Tried it again and still not fixed!!

[motorman]

well, the saga continues.
you may remember about a week or so ago I posted about how I took my '65 in to my mechanic to get the distributor rebuilt, the timing set, and basically just get her running correctly.
After getting all the parts from LICS and having him rebuild the distributor and doing everything he wasn't able to get the timing set correctly and told me the balancer slipped (this was already the 3rd time he had the car in to try to get it running right) and I needed to get a new balancer and he would install that and that should fix it. Since I now had spent almost $800 in parts and his labor over the 3 shop visits I lost confidence in him and got recommendations for another mechanic in my area. Everyone from my Vette club ALL recommended I see another guy not too far away. He loves working on these old cars and is an ex-racer. I figured OK, i'll give this guy a shot.
Dropped the car off Mon. night and picked it up this afternoon. He SUPPOSEABLY checked the distributor, the timing, the advance, and confirmed proper TDC. Also adjusted the valves - there were too tight.He said the bolt on the balancer was also loose.
He replaced the points in the distributor which just been replaced 2 weeks ago, replaced the sparkplugs because he said they were the wrong type.
After all this the car runs worst now than it did before I dropped it off to him!!!! It still breaks up over 5500RPM and when I let off the gas the idle now won't fall below 1100rpm most of the time. When it does drop below 1100rpm at idle it takes a long time for it to do it than it feels like it want to stall out and I have to keep goosing the gas to keep her running.
I'm really getting p***ed off now!!! why can't I find someone to get this car to run right. I'm now into this issue for approx $1100 and it's getting worst instead of better.
Sorry, I know i'm venting here but i'm too the point of such frustration that I just don't know what to do.
last time I posted about this everyone gave me great advice on how to fix it but the problem is I can't do the work myself.
I've wanted this car since I was 12 and it was a lifelong dream to finally get her but even with the short time I've had her I've had such bad luck I'm almost ready to throw in the towel. I know the idiot backing into me requiring repairs was just an accident and the paint blistering on the hood at a show was a novice mistake, but if I can't find somebody who can do what should be a relatively basic repair job, what am I to do if the car ever needed a major motor repair?
Is it really too much to ask to correctly set up a distributor, get the timing set, and set the carb to make the car run smooth? (sorry - venting here again!) ad
I think I need to buy a punching bag for days like this

if you can not do your own work on these older corvettes it is very hard to find someone that knows what to do as the people that worked on these cars when they were new have died or retired. these new guys are parts changers not someone who can diagnose what the problem could be. this is why you better have lots of money because the guys that know what they are doing are few and far between and are not cheap.

 

[BarryK]

If the Vette is a matching number car then more likely than not it would have been rebuilt with the correct 365 parts. However you have already had to replace some critical parts related to the engine that should not have been necessary if the work was performed correctly during it`s rebuild and restoration. The valves and rocker arms would be the same for both hydraulic and solid cams making anyone servicing the engine to be able to rely only by what should be correct. I wish I was there for you as you have spent several dollars on parts that may or may not have been necessary. I would recommend you find a good drag racer in your area that has a fast Vette or Camaro and not a bench or cruise racer. Most of them would enjoy helping you straighten it out. I don`t think it`s that serious of a problem.

believe me, I wish you wre here also as i have no doubt that at least some of the new parts i bought really didn't need to be replaced.
This last mechanic IS an ex-dragracer. Hell, his shop is covered in prints of all his old cars (chevy's) at the strips.

 

[BarryK]

Buy an MSD and forget about it. Or go to Auto Zone or Advanced and buy a rebuilt electronic distributer for about $150 including the coil.

I have a billet dist. with the mechanical tach drive. The entire setup was less than $500 and the improvement was HUGE!

My $.02

I considered going the electronic route before but there is really no reason that i see why a competent mechanic shouldn't be able to get the car running properly using standard stock parts. Hell, these cars ran for years properly before the electronic ignition systems were really available.
Plus, I'm trying to keep the car as stock as possible

 

[BarryK]

Barry-
I feel for you having to go through this ; but in all fairness , the best mechanics can't walk on water.
You assume fixing the timing and idle should be a simple fix , when normally it is ;but obviously your circumstances are not.
I can add another item that limits your engine from running over 5500 rpm also. Valve spring pressure. When I bought my L-79 '66 , it would not rpm over 5000. The owner said he had the engine GONE THROUGH about 5000 miles ago. He did ,but the seat pressure was 65 lbs. I had to shim the springs to 115 lbs to cleanly run the engine to 6000.
To check lifters, without pulling the intake manifold; you must push down on the lifter with the pushrod. A hyd. lifter will depress about .075 ,which can be felt ; and a solid will not depress at all.
If I were in your shoes , double check with your mechanic. Make sure he knows which type of camshaft is really in your engine. Do not assume anything. You could have bought a car that someone changed the cam to a hyd.
Someone else already said , the sbc is a basic easy engine to tune; and it is ;but tuning correctly can only be accomplished if the major componets are correct also.

Don't give up yet! You could have bought a BASS BOAT that won't start.

I understand what you are saying, but without tearing the whole engine apart how can we be really sure that the correct cam is in there?

 

[BarryK]

I just read all of the original post and didn't realize the rpm limit. With a stock or even slightly modified motor I doubt you'll see much over 5000 rpm. There are just too many variables involved. I personally don't like point systems and still think electronic is the way to go but NO ignition alone system is going to give you 6000 rpm. Breaking up at 5500 is probably valve float or carb limitations or intake or heads or cam. See what I mean

with the 327/365 solid lifter engine, yellow line is at 6000 and redline is at 6500.
Almost every person I spoke to said these motors should easily go to the redline with no problem and many mentioned that going beyond that is usually not an issue either at least to 7000.
Don't get me wrong, i DO NOT push the car anywhere near that hard when driving her but i do want to at least now it's running correct and with it breaking up at 5000 or 5500 it NOT correct.

 

[BarryK]

Barry,
From my experience and the NCRS web site, some items to consider if the ignition is breaking up above 5500 rpm:
- are the proper points being used? What is needed is points with 28 to 32 ounces of breaker arm tension to prevent point float. I don't know the NAPA part number off the top of my head, but they do make sets with this tension. You might want to search the technical discussion board of the NCRS web site for the actual part numbers. I know this topic has arisen previously.
- what end play did the mechanic set up in the rebuilt distributor. From every thing I ever did, you need to set it up between .002 to .007 to assure it will work above 5500 rpm. I know some manuals call for a lot more play, but the above works best on the SHP engines.
- This may be elementary, but did the mechanic make sure the dimple on the distributor driveshaft lined up with the tip of the rotor. If not, the engine will run, but not very well and usually not at all until the distributor is moved a tooth or so away from where it should be.

The ex-pat Delaware native,
Mike

Mike

regarding the points, when the last mechanic rebuilt the distributor a few weeks ago he put in new points. When this new mechanic looked at the car the other day he said he didn't like the points that were in it and he replaced them with others but I couldn't tell you what type or anything.
I also couldn't tell you how everything is "set" in regards to the numbers you gave me.

 

[BarryK]

if you can not do your own work on these older corvettes it is very hard to find someone that knows what to do as the people that worked on these cars when they were new have died or retired. these new guys are parts changers not someone who can diagnose what the problem could be. this is why you better have lots of money because the guys that know what they are doing are few and far between and are not cheap.

Belive me, I'm FAR from rich and having extra money to just throw away but if I could find someone competent I don't mind paying them IF they could get the job done! My problem seems to be I'm throwing away money on mechanics that I get recommendations on as good people to take these older cars too and even they can't seems to do the job right. That's what really burns me up! ad

 

[allcoupedup]

Barry,

I feel for you! All you want to do is drive the car... and you can't. The $$$ down the drain just adds insult to injury.

Here's what I suggest... walk away from the car for a week. In that time create a spreadsheet of all the subsystems and components of the engine. When you've relaxed a bit and start feeling GOOD about the car again, take steps to check off those items one by one. DO NOT take peoples word for their work.... if someone says "the balancer is OK" then ask him how he arrived at that conclusion. 2nd guess everything.


Here's a list of some things to check - the advice you've been given is filled with possibilities. It will be up to you to check and record these items.

1. Balancer matches timing tab
2. Solid or hydraulic
3. High tension points
4. Functioning coil
5. Functioning secondaries (when do they open)
6. Valves adjusted properly
7. Wiped cam lobes (measure lift - look for consistency)
8. Compression check
9. Spark plug condition and gap
10. Spark plug wires
11. Spark scatter (consistent dwell)
12. Vacuum advance
13. Mechanical advance
14. Idle vacuum


The shotgun approach will waste time $$$. Take a step by step approach and narrow the list down at each step. ISOLATE the problem and FIND the problem.

I hate to suggest this but I did the following.... I had a "mystery" 327 in my '65. Ran fine .. plenty 'o torque,good mileage, didn't burn oil but was dead above 4000RPM - no break ups just out of gas. I could never get it to idle well below 700RPM. This was a hydraulic lifter motor ... the engine code suggested 327/275. I probably could have put another 20K miles on the engine but I could not live with the unknown any longer. IN other words I needed to know what I had. I didn't know if I had a std bore or a .060 over bore.

I'm glad I tore it down because I found a cracked bellhousing, knurled valve guides, warped heads, and some worn bearings. The real BONUS is that I know EXACTLY what I have and how to tune it and how to DRIVE it. I know the exact compression ratio and Built it with performance rods and know that I can run it up to 6500 without sqinting one eye waiting for a rod to fly out.

If you REALLY want to figure out what's going on you can pop off the heads, figure out which pistons you have, CC'd the heads, degree the cam, check the lifters, etc...

Good luck Barry.
Brian

 

[ctjackster]

Hey Barry - As I sit here along the beach in Sconset / Nantucket on my annual family vacation, I feel for you HUGE since I too know so very well how frustrating it is to get your dream car and then have it run wrong and even worse than wrong AFTER paying those who claim to know what they are doing to fix it. And then you have 'net kooks like me trying to tell you how to fix all of your troubles.

I really wish you would take a deep breath and dive into this stuff yourself - I know it can be daunting but look what the locals have been doing for you . . . and you have some serious expert collective knowledge here that can pick you back up when you fall down or get confused. Car breaking up above 5500 ? most folks with 40 year old cars kinda get a little nervous winding these old NM-ing engines up that far, yes I know you have the SHP L76 and yes it does come alive in the higher revs . . . .

I know you have supposedly addressed the distributor side of the possibilities, but not having done the work or specified the parts - I just can't confidently rule out the possibility that the dist area is not still the source of issue - for instance, were SHP-spec points used? breaking up at higher rpms is actually a symptom of points floating a bit, which the special SHP points address with higher tension. And the proper vac can must be used. Are the plug wires even indexed on the cap properly? If not, a sure sign the dist is installed wrong. Timing your L76 is tricky, since the engine will sputter and die if the idle is set at spec and the vac can is then disconnected, as it must be for this job - and bumping up the idle will bring in the centrifugal advance. Timing must be set with a dial back light, with vac can discoonected and the revs up near 3000, at 38 or so degrees.

leaving the dist aside, Brian is right, taking a scattershot approach without being logical is going to cost you, and this I too know from bad experience. worst thing you can do is fix more than one thing at a time before testing out the work. guilty I am again of this too.

funny thing is, I cannot help but think in my gut that you have a fuel delivery (carb, fuel pump, etc.) problem compounded by a poorly-timed dist problem. Just my guess.

 

[BarryK]

Barry,

I feel for you! All you want to do is drive the car... and you can't. The $$$ down the drain just adds insult to injury.

Here's what I suggest... walk away from the car for a week. In that time create a spreadsheet of all the subsystems and components of the engine. When you've relaxed a bit and start feeling GOOD about the car again, take steps to check off those items one by one. DO NOT take peoples word for their work.... if someone says "the balancer is OK" then ask him how he arrived at that conclusion. 2nd guess everything.


Here's a list of some things to check - the advice you've been given is filled with possibilities. It will be up to you to check and record these items.

1. Balancer matches timing tab
2. Solid or hydraulic
3. High tension points
4. Functioning coil
5. Functioning secondaries (when do they open)
6. Valves adjusted properly
7. Wiped cam lobes (measure lift - look for consistency)
8. Compression check
9. Spark plug condition and gap
10. Spark plug wires
11. Spark scatter (consistent dwell)
12. Vacuum advance
13. Mechanical advance
14. Idle vacuum


The shotgun approach will waste time $$$. Take a step by step approach and narrow the list down at each step. ISOLATE the problem and FIND the problem.

I hate to suggest this but I did the following.... I had a "mystery" 327 in my '65. Ran fine .. plenty 'o torque,good mileage, didn't burn oil but was dead above 4000RPM - no break ups just out of gas. I could never get it to idle well below 700RPM. This was a hydraulic lifter motor ... the engine code suggested 327/275. I probably could have put another 20K miles on the engine but I could not live with the unknown any longer. IN other words I needed to know what I had. I didn't know if I had a std bore or a .060 over bore.

I'm glad I tore it down because I found a cracked bellhousing, knurled valve guides, warped heads, and some worn bearings. The real BONUS is that I know EXACTLY what I have and how to tune it and how to DRIVE it. I know the exact compression ratio and Built it with performance rods and know that I can run it up to 6500 without sqinting one eye waiting for a rod to fly out.

If you REALLY want to figure out what's going on you can pop off the heads, figure out which pistons you have, CC'd the heads, degree the cam, check the lifters, etc...

Good luck Barry.
Brian

Hi Allcoupedup

Thanks, thats really great advice. You are right, I need to step back from things at the moment and get rid of the frustration level I currently have.

Your list is also a great one and I'll use that along with a few other items that I know were mentioned to me during all of this between both mechanics. It should be be easier to isolate and find the problem instead of all this trial and error BS that everyone seems to be going thru on the car.

As for what you had to do with your motor and do a complete or even partial teardown right now is not feasible. I sure can't do that work myself and I definately don't have the funds right now to pay someone for that amount of work ( although for what I've spent so far it probably could have been done!). Unfortunatly, being laid off work is really limiting my funds which is adding more insult to injury on the money I've already seen wasted in this.


Barry

 

[Subfixer]

Barry, Give Lars a hollar to see if he can help. He's usually on the "other" forum and has done wonders for a bunch of guys. He's about the best tuner out there. There was a post here a few days back on his efforts in Canada.

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50987

 

[BarryK]

Hey Barry - As I sit here along the beach in Sconset / Nantucket on my annual family vacation, I feel for you HUGE since I too know so very well how frustrating it is to get your dream car and then have it run wrong and even worse than wrong AFTER paying those who claim to know what they are doing to fix it. And then you have 'net kooks like me trying to tell you how to fix all of your troubles.

I really wish you would take a deep breath and dive into this stuff yourself - I know it can be daunting but look what the locals have been doing for you . . . and you have some serious expert collective knowledge here that can pick you back up when you fall down or get confused. Car breaking up above 5500 ? most folks with 40 year old cars kinda get a little nervous winding these old NM-ing engines up that far, yes I know you have the SHP L76 and yes it does come alive in the higher revs . . . .

I know you have supposedly addressed the distributor side of the possibilities, but not having done the work or specified the parts - I just can't confidently rule out the possibility that the dist area is not still the source of issue - for instance, were SHP-spec points used? breaking up at higher rpms is actually a symptom of points floating a bit, which the special SHP points address with higher tension. And the proper vac can must be used. Are the plug wires even indexed on the cap properly? If not, a sure sign the dist is installed wrong. Timing your L76 is tricky, since the engine will sputter and die if the idle is set at spec and the vac can is then disconnected, as it must be for this job - and bumping up the idle will bring in the centrifugal advance. Timing must be set with a dial back light, with vac can discoonected and the revs up near 3000, at 38 or so degrees.

leaving the dist aside, Brian is right, taking a scattershot approach without being logical is going to cost you, and this I too know from bad experience. worst thing you can do is fix more than one thing at a time before testing out the work. guilty I am again of this too.

funny thing is, I cannot help but think in my gut that you have a fuel delivery (carb, fuel pump, etc.) problem compounded by a poorly-timed dist problem. Just my guess.

Hi CT

I'm to the point of just forgetting all about any of these so-called expert mechanics around here, purchasing some basic equipment like a timing light, dwell meter, whatever, and learning how to do this myself with the help of everyone on here. one thing I can say on this forumn is that everyone is VERY generous with their knowledge and there sure seem to be some real experts here.
I even had an email yesterday from a CAC memeber who gave me his phone number, said I could call him and he thinks he can talk me through this with these basic tools. ( I still need to find a piston stop - none of the local parts shops seem to carry them so I just got the number of the local snap-on tools guy).
With all this help from memebers on here I think it may be possible for even a complete idiot like me to dive in and actually try the work myself. hell, i'm beginning to think I can't make it any worst than what I've already paid others to do.

As for the distributor, when it was rebuilt we ordered all the parts from LICS and ordered the ones specific for the L76 (when there was a difference in parts to other motors). The new points were installed a few weeks previous and even JohnZ feels they may have been the wrong ones. This last mechanic the other day also said they looked wrong and repalced them again but i'm not sure with what type. The vacumn canister is also new from when we ordered all the parts from LICS.

From what everyone here tells me plus what I just heard from an engine rebuilding place I just spoke to on the phone, the low end and idle problem seems to be probably related to vacumn and/or carb and timing issues. The high rev problem may be a fuel delivery issue. This has been mentioned a few times now, and the engine rebuilder guy also suggested it could be a symptom of my valve springs needing replacement. In either case, it looks as if I'm dealing with multiple problems all happeninng at the same time - maybe that's why it's being so difficult to pin down and fix.
regarding you comment on revving at higher rpm's on these older motors. I really don't run my car that hard at all! Actually, I drive my BABY like an old woman most of the time and really try to take it easy on her although a good punch on the gas to feel that push-you-back-in-the-seat-feeling mood does hit me at times. Even though I don't run her hard all the way up to 6500 or so it should easily rev up there and want her to just because that way she is running properly. I figure if it's not making it up there it's because something is wrong, it's not because I NEED to have it run that hard.

BTW, I'm jealous. here I am worried and concerned about my car and you are relaxing having a great time on the beach!

 

[Dave65]

Hi CT

I'm to the point of just forgetting all about any of these so-called expert mechanics around here, purchasing some basic equipment like a timing light, dwell meter, whatever, and learning how to do this myself with the help of everyone on here. one thing I can say on this forumn is that everyone is VERY generous with their knowledge and there sure seem to be some real experts here.

Probably a good idea. You may make a few mistakes at first but you will learn and once you know how to do these things you will likely move onto others. It really is not that hard.

Good luck.

Dave

 

[BarryK]

Probably a good idea. You may make a few mistakes at first but you will learn and once you know how to do these things you will likely move onto others. It really is not that hard.

Good luck.

Dave

Oh, I'm SURE I'll make plenty of mistakes! LOL
I just hope I don't screw things up bad enough that the car wouldn't run at all after I touch it
:eyerole

 

[Ken Anderson]

Barry,
I saw this before and recommended you get a new mechanic the first tme. You apparently found 2 idiots. I see by your posts that you're not a DIY guy on this project, but that's no shame. My recommendation is find a mechanic who takes charge cards, so at least you have the chargeback option, and pass this experience off to a harsh life lesson.
What you're asking these guys to do is basic knowledge for most mechanics, not rocket science. Try again, but it sounds like you could have a bent valve/broken valve sping/or bent push rod from all those attempts to rev it up to 6500. Also make sure your tach is accurate, as you may have overevved it. Good luck in your search!
Ken

 

[BarryK]

Barry, Give Lars a hollar to see if he can help. He's usually on the "other" forum and has done wonders for a bunch of guys. He's about the best tuner out there. There was a post here a few days back on his efforts in Canada.

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50987

Hi Sub

I'll try that also, thanks!

 

[BarryK]

Barry,
I saw this before and recommended you get a new mechanic the first tme. You apparently found 2 idiots. I see by your posts that you're not a DIY guy on this project, but that's no shame. My recommendation is find a mechanic who takes charge cards, so at least you have the chargeback option, and pass this experience off to a harsh life lesson.
What you're asking these guys to do is basic knowledge for most mechanics, not rocket science. Try again, but it sounds like you could have a bent valve/broken valve sping/or bent push rod from all those attempts to rev it up to 6500. Also make sure your tach is accurate, as you may have overevved it. Good luck in your search!
Ken

Hi Ken
gee, from what you say could be wrong from all the attempting at fixing it you are a fountain of good news today!

never thought about the tach being off - if it is and it's reading low the high end might be fine and i just don't realize it. Could it be off by 1000rpm's or so? That sounds like a lot. Even 500rpm's sounds like a lot to be off.

 

[67ragtop]

BarryK

The piston stop your looking for can be found here:

http://www.shopcranecams.com/cranecams/****toptopde.html

My 67 sb used the 14mm size.

Don't give up, there's nothing like driving an old mid-year around town!

 

[Ken Anderson]

Barry,
Your Tach could easily be off 1000 to 1500 RPM at the upper scale & only off 500-600 at idle. Easy to check with a dwell/tach meter. By the way, any mechanic, that knows his stuff, should be able to tell which cam you have without taking the engine apart.
Ken

 

[BarryK]

BarryK

The piston stop your looking for can be found here:

http://www.shopcranecams.com/cranecams/****toptopde.html

My 67 sb used the 14mm size.

Don't give up, there's nothing like driving an old mid-year around town!

thanks for the link 67!

none of the local places around here carry it. I was going to try to get hold of the local snap-on tool guy but he is probably pretty expensive.