities, changes, setup costs, and budget constraints have anything to do with the unavailability or is it just backlog?
How would I Know I am just a customer that has a renegade that now runs high 13's instead of high 14's. My 84 is faster now with the renegade that is all that matters to me.
 

catbert

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Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Messages
3,489
Location
Tobacco Road, NC
How would I Know I am just a customer that has a renegade that now runs high 13's instead of high 14's. My 84 is faster now with the renegade that is all that matters to me.

I don't know how you would know, but you have been the principle cheerleader for the Renegade on this and other forums. The Renegade may, or may not, be a great development, but you probably have no credibility on the subject because of your approach. If you want to help the Renegade gain acceptance, don't help them.
 

Dad

Well-known member
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Messages
611
Location
West Unity OH
Corvette
15Gray/8sp 72Blk/Blk4Spd 64Red/Red/Wht4spd
How would I Know I am just a customer that has a renegade that now runs high 13's instead of high 14's. My 84 is faster now with the renegade that is all that matters to me.

.

Sounds good, post up those before and after times slips.
 
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
719
Location
Amherst, NY
That is some jump in performance. I can only pull low 14s with my stock L98. Tire spin is my biggest enemy. I know a few LT1 owers who can't get below 14 seconds either.
 

nelson84

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Messages
829
Location
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84 Z51 two tone bronze coupe 85 black on black
That is some jump in performance. I can only pull low 14s with my stock L98. Tire spin is my biggest enemy. I know a few LT1 owers who can't get below 14 seconds either.
I also own an 85 TPI and my 84 with the renegade will pull away from it. I have switched drivers when racing the two vettes and same results. I prefer the crossfire over the TPI.
 

racerxz51

New member
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
4
Location
Clear Lake
Corvette
1984 Z51 Coupe
crossfire mods and the Renegade

I can only attest to my personal experience with the Crossfire but here goes. My 84 ran 15.5@88 dead stock. W/the cold air mod and K&N it went 15.4@89. 1.6 roller tips dropped it to 14.7@92 or 93. Fully porting the intake , including grinding off the EGR "hump" netted 14.3@96... TPI computer compatible grind and dart heads got it down to 13.8.
The Renegade offers an advantage over a ported CFI intake in that the runners are a more uniform and have the ability to flow more. A renegade intake on a otherwise stock CFI would probably only gain a couple hundered useable extra rpm and lose low end, at least add 1.6 rockers. i would be willing to bet that intake along with the Crane TPI cam, 1.6 rockers and headers would be a formidable combination.
I do not know the guys that developed the intake but as i built my car we conversed on the Crossfire Forum and I found them to be helpful and knowledgable. It looks to be well developed for a more heavily modded car, but for light mods i would suggest just porting the stock intake. Half a second for a little grinding isn't to be scoffed at. Just my 2 cents based on my experience.
 

UKVETTEHEAD

Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2016
Messages
21
Location
Guildford, Surrey UK
Corvette
C3 Collectors Edition
UKVETTEHEAD : Renegade Manifold

anybody try this intake yet?.....

Yes , I fitted one to my 82 collectors and the engine wouldn't run above 2000rpm. A rolling road session revealed that the fuel mixture was becoming progressively weaker as rpm increased. In fact, there was so much more air than fuel thanks to the better porting of the Renegade. To my knowledge there is no way to increase fuel flow from the Rochester TBIs without grief somewhere else. I refitted the original manifold back on and all is now good. I had previously fitted a Performer cam and Aluminium heads. The car is very sharp now especially low down and I will not look for any more power for the time being at least.
The renegade is not that well made, the plenum top is retained by countersunk screws which do not seal well, there is a cut out for the oil pressure sender unit brass fitting at the rear of the engine but on my manifold the cut out out was too small and I had to rework it in order to get the assembly to fit the block. The take offs for the heater connections are wrong and adaptors have to be used or specially made If there were to be a way to make the manifold work it work then it would be probably be worth doing I think. It is stored away for the time being but if anyone is interested in it let me know.
Lastly, does anyone know how the auxiliary cooling fan on this model gets it's engine temperature signal as I can find no additional sensor anywhere for it ? Thanks.
 

KANE

Moderator
Joined
Mar 2, 2002
Messages
3,244
Location
KY
Corvette
Dark Blue 1982 Trans Am(s): Polo Green 1995 MN6
Like any part, it might need some massaging here and there.

I have a Renegade and it's been a great intake aside form a few small details here and there.

Here are some of my thoughts...
- Plenum Lid: I purchased a huge sheet of gasket material and I made my own gasket for the plenum lid. I wasn't keen on using a bead of RTV.

- Oil pressure sending unit: I have a 45* fitting on mine and I shaped the brass with a Dremel to fit it.

- The temp sending unit for the dash is in the head if I recall.


Hope that helps!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

KANE

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Dark Blue 1982 Trans Am(s): Polo Green 1995 MN6
Your point about the mixture getting weaker and leaner is an important one.

The ECM and stock calibration are not going to meet the demands of a a larger cam and better heads. For one, the spark table for smog era iron heads is not the right one for aluminum heads.

The VE tables would also be wrong for a performer cam.

In other words, the OE calibration is not capable of supporting all the changes you've made. I had the same issue two years ago.

I stepped up to a programmable ECM in May 2014. It's the way to go if you modify a crossfire system.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

KANE

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3,244
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KY
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Dark Blue 1982 Trans Am(s): Polo Green 1995 MN6
So, again, if you have a stock or mildly modifed 82 or 84 Crossfire motor, my advice is to take what you may "hear" about the Renegade with a grain of salt until someone posts some unbiased, comprehensive test data.

On the other hand, if you've got an 82 or 84 which has an engine which is significantly modifed and you want to retain the 2xTBI set-up, the Renegade might be a suitable alternative to the stock intake manifold.

I'm going to build on Hib's post with some of my experiences.

First of all, I'm not a shop... or a professional tuner... or anything else. I am just a regular guy and cars are a passion and a pastime. I purchased a Renegade because it was the only intake on the market that might be up to the task of flowing more air than a ported OE intake.

To Hib's point, I think a lot of people are looking for the Renegade to be a magic pill for the '82 performance. As in, "just do this one small thing and you'll uncap 400hp". Well, it's not like that in real life. Engines are systems and only as good as the symphony of components that make it up as a unit.

I don't have dyno slips, but I do have real world, real-time datalogs that come from the car's ECM connected to my laptop that records everything from run time to AFR, MPH, sensor data, and point in time calibration table data.

Here's the three configurations I have recorded- and results:
Stock heads, stock FPR, Stock TBs, + Renegade, + Comp Cam .425" IN / .440" EX, 2.87 rear end = 0-60mph in 7.8 seconds
Stock heads, + 20psi VAFPR, +1.9 TBs, + Renegade, + Erson Cam .465" IN / .488" EX, 2.87 rear end= 0-60mph in 6 seconds
Stock heads, + 20psi VAFPR, +1.9 TBs, + Renegade, + Erson Cam .465" IN / .488" EX , + 3.73 rear end = 0-60mph in 5.2 seconds (best time)

In all of these tests, the ambient temperature outside was between 80-90 degrees, in the summer, and after at least 30 minutes of total run time in near identical conditions.

Through the 200+ data logs I have, I can see the Renegade do its job. The engine flows pretty consistent from 65 grams a second at 1,600rpm to a maximum of 197 grams a second at 5,600rpm- and see no loss in KPAs under WOT from 4,900-5,600rpm.

My cam and heads are good to my peak HP at 5,300rpm- so I don't have any data above 5,600rpm on engine behavior for KPAs or GMs Sec.

I think it does what I need it to do for my modified engine. To Hib's point... it does help a modified engine out and the intake is no longer the weakest link.

Attached is a graphic created with real time data from two previous logs- one as a baseline (.425/.440) and the other as a more current log (.465/.488)
 

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UKVETTEHEAD

Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2016
Messages
21
Location
Guildford, Surrey UK
Corvette
C3 Collectors Edition
UKVETTEHEAD : Renegade Manifold

Like any part, it might need some massaging here and there.

I have a Renegade and it's been a great intake aside form a few small details here and there.

Here are some of my thoughts...
- Plenum Lid: I purchased a huge sheet of gasket material and I made my own gasket for the plenum lid. I wasn't keen on using a bead of RTV.

- Oil pressure sending unit: I have a 45* fitting on mine and I shaped the brass with a Dremel to fit it.

- The temp sending unit for the dash is in the head if I recall.
Thanks for the above comments. making a gasket is the best way to go I think but did yours run OK afterwards ? Regarding the fan sensor, the only ones I have are for the Anti-Knock which is below the RH exhaust manifold, the oil temp sensor on the rear of the block near the oil filter and the water temp sensor for the gauge on the LH Clhead below the exhaust manifold. Not forgetting the temp sensor for the ECU which in my case is in a modified thermostat housing as my aluminium heads don't have a large enough tapped hole to accept the sensor. This leads me to think that the overtime signal is somehow generated in the ECU. The plot thickens as they say!!!

Hope that helps!!!
 

KANE

Moderator
Joined
Mar 2, 2002
Messages
3,244
Location
KY
Corvette
Dark Blue 1982 Trans Am(s): Polo Green 1995 MN6
Thanks for the above comments. making a gasket is the best way to go I think but did yours run OK afterwards ? Regarding the fan sensor, the only ones I have are for the Anti-Knock which is below the RH exhaust manifold, the oil temp sensor on the rear of the block near the oil filter and the water temp sensor for the gauge on the LH Clhead below the exhaust manifold. Not forgetting the temp sensor for the ECU which in my case is in a modified thermostat housing as my aluminium heads don't have a large enough tapped hole to accept the sensor. This leads me to think that the overtime signal is somehow generated in the ECU. The plot thickens as they say!!!

Here is a schematic of the pins used on the 84 ECM harness. I don't see a pin for the fan.

The knock sensor should be in the block... above the oil pan... on the passenger side in a water jacket fitting. I am assuming that's what you mean by below the exhaust manifold.
 

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UKVETTEHEAD

Member
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Oct 4, 2016
Messages
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Guildford, Surrey UK
Corvette
C3 Collectors Edition
Missing sensor

Here is a schematic of the pins used on the 84 ECM harness. I don't see a pin for the fan.

The knock sensor should be in the block... above the oil pan... on the passenger side in a water jacket fitting. I am assuming that's what you mean by below the exhaust manifold.

Now with better access and light, all is revealed and yes, you were correct, the knock sensor is in the block just forward of the starter motor and what I thought was the knock sensor is in fact the fan sensor. Thanks for your help.
Cheers
 

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