Tried it again and still not fixed!!

[BarryK]

Barry,
Your Tach could easily be off 1000 to 1500 RPM at the upper scale & only off 500-600 at idle. Easy to check with a dwell/tach meter. By the way, any mechanic, that knows his stuff, should be able to tell which cam you have without taking the engine apart.
Ken

great, just great....a whole another variable to contend with now. Actually, now that I remember from when we tried the last repair at the first mechanic we DID discover the tach was off. I completely forgot. it was at the low end where we saw it. it was off by 150 or 200rpm's at idle but now I can't remember which way it was off. I think it was reading a bit low on the tach compared to his meter but i may have it backwards.

 

[warren s]

I'm to the point of just forgetting all about any of these so-called expert mechanics around here, purchasing some basic equipment like a timing light, dwell meter, whatever, and learning how to do this myself with the help of everyone on here. one thing I can say on this forumn is that everyone is VERY generous with their knowledge and there sure seem to be some real experts here.
I even had an email yesterday from a CAC memeber who gave me his phone number, said I could call him and he thinks he can talk me through this with these basic tools. ( I still need to find a piston stop - none of the local parts shops seem to carry them so I just got the number of the local snap-on tools guy).
With all this help from memebers on here I think it may be possible for even a complete idiot like me to dive in and actually try the work myself. hell, i'm beginning to think I can't make it any worst than what I've already paid others to do.

The length of this post and the time and money wasted by a fellow Vette owner is getting me depressed.

I may have to pack up some tools and make a house call.

 

[BarryK]

I'm to the point of just forgetting all about any of these so-called expert mechanics around here, purchasing some basic equipment like a timing light, dwell meter, whatever, and learning how to do this myself with the help of everyone on here. one thing I can say on this forumn is that everyone is VERY generous with their knowledge and there sure seem to be some real experts here.
I even had an email yesterday from a CAC memeber who gave me his phone number, said I could call him and he thinks he can talk me through this with these basic tools. ( I still need to find a piston stop - none of the local parts shops seem to carry them so I just got the number of the local snap-on tools guy).
With all this help from memebers on here I think it may be possible for even a complete idiot like me to dive in and actually try the work myself. hell, i'm beginning to think I can't make it any worst than what I've already paid others to do.

The length of this post and the time and money wasted by a fellow Vette owner is getting me depressed.

I may have to pack up some tools and make a house call.

Warren
you are welcome at any time! As we discussed before, I'd drive up to you but I'm afraid to drive it that far the way it's currently running. A 10-20 mile drive close to home is ok for now because if it gets worst or something happens i'm close to friends, family, home and a relatively inexpensive towing fee. New York is pushing it for the way the car is running though

If you really want to come on a free day I'd love your help and the learning experience. Just tell me what kind of beer you like.

 

[warren s]

Barry


I will be off the week of July 5 to 9. Will cantact you.
Heineken

WS

 

[BarryK]

Barry


I will be off the week of July 5 to 9. Will cantact you.
Heineken

WS

cool, no problem

 

[JohnZ]

I'm simply amazed by this thread, and I can appreciate your frustration. However, this stuff is not rocket science (except to "mechanics" who have never had a distributor or carburetor apart and don't really understand how they work); any mechanic with basic tools and knowledge of these cars should be able to walk through the tune-up basics, identify anything that isn't performing, and bring it back to factory specs. I'd run and hide from the guy who plugged the vacuum advance "because you don't need it anyway" - he's obviously clueless about ignition timing and advance systems, and has no idea what they're for and how they work. In the short term, you need to find someone who really knows what they're doing - long-term, you can do most of these things yourself with a timing light, dwell meter, a decent selection of basic tools, a GM shop manual, and help from the Forum, and not have to depend on "mechanics" to keep the car running at its peak. I doubt if it would take someone who knows what they're doing more than a couple of hours to get it running right.

 

[BarryK]

I'm simply amazed by this thread, and I can appreciate your frustration. However, this stuff is not rocket science (except to "mechanics" who have never had a distributor or carburetor apart and don't really understand how they work); any mechanic with basic tools and knowledge of these cars should be able to walk through the tune-up basics, identify anything that isn't performing, and bring it back to factory specs. I'd run and hide from the guy who plugged the vacuum advance "because you don't need it anyway" - he's obviously clueless about ignition timing and advance systems, and has no idea what they're for and how they work. In the short term, you need to find someone who really knows what they're doing - long-term, you can do most of these things yourself with a timing light, dwell meter, a decent selection of basic tools, a GM shop manual, and help from the Forum, and not have to depend on "mechanics" to keep the car running at its peak. I doubt if it would take someone who knows what they're doing more than a couple of hours to get it running right.

John,
Nelieve me, I'm amazed at this whole fiasco also because I'm the one who has had to live through it!
The amount of money on parts and labor I've had to spend on this is a distrace and the car is worst now than before i started even after 4 shop visits to 2 mechanics.

I've thought about this a lot over the last two days and hearing all the new advice from everyone on here and I've decided on what I think is a good course of action to take.
first, I'm going to take the car back to the last mechanic to see if he can get it right since I've already paid him for the job - the least he can do is try to correct things! I'm not happy about going back, especially since his method of "repairs" includes BS work like plugging the vacumn, plus his location is an inconvinience - but I spent the $ already so I should at least try to get something out of it.
If that doesn't work than I'm buying basic tools such as a timing light, dwell meter and what else I may need to learn to do this myself with the help of everyone here. One member gave me his phone number and said I was welcome to call him and he should be able to talk me thru things via the phone while I'm at the car with all the tools and Warren offered to even drive down from NY to help me get this straightened out!
With all this help I have to be able to do better than these mechanics around here!
I have to say, this CAC is a GREAT place and I don't know where I would be at this point with everyone here.
Now all I have to worry about is if I end up doing the work myself that I don't blow up the motor! I've never so much as changed the oil in a car before. I used to do a bunch of work on my old bikes. I rebuilt the carbs a few times, changed a clutch, and did my oil changes, but cars are a bit more complex........If it comes down to me having to do this even with all of your help I'll need everyone to cross their fingers and a few prayers wouldn't be bad either!
LOL

 

[BarryK]

I just realized something to help put thing in perspective for myself here......
as bad as the mechanics I've dealt with so far have been, at least they didn't drop my car 6 feet off a lift!
i'm NOT making light of or fun of Barnetdh's problem at all - I really feel for the guy! As bad as my problem is for me, it's nothing like he has had to go through.
I guess once I put things in perspective it's easier to live with

 

[65 Sting]

Barry, I'm not a mechanic, but I'll tell you what I ran into with my vette. I also have a 65 Milano Maroon coupe that I bought in January, my first one. It was a frame off resto. with a 327 "cloned" to look like a 365 horse motor. Carb., intake, air cleaner, valve covers, exhaust manifolds, plus exhaust pipe diameter, and tach. were correct. Only one BIG problem, it ran like "s..t"! I decided to try a tune-up first, but before doing it my mechanic said we should try a leakdown compression check. It wasn't burning any oil but it only averaged 70 lbs. per cylinder!?!? Yikes!!! So , decided to tear her apart. :cry Guess what I found? Who ever last "fooled" with this engine put a 30-30 solid lifter cam in with "hydraulic lifters and valves" ad !!! No wonder my baby ran like "s..t". By having solid AND hyd. parts mixed together it caused the valves to only open about .180 and thru everything else off. So if all else fails you might consider having the cam and lifters checked. I decided to change my internals to hydraulic for now, but she purrs like a kitten, and runs like a tiger! Yippie!! (smile Good Luck in your quest. Steve St. Pete. Fl.

 

[BarryK]

Barry, I'm not a mechanic, but I'll tell you what I ran into with my vette. I also have a 65 Milano Maroon coupe that I bought in January, my first one. It was a frame off resto. with a 327 "cloned" to look like a 365 horse motor. Carb., intake, air cleaner, valve covers, exhaust manifolds, plus exhaust pipe diameter, and tach. were correct. Only one BIG problem, it ran like "s..t"! I decided to try a tune-up first, but before doing it my mechanic said we should try a leakdown compression check. It wasn't burning any oil but it only averaged 70 lbs. per cylinder!?!? Yikes!!! So , decided to tear her apart. :cry Guess what I found? Who ever last "fooled" with this engine put a 30-30 solid lifter cam in with "hydraulic lifters and valves" ad !!! No wonder my baby ran like "s..t". By having solid AND hyd. parts mixed together it caused the valves to only open about .180 and thru everything else off. So if all else fails you might consider having the cam and lifters checked. I decided to change my internals to hydraulic for now, but she purrs like a kitten, and runs like a tiger! Yippie!! (smile Good Luck in your quest. Steve St. Pete. Fl.

Hi Steve

When my car was at the last mechanic's last week he adjusted the valves so I know they are the proper solid lifter valves. Now, unless the previous owner went the opposite route and put a hydraulic cam in with solid lifter valves I shouldn't have that problem.
BTW, my friend also has a '65 and his was a 327/350. the previous owner changed his out to a 365 clone by swapping in the solid lifter valves and cam. At least his runs good.

Do you many comments on your Milano Maroon Coupe? Almost everywhere I go I get comments on the color - especially from other C2 owners. I guess maybe the Maroon wasn't a particually popular color back than and not many were made?? So many people say they never saw that color before. I love the color and am glad I found the car I wanted and it was this color.

 

[65 Sting]

Hi Barry, Yes, I get alot of thumbs up and coments on my vette. It seems that there were alot of red and Marianna blue vettes. I like my Milano Maroon. While this color was orginial to my car, when it had it's frameoff, it was repainted with alittle gold metalflake added to the Milano Maroon. In the bright sunlight it really attracts attendtion. My vette doesn't have the sidepipes but with the paint, repro goldline tires on the knockoff wheels. I see alot of turned heads, thumbsup and horn howking. Plus when I stop at traffic lights alot of people role their windows down and ask, what year, engine, saying how beautiful it is, etc. It always makes my day. Steve

 

[BarryK]

Hi Barry, Yes, I get alot of thumbs up and coments on my vette. It seems that there were alot of red and Marianna blue vettes. I like my Milano Maroon. While this color was orginial to my car, when it had it's frameoff, it was repainted with alittle gold metalflake added to the Milano Maroon. In the bright sunlight it really attracts attendtion. My vette doesn't have the sidepipes but with the paint, repro goldline tires on the knockoff wheels. I see alot of turned heads, thumbsup and horn howking. Plus when I stop at traffic lights alot of people role their windows down and ask, what year, engine, saying how beautiful it is, etc. It always makes my day. Steve

Steve

Mine is also an original Milano Maroon color built I suspect it's been repainted a few years ago (prior to the frame-off) because it's in too good of a shape to be a survivor paint job. Minne only have a tiny bit of metallic in it - not sure if that is truely accurate or not. I want to add the KO's on my car also. I think the combo with the KO's and sidepipes look great!
I know what you mean about the attention the car always gets - whther driving or parked everybody looks at her, asks about her, etc. It sure does make you feel good every time you go for a drive

 

[Ol Blue]

Barry
I've tried to quickly read through this thread to see if it sounded like the problems that I experienced in my 65 recently out of storage since 1996. My car just wouldn't rev past 4500, then it got worse. My first thoughts were that the carb, (an old junk one that I put on instead of rebuilding the FI unit) was bad and that when the back two barrels opened, it wasn't getting adequate fuel for the air.

I rebuild the carb, still same problem, tried another carb, still the same problem, but it seemed that it was breaking up at lower and lower rpm, almost like a rev limiter.

I replaced the spark plugs, the wires, new distributor cap, new Delco points and condenser. Still the same problem. This was over a weeks time and and effort on some very hot days.

Finally, I replaced the coil. PROBLEM FIXED!! It revs easily now and doesn't break up.

I don't know if this could be your problem, but it sure is a cheap trial.
Good Luck
Ol Blue

 

[Viet Nam Vett]

John,
Nelieve me, I'm amazed at this whole fiasco also because I'm the one who has had to live through it!
The amount of money on parts and labor I've had to spend on this is a distrace and the car is worst now than before i started even after 4 shop visits to 2 mechanics.

I've thought about this a lot over the last two days and hearing all the new advice from everyone on here and I've decided on what I think is a good course of action to take.
first, I'm going to take the car back to the last mechanic to see if he can get it right since I've already paid him for the job - the least he can do is try to correct things! I'm not happy about going back, especially since his method of "repairs" includes BS work like plugging the vacumn, plus his location is an inconvinience - but I spent the $ already so I should at least try to get something out of it.
If that doesn't work than I'm buying basic tools such as a timing light, dwell meter and what else I may need to learn to do this myself with the help of everyone here. One member gave me his phone number and said I was welcome to call him and he should be able to talk me thru things via the phone while I'm at the car with all the tools and Warren offered to even drive down from NY to help me get this straightened out!
With all this help I have to be able to do better than these mechanics around here!
I have to say, this CAC is a GREAT place and I don't know where I would be at this point with everyone here.
Now all I have to worry about is if I end up doing the work myself that I don't blow up the motor! I've never so much as changed the oil in a car before. I used to do a bunch of work on my old bikes. I rebuilt the carbs a few times, changed a clutch, and did my oil changes, but cars are a bit more complex........If it comes down to me having to do this even with all of your help I'll need everyone to cross their fingers and a few prayers wouldn't be bad either!
LOL

One other suggestion..... See if you can locate a Corvette Club in your area. Search google ..... I'm sure you will find someone in that club that can help you out either directly or refer you to a mechanic who knows what a Vacuume Advance does as well as find the problem..


Here's a link to Club Listings... http://www.idavette.net/clubs.htm#D


There are 4 listings ..only 2 are displaying a page...Give them a call ...

This is not Rocket Tech stuff..!!!!!!! Any mechanic worth his weight in grease should be able to run yor problem down..Stay away from the Vacuum Line Plugger......

 

[BarryK]

Barry
I've tried to quickly read through this thread to see if it sounded like the problems that I experienced in my 65 recently out of storage since 1996. My car just wouldn't rev past 4500, then it got worse. My first thoughts were that the carb, (an old junk one that I put on instead of rebuilding the FI unit) was bad and that when the back two barrels opened, it wasn't getting adequate fuel for the air.

I rebuild the carb, still same problem, tried another carb, still the same problem, but it seemed that it was breaking up at lower and lower rpm, almost like a rev limiter.

I replaced the spark plugs, the wires, new distributor cap, new Delco points and condenser. Still the same problem. This was over a weeks time and and effort on some very hot days.

Finally, I replaced the coil. PROBLEM FIXED!! It revs easily now and doesn't break up.

I don't know if this could be your problem, but it sure is a cheap trial.
Good Luck
Ol Blue

Hi Blue

Yeah, a few people mentioned a possible carb problem but so far nobody ever mentioned possible coil problems. Something else to look into I guess.
Thanks!

Barry

 

[BarryK]

One other suggestion..... See if you can locate a Corvette Club in your area. Search google ..... I'm sure you will find someone in that club that can help you out either directly or refer you to a mechanic who knows what a Vacuume Advance does as well as find the problem..
This is not Rocket Tech stuff..!!!!!!! Any mechanic worth his weight in grease should be able to run yor problem down..Stay away from the Vacuum Line Plugger......

Hi VNV

I'm a member of my local Corvette Club. The last mechanic I took the car to last week is one that came recommended by a lot of my fellow club members that have used him a lot throughout the years and swear by him. Turns out the car was the worst after him than it was before! He is also the one who plugged the vacuum line
Since I already paid him $ the least he can do is try to make it right so I dropped the car off last night to him again but after talking to him when dropping it off I still don't have any confidence it will be correct after he is finished. I mentioned that I wasn't happy at all with the vacuum line plugging method but he played it off and just told me "don't worry about that - it's not important and it needed to be done." According to him, without plugging the line my advance was up around 58 degrees of advance or something like that? So he needed to do it to get the advance down.
So, bottom line, I have a VERY strong feeling that in a day or two when I get my car back from him again I'll still have issues and will have to take the do-it-yourself route. This will be a huge learning experience.
Luckily, one of my neighbors who has a '67 427/435 came by yesterday and after telling him the whole story he said don't worry - if the mechanic can't get it correct he will help me with a friend of his and we will all work on the car together. My neighbor has all the tools, timing lights, dwell meters, etc as he does all his own work. He thinks we should be able to get it without much problem.
If it comes to take - which I suspect it will - I'm compliling a list of all the things everyoneone on here suggested to look into and to do and I'll make sure we check everything in an orderly and comprehensive way and hopefully we shouldn't miss anything.
oh, my neighbor and I took our cars to a cruise show yesterday and we ran into a few old-time car friends of his - one of them has had 5 Vettes with this same motor throughout the years - and it was suggested that with all the vacuum issues and advance problems it was definately still the distributor causing most of my problems. Even though I ordered all new parts from LICS for when we rebuilt the distributor a few weeks ago these are not original parts by genaric parts nowadays and it's difficult to get it right, especially on the proper weights and springs. He suggested getting a weights and spring package from Trane that has a bunch of them and see which ones work best and that should help a lot.
At this point, I wish I could find a proper GM NOS '65 distributor correct for my 327/365 all complete and I'd just drop it in and be done with it! At least that way I know that is one whole varible less to have to contend with.
right now, my feelings toward all these so-called "expert" mechanics around here whether they come recommended or not is this:

 

[ctjackster]

Hi VNV


At this point, I wish I could find a proper GM NOS '65 distributor correct for my 327/365 all complete and I'd just drop it in and be done with it!

you want the 1111069, although unless it is NOS still in box and in great condition (I have one on my shelf, still in the box) you will have no idea what shape it is in, what weights are in there, etc. etc.:

From Hemmings:

DISTRIBUTORS: 1111024 3A7, $275; 1111069 5L6, $275; 1111093 5M13, $525; 1111258 6H30, $525; 1111157 7C13, $525; 1111141 6D5, $275; 1111954 9B3, $525; 1112050 1K6, $275; 1111294 7C7, $525; 1111063, $850; many others available, all fully restored; 1964-67 TI amplifiers, $250; 68-71 amplifiers, $225; all fully restored, NOS and restored non R distributor caps, NOS Delco D-324 dual window caps, $65; rebuilding and restoration services available. 630-469-6747, FAX: 630-620-0639, IL; email: lt172350@aol.com Category: Collector

 

[Viet Nam Vett]

Heh Barry...Well it sounds like your neighbor is the way to go. Well see what happens when you get your car back from the Plugger.

We will all be interested to find out excactly what the problem is when it's all over. Keep us posted..

 

[BarryK]

you want the 1111069, although unless it is NOS still in box and in great condition (I have one on my shelf, still in the box) you will have no idea what shape it is in, what weights are in there, etc. etc.:

From Hemmings:

DISTRIBUTORS: 1111024 3A7, $275; 1111069 5L6, $275; 1111093 5M13, $525; 1111258 6H30, $525; 1111157 7C13, $525; 1111141 6D5, $275; 1111954 9B3, $525; 1112050 1K6, $275; 1111294 7C7, $525; 1111063, $850; many others available, all fully restored; 1964-67 TI amplifiers, $250; 68-71 amplifiers, $225; all fully restored, NOS and restored non R distributor caps, NOS Delco D-324 dual window caps, $65; rebuilding and restoration services available. 630-469-6747, FAX: 630-620-0639, IL; email: lt172350@aol.com Category: Collector

Hi CT

you have a NOS proper distributor for the 327/365 sitting unused??!!
hmmmmm, interested in selling? if so, how much for a fellow CAC member in distrss and dire straits?

 

[BarryK]

Heh Barry...Well it sounds like your neighbor is the way to go. Well see what happens when you get your car back from the Plugger.

We will all be interested to find out excactly what the problem is when it's all over. Keep us posted..

VNV

I just left "Pluggers" shop. I wanted to drop off to him some of the old parts that were replaced from the distributor during the rebuild a few weeks ago from the prior mechanic - most especially the main shaft as the newer shafts are somewhat more genaric as I understand it and perhaps the lobe on the shape is ground a little different. that could cause problems couldn't it??
In either case, he said he already took the car for a test drive and he wasn't gettinng any "break-up" at the high rpm range. It sure felt like break up to me! Not really missing or spits so much as just feeling really rough overall. As for the idle problem, he is suggesting now the gaskets in the carb may be dried up and I suppose that would cause air leaks. He also wants to check the points. Additionally, now he is pointing his finger at the coil (things everyone here already mentioned of course). Why couldn't he just have known enough to check all of this the first time? Hell, how could have let the car out back to me last week without knowing just how bad she was running??

Well, just confirms that I don't have much confidence in what the result will be after he finishes this time either. Will also be interesting to see if he is going to try to charge me again for him time considering I only took it back to him a second time to try to get him to fix what he made worst and couldn't fix the first time around.

I'll let you know how it comes out and when my neighbor and I start working on her.