Speaking of the CF and their 'censorship', what's new with #29 anyway?

[vettebrett]

I just looked and there is no mention of this article anywhere in the C1 section of Corvette Forum. SO who is going to be the one to put it up and seee what happens??

 

[Jack Martin]

#29

Update on 29, PLEASE

 

[emccomas]

Info from National Motor Vehicle Title Information System

Back in late October I did a search through the NMVTIS for VIN E53F001029. Here is the exact results from NMVTIS.

Multi-State Vehicle History Report
Report for VIN: E53F001029
This data was originally accessed on 2009-10-22 06:52:40.141 EDT at which time it was current with the National Motor Vehicle Title Information System (NMVTIS)

Vehicle Brands
"Brands" define the status of a vehicle such as "theft, flood, salvage, rebuilt, kit" and are not lost when the vehicle travels from state to state.

One brand entry has been found for this vehicle.
* Not Actual
The odometer reading is known to be other than the true mileage for the vehicle.
Applied on: 04/18/2007 Applied by: Indiana


Florida Title Information
This record is the current State of Title within NMVTIS.
VIN: E53F001029 Title Issue Date: 10/06/2009 Odometer: Exempt

Indiana Historical Title Information
This is a historical record within NMVTIS.
VIN: E53F001029 Title Issue Date: 04/18/2007 Odometer: 000041200 Miles


FYI: Staring January 1st, 2010, all 50 states must start reporting vehicle info to the NMVTIS. Indiana and Florida already do this, which is how this issue came up in the first place. As I recall, currently 28 states are participating in NMVTIS, with 14 of them checking VIN numbers before issuing titles (Florida is one of them), and the other 14 just reporting VIN numbers to NMVTIS.

 

[Mike Terry]

So this means WHAT?

 

[emccomas]

Multi-State Vehicle History Report
More than one state has information about this vehicle

Report for VIN: E53F001029
Vin number being reported on by NVMTIS

This data was originally accessed on 2009-10-22 06:52:40.141 EDT at which time it was current with the National Motor Vehicle Title Information System (NMVTIS)
Date and time report was generated, and statement that the info being reported is current.

Vehicle Brands
"Brands" define the status of a vehicle such as "theft, flood, salvage, rebuilt, kit" and are not lost when the vehicle travels from state to state.
A description of the phrase "Vehicle Brands"

One brand entry has been found for this vehicle.
This vehicle has one "brand" on it.

* Not Actual
The odometer reading is known to be other than the true mileage for the vehicle.
The brand is that the mileage shown is not the actual mileage.

Applied on: 04/18/2007 Applied by: Indiana
The above brand was applied by the State of Indiana. So, the Indiana title contains the brand "Not Actual" in the mileage box.


Florida Title Information
Vehicle has a Florida title.

This record is the current State of Title within NMVTIS.
The Florida title is the current State of Title for this vehicle.

VIN: E53F001029 Title Issue Date: 10/06/2009 Odometer: Exempt
Florida title VIN, Title Issue Date, and odometer reading. Florida doesn't worry about the mileage reading for cars this old. They are "exempt".

Indiana Historical Title Information
Vehicle used to have an Indiana title (note the word "historical")

This is a historical record within NMVTIS.
This historical record is on file with NMVTIS.

VIN: E53F001029 Title Issue Date: 04/18/2007 Odometer: 000041200
Miles
Indiana title VIN, Title Issue Date, and odometer reading

So, what this tells us is that this vehicle was titled in Indiana, at which time the title was branded with the phrase "Not actual" for mileage. The vehicle is now titled in Florida. The Indiana title is a historical record, and the current State of Title is Florida.

Nothing more can be determined from this information.

 

[Mike Terry]

So what happes to the title in Indiana and the person who has it? Was it revoked by the State or surendered by the owner or what? If the car in Indiana is found to be a fake and is the person who filed for the # 29 from Indiana knows it is a fake and tryed to pass it off as the real deal can he be in trouble? I would think so. What do you think?

 

[Loren Smith]

Florida Title Information
This record is the current State of Title within NMVTIS.
VIN: E53F001029 Title Issue Date: 10/06/2009 Odometer: Exempt

Indiana Historical Title Information
This is a historical record within NMVTIS.
VIN: E53F001029 Title Issue Date: 04/18/2007 Odometer: 000041200 Miles


FYI: Staring January 1st, 2010, all 50 states must start reporting vehicle info to the NMVTIS. Indiana and Florida already do this, which is how this issue came up in the first place. As I recall, currently 28 states are participating in NMVTIS, with 14 of them checking VIN numbers before issuing titles (Florida is one of them), and the other 14 just reporting VIN numbers to NMVTIS.

Ken Kayser's article in Vette Vues says a Florida title was issued to the widow in 2002 for the Florida car. He listed a specific date (I don't have the article in front of me now), and said the titles will be displayed in the next article. So how was the Indiana car able to be titled in 2007, if Indiana and Florida already coordinate records, and why was the Florida car retitled again a couple of months ago? The earlier version of this story on the CF website was that the widow had trouble getting a title due to the Indiana title. I'm not trying to cast doubt on the Florida car; Ken's article looks well researched, along with a picture of the VIN tag and frame stamping, and a chronicle of an ownership history going way back. Ken states in the article that he will try to interview Roger for his side, will present pictures of the title, and draw a conclusion in the next article. Presumably, this will be after the experts look at the Florida car in Orlando next month?

 

[53 Blue Flame]

One observation

When the IN title was applied for in 2007, the mileage given by Roberts was 41,200.

The mileage reported to CAC by Roberts (2009) a few days after the real FL (real) 029 surfaced was 132,000.

90,000 miles in two years, along with a complete restoration during that time?


Evidently, in 2002, FL and IN did not communicate. They do now. That's how she found out that there was another 029 with title activity.

Since she could prove past verifiable title history, FL and IN must have decided that she had the title rights to the car.

 

[emccomas]

It would depend on when each state started reporting to the NMVTIS. This is a recent undertaking, funded primarily by the Department of Justice, and I think it really started being used in the 2007 / 2008 time.

One of the big reasons for this effort was the flood (literally) of Katrina vehicles that were showing up with "washed" titles.

I suspect that either Indiana or Florida were NOT reporting into the system prior to 2007 time frame.

Anyway, Indiana reported E53F001029 into the system in 2007. Someone in Florida came along in late 2009 (apparently the widow of the long time owner of the Florida car) to get a title in her name.

Florida checked NMVTIS, saw that the VIN was registered, and would not issue a Florida title because there was a current Indiana title.

Sometime after that, the Indiana title became "a historical record" (and I do not have any info on how that happened) which allowed Florida to issue the title that is now current for this vehicle.

Remember, we are not talking about vehicles here, just "paperwork". There can possibly be many vehicles out there with the same VIN number, but only one current title, once everyone starts using NMVTIS.

NMVTIS will help "resolve" these issues of multiple vehicles with the same VIN, but only if the info is reported by the appropriate states.

I do not know if the states are being required to input existing VIN info, or just new applications as they occur.

 

[Mike Terry]

It will be interesting to see the # 29 Corvette in FL. and the title at the NCRS Winter Event. Then it will even be more interesting to see if Ken gets to talk to or hear Rogers story as to how he got a title for his car, why he picked # 29 for his car, why his car is NO longer tilted with the state of Indiana and what he plans to do with it now. If and I do say (IF) he plans on selling the car that he had titled # 29, how will he sell it now and what number will he try to give it. Maybe all this information will come out in the next artical of Vette Vues. We will see.

 

[Tom Bryant]

One thing that keeps crossing my mind is if Roger's car or body is a real '53 and it is not #29 then what number is it?

 

[Loren Smith]

It would depend on when each state started reporting to the NMVTIS. This is a recent undertaking, funded primarily by the Department of Justice, and I think it really started being used in the 2007 / 2008 time.

One of the big reasons for this effort was the flood (literally) of Katrina vehicles that were showing up with "washed" titles.

I suspect that either Indiana or Florida were NOT reporting into the system prior to 2007 time frame.

Anyway, Indiana reported E53F001029 into the system in 2007. Someone in Florida came along in late 2009 (apparently the widow of the long time owner of the Florida car) to get a title in her name.

Florida checked NMVTIS, saw that the VIN was registered, and would not issue a Florida title because there was a current Indiana title.

Sometime after that, the Indiana title became "a historical record" (and I do not have any info on how that happened) which allowed Florida to issue the title that is now current for this vehicle.

Remember, we are not talking about vehicles here, just "paperwork". There can possibly be many vehicles out there with the same VIN number, but only one current title, once everyone starts using NMVTIS.

NMVTIS will help "resolve" these issues of multiple vehicles with the same VIN, but only if the info is reported by the appropriate states.

I do not know if the states are being required to input existing VIN info, or just new applications as they occur.

Another possibility is that the Florida #29 was never registered after title was issued in 2002, and it lapsed? If the owner took the 2002 title to the title clerk this year, upon inspecting the title, even though the computer record was purged, a new title could be issued?

 

[Mike Terry]

One thing that keeps crossing my mind is if Roger's car or body is a real '53 and it is not #29 then what number is it?

Not sure it is a real 53 Vette, could be a 54 with a fake 53 Vin Tag put on it. I was told that Roger admitted to masterdave on Corvette Forum that he made the Vin Tag # 29 for his car.That is why some people think that it would be a good idea to have someone who really knows 53 Vettes inspect the car. I don't think that Roger will let someone inspect the car. (If) he made a fake Vin Tag for the car then why would he let someone inspect the car and tell everyone that it is a fake then he would never be able to sell the car? I don't think he will ever be able to sell it for as much money as he thinks it is worth. I think Roger may or already has jumped into a hole and pulled the top of the hole in over his head not to be seen of heard of again for quite some time. We will see if Ken get his interview with Roger or not for the next artical in Vette Vues magazine.

 

[Tyler Townsley]

Another possibility is that the Florida #29 was never registered after title was issued in 2002, and it lapsed? If the owner took the 2002 title to the title clerk this year, upon inspecting the title, even though the computer record was purged, a new title could be issued?

Actually I think the car was initially titled in FL in 1999, retitled in her name in 2002 and the title redone this year. All titles have the same FL title number on the paperwork. It was this chain of title that enabled the IN title to be revolked.

Tyler

 

[53 Blue Flame]

Actually I think the car was initially titled in FL in 1999, retitled in her name in 2002 and the title redone this year. All titles have the same FL title number on the paperwork. It was this chain of title that enabled the IN title to be revolked.

Tyler

Yep. Verifiable past history. Only the FL car has it......along with the "original" vin tag and frame and body and .......

 

[emccomas]

Actually I think the car was initially titled in FL in 1999, retitled in her name in 2002 and the title redone this year. All titles have the same FL title number on the paperwork. It was this chain of title that enabled the IN title to be revolked.

Tyler

Tyler;

Do you know for sure that the Indiana title was revoked, or was it possibly voluntarily surrendered? Revocation of a auto title is a big deal, with some legal effort attached.

However, an "owner" voluntarily surrendering a title is a minor administrative issue. Happens all the time when vehicles are destroyed, as an example. Indiana law has specific provisions for the surrendering of titles.

 

[53 Blue Flame]

Ed, I had E53F001029 checked through the IN DMV's main office, next to the Statehouse. While it is unknown if it was revoked or surrendered, it is definitely no longer a valid IN title.

 

[Mike Terry]

I guess another question would be. Where did Roger get the car and where was the title when he bought it or got the car. If he had to make a fake Vin Tag for the car, where was the Vin Tag when he got the car. Why would you buy a car like a 53 Corvette (that I am sure is or was not cheap if it is real) that had NO Title, Vin Tag. So how would you know what number it is with out taking the body off and checking the frame? It is told that the FL. 53 Vette has # 29 frame under it as well as # 29 title. It looks to me like someone got caught with there fingers in the cookie jar. The Indiana car may be a very hard car to sell with everyone in the country knowing what is going on with the Indiana # 29 Corvette. You may be able to part it out?

 

[BigJimZ16]

I guess another question would be. Where did Roger get the car and where was the title when he bought it or got the car. If he had to make a fake Vin Tag for the car, where was the Vin Tag when he got the car. Why would you buy a car like a 53 Corvette (that I am sure is or was not cheap if it is real) that had NO Title, Vin Tag. So how would you know what number it is with out taking the body off and checking the frame? It is told that the FL. 53 Vette has # 29 frame under it as well as # 29 title. It looks to me like someone got caught with there fingers in the cookie jar. The Indiana car may be a very hard car to sell with everyone in the country knowing what is going on with the Indiana # 29 Corvette. You may be able to part it out?

Somebody must have done a search for the 29 car while the FLA car was unregistered and found the "open" number...

 

[emccomas]

Ed, I had E53F001029 checked through the IN DMV's main office, next to the Statehouse. While it is unknown if it was revoked or surrendered, it is definitely no longer a valid IN title.

I also did a search of that VIN through National Motor Vehicle Title Information System. Got the same info. The Indiana title is history (literally) and the Florida title is current.

My "suspicion" is that the Indiana title was voluntarily surrendered, which is a minor administrative issue. Revocation, on the other hand, is a big deal, and takes a while.

Personally, I thibk we should let this sleeping dog lie. The issue is resolved for the Florida owner, and I don't see any value in continuing to beat this horse.

I, for one, really prefer that the government (any government) not get too involved in old car issues. That is a can of worms I don't think most of us want knocked over.