Starting problem with my '87.

[Nige]

Can anyone help with this... As I live in the UK, getting proper advice is a rarity (and expensive!).

I've been having problems with starting my 'Vette. At first I thought it was some sort of electrical propblem but, having had three different "auto electricians" look at it, they all told me it was my starter motor. To be more precise, the starter solenoid, which I have just changed today - and it has made no difference whatsoever!

The symtoms are as follows: Put key in and switch on - all lights come up as normal. Turn to start - nothing! No clicks. No whirring. No dimming lights. Nothing!! It is as though the security system has cut in and is preventing the car from starting, except that the security light is not lit and I have been told by "those that know" that this would light if it was the VATS playing up. I have also recently had the ignition lock barrel changed - I sent my spare key to the USA to ensure the new one was of the right code, so it cannot be that.

Has anyone had a similar problem and, if so, how did you cure it?

Many thanks in anticipation of your help.

A (very) frustrated 'Vette owner!

 

[Chick]

I believe it is the 'ignition lock cylinder' causing your problem.

There are 2 little 'white wires' than have a tendency to break, they are located right AT the ignition lock cylinder...The lock cylinder has to be replaced and you need at least 1 new key.

Here we use ....a VATTS Interrogator to test the lock cylinder system. It's a little black box that I would plug in at the base of the steering column and bypass the lock cylinder and then start the car.

Do they have this in the UK... ask them. Call a dealer there.

 

[Nige]

Ignition lock

Hi Chick,

Thanks for the reply.

That is one of the lines I'm going to go down. I'm going to contact the company that replaced the cylinder for me and get them to check over their work. Unfortunately, I doubt that they have a VATS Interogator and so will just have to check that it has been installed OK and the wires haven't been broken.

I have checked that it is plugged in OK at the base of the steering column but have no other way of checking the steering wheel end! Is there any other way, other than using an interogator? I suppose bridging the connector with the correct resistor would have the same effect?

Thanx again.

Nige.

 

[Chick]

Yes if you knew what the resistance of the key was...

Nige....How long ago was it replaced?

 

[Nige]

It was replaced about three weeks ago (and cost me approx $250.00 to get done!!).

I have a listing of Key Code resistances and I know what code mine takes - so that might be a possibility.

To give you an idea of how much things cost here...

I brought four new Falkens over the 'net. Had them delivered to a shipping address in the States and then fowarded to me in the UK. I then had all four wheels fitted, balanced and the tracking re-checked - all for what ONE TIRE would have cost me here!

 

[Ken]

... (the security light) would light if it was the VATS playing up.

Untrue! :nono

• The light is simply to remind one to set one's security system when leaving the car.

First, you neglected to mention if you have any codes showing.

I have been through this very same thing - many times, as have many others, yet I never did figure my problem out; so much has changed that it (the security system) is no longer an issue.

There are several things associated with the UTD/VATS modules in addition to the resistor pellet key. The UTD (Universal Theft Deterent?) module controls the operation of the alarm portion of the system. The VATS (Vehicle Anti-Theft System) uses a special key, as you know, which allows the VATS module to:

1. Signal the ECM (Electronic Control Module).
2. Close the starter circuit.

The VATS system operates to prevent starting (cranking) of the vehicle and fuel delivery to the engine. The VATS operate independently of the UTD alarm system.

In addition to the key, you should check your fuses, the VATS Decoder Module, the starter enable relay, and lastly, the ECM. One other thing you forgot to mention was whether the vehicle is a manual or an automatic. You may want to check your start safety switches for the gear selector or clutch pedal.

 

[Nige]

Thanks Ken.

I don't think it's a VATS problem as no error codes are apparent. I've also got to check Neutral/Park switches etc.

Time to start again and work through every possible combination!

See you sometime next year!!!

Nige.

PS. It's an Auto.

 

[vigman]

Nige

Do a search on my post's for VATS...

Ton of good info in there!

Vig~

 

[vigman]

Some more info ( c-4 VATS)

( VATS 101)

The vats bypass cha-cha

Running down the shaft are the infamous VATS key sence wires...in my experience when the wheel comes apart that get pulled & tugged... and IF it was starting to wear out this dosent help the process.

A quick way to check is the following get out your handy dandy OHM meter and measure the pellet on the key, write down the number ( eg 11.8k ) this is the value of the resistor to enable the VATS.

Now tear out the hush panel under the drivers side, and find a small 2 pin connector ( with 2 white wires and orange sleeving) These are the wires from the key switch that contact the pellet. Disconnect the connector and measure the resistance with the key out ( should be OPEN ) and then put the key in
and you SHOULD get the exact same reading as when you measured from the key directly. Jiggle the key around and see if is intermittant.

If it is, there are 2 ways to approach the problem.

1) Go to Radio Shack and get a resistor close to the same value ( +/- 10 %) or do the math and get a few to put in series to get the number closer to the resistive value on the key. Clip lead the new resistor value on the other side ( MALE ) portion of the connector to see if it starts. If that works
solder it in nicely to that connector, and DO NOT plug the steering coluum connector back in! This defeats the VATS system so option #2

2) Have the key switch assy replaced ( Expensive )
You'll have VATS restored but... any theif who wants your car knows about the VATS anyway so it does provide a slim margin of anti theft. I myself
have put a secret switch over by the vats and is shorts the key sence line out, & breaks the fuel pump line.

MY .02 cents
Vig~

 

[vigman]

And this

http://www.asttraining.com/Files/vats1.pdf

Vig~

 

[vigman]

And this

http://corvetteactioncenter.com/for...=13681&perpage=15&highlight=VATS&pagenumber=1

Hope this helps!

Vig~

 

[Joel]

Hi Nige, this is Joel. I just fininshed fixing my 87 Corvette starter problem. It sounds like I was having the same problem you are. I replaced the Neutral Safety Switch, the Ignition Lock Cylinder and removed the starter took it to the parts store and had it checked. None of these were causing the problem. I read the manual again and found there was a Ignition Starter Switch between the Ignition Lock Cylinder and the Neutral Safety Switch. I went to the parts store again and bought one for $10.00. The part number is LS309. It was no fun replacing this but when I was fininshed my Vett started right up. You have to remove the lower dash and front of the instrument panel. After you do this look under the dash and you will see a cross member holding up the Steering Column. THere are two bolts holding this cross member in place. Remove the bolts and drop the cross member. This will allow you to pull the Steering Colum down. If your setting in the drivers set you will be able to look down the colum and see the switch bolted to the top of the steering Column. When you buy the part make sure you get the directions in the box. There is an adjustment you have be carefull with. Once you read the directions you'll understand what I'm talking about.

 

[Nige]

Thanks to everyone who's posting replies.

My journey so far...

Had new ignition barrel fitted + two new keys supplied.

Checked the starter motor and replaced solenoid.

Did the "Ohmeter shuffle" to check key resistance OK and working when inserted in ignition lock.

Bridged 2-pin connection with relevant resistor to further check not a key problem.

Checked out Park/Neutral switch - all looks OK (to be fair, I've never known one of these to go - but there's always a first time!).

Checked all fuses.

Didn't know about Ignition Starter Switch - thanks for the info Joel. If all else fails, I'll try that as well!

Vigman, I haven't had a chance to check the Starter Circuit Relay (behind DIC panel) yet. I hope it's not that - I really don't fancy stripping out the dash etc!

Ken, where do I find the VATS Decoder Module and is the "starter enable relay" the same as Vigman mentioned?

Thanks again for all the help guys. I'll let you know how I get on.

Nige.

 

[Ken]

I know, they're kinda hard to see...

The UTD/VATS modules:

From the book:

_ken

 

[Ken]

Found some more pictures...

My UTD was not attached, or more appropriately - re-attached, from a previous modification, hence the duct tape. :eyerole

_ken

 

[Nige]

Thanks Ken.

Joel is also sending me the part he mentioned in his post (many thanx Joel!).

I doubt that I will get to look at it again until this weekend - work getting in the way again!

Will let you know how I get on.

Nige.

 

[Nige]

Success!

Just to thank everyone for all their help and advice - and to Joel for "above and beyond".

The 'Vette is back on the road and running better than ever before!!

Many thanx to all!!

Nige.

 

[Ken]

Glad to hear the good news.

_ken

 

[rockytoptilidie]

So it was the ignition starter switch? I'm having the same problem!!!

 

[dr3283]

Intermittent Start Problem

I'm new at this forum so please bear with me.....but HELP!!!!

I've read every post on this problem but my problem seems to have a new wrinkle on my 87 ragtop automatic in that the SECURITY light doesn't follow what GM says it should do. This just started with the intermittent starting condition. With the doors closed, ignition off, and doors unlocked, the SECURITY light on the DIC (Driver Information Center) flashes constantly.....eventually draining the battery. GM says it is supposed to flash only 8-10 seconds and then go off. If I enable the system (lock the doors), the SECURITY light comes on solid and never goes off.....until it drains the battery. GM says it should go off in 3-8 seconds. The only time the light goes off and stays off is when the key is actually in the start or run position.

On top of this, it failed to start for approx two weeks......trying new matching VAT key cut by GM didn't work so I tried to pull the VATS fuse from the panel with no effect. Next I tried the Theft Deterrent System fuse in the dash behind the DIC.....and it fired right up. This could be "a" solution but now I have no SECURITY light at all. Is this a problem anyone else has seen???????
Thanks.