Value of a number-matching engine?

[akfox1]

Looking for opinions, please.

Background:
My entire car was a basket case, which I completely rebuilt, frame-off, over 5 years. It is a 1969, originally 350/300 hp 4 spd. It was in such rough shape, it now has several incorrect pieces, including the engine (1968 327 block) and transmission (Keisler TKO-500).

If I ever sell this car, I feel that the value is compromised by not having a "matching number" engine. Would it be worthwhile to purchase a "correct" casting block and heads to hold and sell with the car someday? Or does the non-original nature of the rest of the car outweigh matching casting numbers to a potential buyer?

I am not looking to "fool" anyone, just want to know what people are willing to pay for. I would let them know that the engine was not the original. If I could offer the car with a "numbers- matching" engine, will the average buyer see that as worth more? How much more?

Thanks.

 

[GerryLP]

Looking for opinions, please.

Background:
My entire car was a basket case, which I completely rebuilt, frame-off, over 5 years. It is a 1969, originally 350/300 hp 4 spd. It was in such rough shape, it now has several incorrect pieces, including the engine (1968 327 block) and transmission (Keisler TKO-500).

If I ever sell this car, I feel that the value is compromised by not having a "matching number" engine. Would it be worthwhile to purchase a "correct" casting block and heads to hold and sell with the car someday? Or does the non-original nature of the rest of the car outweigh matching casting numbers to a potential buyer?

I am not looking to "fool" anyone, just want to know what people are willing to pay for. I would let them know that the engine was not the original. If I could offer the car with a "numbers- matching" engine, will the average buyer see that as worth more? How much more?

Thanks.

It's all, really, in the eye of the beholder. If the potential buyer is looking for an investment, then he or she will tend to focus on a vehicle that has a documented history, numbers matching, and even perhaps a restoration by someone who is a "recognized" restorer.

On the other hand, someone who is just looking for a vehicle due to sentimental value (i.e I would love to own a 1961 Belair or Impala), will tend to not fret over the details. My dad had 61 Impala (in which I rode as a kid), and I would love to own one now.

One good source for you to check out are the big auction houses. They have a history of what type of vehicle sold for how much, and then maybe you can compare your Vette to another Vette sold which had similar conditions/equipment.

And here is a different perspective...my friend has a 72 Cuda that after it was purchased, the original owner added a 70's style wing (spoiler) on the back. Even though this was not factory or dealer installed (for that matter not an available item from the factory), it does not take away from the car's value. These type of owner installed items convey the existing culture within the muscle car era at the time, and thus it's valuable as well. In fact, is probably not unlike some of our CAC members improving their Corvettes to fit their personal taste and current sports car era culture.

So don't worry and be happy

GerryLP:cool

p.s. The muscle car bubble will pop pretty soon, and an adjustment will take place within the market. KOTH (ZR-1) owners beware...you're Vettes will always be popular no matter what a magazine editor may think.

 

[Tritium007]

I would suggest you gather some information concerning current prices for same year verts with and without matching number's engines, or cars that are close to original and custom. Value is a relative term and there are many perspectives to take. People buy vettes for many different reasons, only a portion value matching numbers. You have obviously put a lot of time and $$$ into your baby and what price tag could be put on that? Most resto's don't get dollar for dollar back in your investment, so why shell out more for the matching engine and tranny with no guaranty of return. That's where the comparison of with and without may be of help. I haven't done this and would be curious. I have seen cars go for six figures and can't really place my finger as to why. I honestly don't believe that there is that much of a synergistic effect that the value will be substantially higher with the matching numbers except to a narrower group of people in that specific market. It doesn't seem like you bought the car as an investment, more of a love affair. I would just keep it or pass it on to someone you love. You asked for opinions, sorry.


Beautiful ride BTW,
Mike

 

[Bob Chadwick]

I don't know about the tranny but the engine number is matched to the VIN and once gone, it is always gone unless you have one modified, something that is happening more and more.

While I still have the matching engine, I have made a lot of mods to my car. I just want to enjoy driving it.

 

[BarryK]

Bob is correct. Even if you found and purchased a correct cast # block with a correct date code for your car it still isn't "numbers matching" as the VIN derivative won't be stamped on the engine stamp pad.
Of you you could get it restamped and if it was done perfectly it could pass as an original numbers matching motor but unless you plan on than trying to scam a future buyer and get a higher price on the car representing it as a numbers matching car (which I would never advise doing) than don't bother and just enjoy the car as it is. Many people are actually looking for NOM cars.
My '65 is a complete original numbers matching car but any additional future older Vette I buy will most likely NOT be. I'll look for a NOM car simply because than I can do what i want to the car (just as you have) without feeling guilty about taking away from the originality of it.
My advise is to just drive and enjoy your car as much as possible and don't worry so much about resale value until you decide you want to sell it and than sell it as the car it is, not try to pass it off as something it's not. There is already too much of that going on in the market now. Besides, if you bought a correct block to keep and sell with the car later on, even if you plan on being completely upfront and honest about the car, that just encourages the next owner to take that block, restamp it, and create another fake car on the market.

just my $.02

 

[early shark]

Not having thee original engine, is not as critical on 'vettes that were not built in very limited numbers, ie: L-88's, LS-6, ZL-1, L-89. The diminished value is severe for the SHP models with only part of the original drivetrain components.

 

[lnirenberg]

Slightly off topic re. the muscle car bubble, when you see the prices for well done but identified clones it really makes me think the end is near. Its especially galling with all the fretting a lot of us do over numbers.

 

[L48]

My 2 cents:

Unless you can track down the block that came in the car with the last six digits of the VIN stamped into it, it will not be numbers matching. IMO the block casting numbers matching will not increase the value enough to offset the expense of building another engine. If you are planning to rebuild anyway then it might be worth the trouble to find the correct castings.
I agree that once the numbers are not matching it would be easier to modify the car to your liking. I expect my next Vette will not be numbers matching as that will allow me to get a car in better condition for the money since I won't have to compete with the collectors to buy it.

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

My 2 cents:

Unless you can track down the block that came in the car with the last six digits of the VIN stamped into it, it will not be numbers matching.

That says it all! I wish more people could grasp this concept, but the term 'numbers matching' is now so vague and nebulous things won't change much.

 

[akfox1]

That says it all! I wish more people could grasp this concept, but the term 'numbers matching' is now so vague and nebulous things won't change much.

Yes, but cars are sold every day as "correct", or "numbers matching" that are not the original.

That is the real question. It is vague. People say "numbers matching" and it can mean casting numbers, the VIN stamp on the deck, date codes, alternators, carburetors, etc.

It seems to me that a buyer would value the "correct" parts, (casting numbers) even if they are not the "original" parts. Even the NCRS accepts restamped blocks if the stamping looks right, don't they? (Seems like I read this in Corvette Fever once. I'm not an NCRS member.)

Should I invest in the "correct" block and heads if I can find them at a reasonable cost?

 

[BarryK]

"correct" numbers matching means the casting numbers, the casting date codes, and the VIN derivative are all correct. Now, what gets confusing and really screws up the market and the value on cars is that someone can take a NOM car, find a correct casting number and dated block, restamp the stamp pad and now call it a "numbers matching" car. Tecnically correct but realistically wrong. Others may disagree but to me if you are trying to buy or to sell a numbers matching car the value depends on it being the correct ORIGINAL motor/trans numbers matching car meaning the exact block and tranny that came installed in the car when it left the factory - not a replacement restamped block.
For me, anything less than the ORIGINAL motor means it's not a true numbers matching car. If someone is trying to sell a car with a replacement restamped block and passing it off as numbers matching to get a higher $$$ for the car is nothing short of fraud and unethical. If you want to put a restamp block in to make everything APPEAR as correct but informing all perspective buyers that it's a restamp than at least they aren't trying to scam anyone and I don't have a problem with that as long as they also are not trying to get the same $$$ amount as a true original motor car would bring.

just my $.02

 

[lnirenberg]

The ads that I really get a kick out of are the ones the contain both #s matching and NOM. Please figure that one out for me.

 

[Tritium007]

As I read the info posted on the NCRS website, they recognize that these cars were raced hard in the early years and many original blocks destroyed as a result. They accept as "correct" an engine with a proper casting number for the year and model and a reasonable date code. Reasonable, meaning the date code is close to the assembly date for the vehicle but not after that date. If the engine is stamped with the vin#, then it MUST be the original block to be considered for judging. Other than that constitutes fraud. For NCRS judging, I believe that "correct" and "matching numbers" rate the same. It's when the "For Sale" sign goes in the window that things change. Personally, I don't understand all the bru-ha-ha. It's an engine block.

Mike

 

[Tritium007]

The ads that I really get a kick out of are the ones the contain both #s matching and NOM. Please figure that one out for me.

Could mean he's lying about being a liar. :L

Mike

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

As I read the info posted on the NCRS website, they recognize that these cars were raced hard in the early years and many original blocks destroyed as a result. They accept as "correct" an engine with a proper casting number for the year and model and a reasonable date code. Reasonable, meaning the date code is close to the assembly date for the vehicle but not after that date. If the engine is stamped with the vin#, then it MUST be the original block to be considered for judging. Other than that constitutes fraud. For NCRS judging, I believe that "correct" and "matching numbers" rate the same.

Ummm, not quite. NCRS never ever uses the term 'numbers matching' in judging for lots of good reasons.

NCRS Flight Judging does not attempt to determine or decree that any part of a car (including and especially the engine block) is the one that actually came from the factory in that particular car.

It's a simple concept- the engine casting number, casting date, and the various stamp pad features are judged sequentially. If there is something 'wrong' (better said as not typical of factory production) then the cylinder case section of the judging stops right there and the appropriate points deduction is taken. The further along you go in the sequence, the smaller the total possible deduction becomes. For a phony stamp pad to escape any deduction, it would have to be a spot-on reproduction in every shape and form including broach marks, and not just any old bubba-induced fantasy.

The concept is that if walks like, looks like and quacks like, it must therefore be one.

It's a shame that so many people buy a car for top dollar on the strength of a Flight Judging certificate. Turn one over some day and read what's on the back. The certificate, that is. :L

 

[BarryK]

Vettehead Mikey is correct. NCRS rules do not state that the motor, tranny, or anything else on the car at all be original, only that it APPEARS as the same as when it left the factory.
Numbers matching and NCRS aren't the same. My '65 coupe has the true original numbers matching motor and trans and most of the major componets in the engine bay, but I would fail NCRS judging miserably because of a number of items on the car simply because my car did not leave the factory in the condition it's currently in. I have brand new base coat/clear coat paint that is in much better shape than any paint job ever left the factory with, my teak wheel is a repro, the factory sisdepipes were installed on the car at a later date, a hurst shifter that looks like the original but would take judges about 2 seconds to find out it's not, etc. Numbers matching and NCRS don't go together. in NCRS if the motor isn't original, than you are better off having a correct casting and dated block with the stamp pad left blank that trying to restamp it and pass it off as real since 99.5% of the time the judges will notice the difference on the pad on a restamp.
Numbers matching cars will typically have a higher resale value, but only if it's a true, original, numbers matching block. As another poster already said, once the "For Sale" sign goes up if it's a restamp and being sold as numbers matching it's fraud

 

[Tritium007]

Mikey,

Are you saying that if the car doesn't have the original motor then points are deducted? I got the impression (and I'm not even close to being an expert) that it didn't matter if the vin stamp was on the pad if the casting and date code were "correct". If the vin stamp was there, then it had better pass any visual inspection and should without a doubt appear original with no irregularities and match the vehicle vin#. Do you have to grind/remove any vin#'s on the block that don't match the vehicle vin if for instance you found and installed a "correct" block and wanted to have the car judged ? How does that work? :confused

Mike

 

[Tritium007]

Barry,

You answered my question. We must have been typing at the same time. Thanks, here's another. So is there anyone/organization who does judge a corvette based on it having true matching numbers components? Where does this so-called "value" come from for a car with the original engine. Are there other makes and models that value this same distinction?

Enquiring minds want to know,
Mike

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

Mikey,

Are you saying that if the car doesn't have the original motor then points are deducted? I got the impression (and I'm not even close to being an expert) that it didn't matter if the vin stamp was on the pad if the casting and date code were "correct". If the vin stamp was there, then it had better pass any visual inspection and should without a doubt appear original with no irregularities and match the vehicle vin#. Do you have to grind/remove any vin#'s on the block that don't match the vehicle vin if for instance you found and installed a "correct" block and wanted to have the car judged ? How does that work? :confused

Mike

The key is what the car (or engine or component) APPEARS to be at time of judging. If there is no visible clue that the engine is not the factory original one, then no deductions are taken. Keep in mind that the inspection is merely a visual one, no DNA or urine samples are taken :L.

If the VIN stamp is obscured/gone, or is not typical of factory production, including it not agreeing with the car's VIN then the appropriate deduction is taken. 'Wrong' or absent or bad restamp are all considered the same thing, same deduction amount.

Same applies to the engine plant stamp and the broach marks. This part is only judged after the casting number and casting date is judged.

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

So is there anyone/organization who does judge a corvette based on it having true matching numbers components?

NCRS Bowtie judging (only unrestored 100% virgin cars need apply) puts great emphasis on determining if the component has been there since day one. This might be the closest thing to what you're looking for.