Why is originality such a major concern?

[vipergts]

Sorry guys I'm new to the Corvette world and I live in the UK so pardon my ignorance.

BUT why is there so much focus on originality with these cars. Don't get me wrong you get it with other marques but to a much much lesser degree of importance.

I hear you guys talking about devalueing your cars by fitting certain items even though it would make the driving experience much better.

For example if someone chooses to fit side pipes and uses original parts who's to know that they weren't factory fit? Or K/O wheels instead of hub caps?

As I understad it there is no register that confirms options at build.

Is it all to do with ultimate value?

Thanks Chaps in advance for your helping me to understand

lee

 

[JonM]

Its YOUR car...do as you like with it.

 

[BarryK]

Hi Lee

welcome to CAC

not ALL people are concerned about oroginality, but yes, many, many are and it does tend to increas ethe value of a classic corvette to be all or mostly original.
Many people feel that the desirablility and value onthese classic cars are enhanced by the car being as original as possible - meaning the original motor block, tranny, heads, intake, carb, alternator, starter, etc, etc, etc.

I think the idea is to be able to represent and enjoy driving the car as closely as possible to the way it was when it rolled off the factory production floor.
so many of these cars over the years have had the motors changed out, other parts swapped in, suspensions changed, etc that relatively very few of them are still original, either original parts and restored, or even more so a true original "survivor" which is a car with all or most of the original parts, still in decent condition, never restored. A true survivor car is really a piece of preserved history.

A lot of the "arguments" or debates" come in when discussing originality though and if 100 people answer you will most likely get 125 different answers.
What is original?
is it strictly the exact parts that were on the car when the car left the factory? Some people say yes. Other people are satisfied to accept originality as the correct part - meaning correct casting number and correct date codes for the part - but that part may be a replacement part from another car of the same year so the part os "correct" but it's not the true original part that the car started off life with.

Whether someone personally feels a car that is original or mostly original is worth more or not is up to them. Some people don't give a flying hoot one way or the other and some prefer a completely non-original car.
If a car is original though, right, wrong, or indifferent, the market has determined that it typically has more value and therefore typically a higher priced resell value over a non-original car.


On items like side pipes, KO wheels, etc, the same issues apply. A car that has items on it that weren't there when the car was first made will typically have a somewhat decreased value.
side pipes are a very popular item that have been added to many, many cars that didn't originally come with them because they look and sound great. Most of the time, someone who knows what to look for can determne though if the car originally was equiped with side pipes or not by a number of differences or clues on the car.
KO wheels are a bit more difficult. If you were to find and purchase a set of true original Kelsey Hayes KO wheels and they are all properly date codes within the correct date range for you car and installed them, than it would be pretty impossible to determine if they were really original to the car or if they were added on later.

To answer your final question......... Yes, it all has to do with the ultimate value of the car. An original "numbers matching" car with true original parts on it (I'm not including "restamped" parts because that is another whole issue I'm NOT going to get into) is typically worth more than a similar car that is not original.

I hope this helps a little.

 

[grumpyvette]

It TOTALLY depends on what your intended use for the car is.
if you want to have it judged as an orriginal corvette, then of course it will need to remain in O.E.M. condition, but well done and TASTEFUL/FUNCTIONAL modifications can even add value or at least not hurt it much, those side pipe exhaust you mentioned are a good example, if you can locate and install the factory correct side pipes on a corvette they WERE ORRIGINALLY DESIGNED FOR AND FACTORY INSTALLED ON, like a mid 60s C2 vette, they may raise the value in all but the most strict contests where the cars VIN, and build sheet will be used to VERIFY the factory equipment, but slap an aftermarket set on lets say a 1999-2006 vette that they were NEVER available for and youll drop the value in most peoples eyes

 

[vipergts]

Thanks for your answers guys that has helped.

I also have a 97 Viper GTS that I have owned from new. It's done 5000 miles and is like brand new never having had any paintwork and still as you'd expect with all its original bits......Trouble is, I'm scared to drive the damn thing through fear of damaging it. So you see the only pleasure I have now is to look at it...Not much fun in that.

The 427 I have is a different story. Blue for the last 27 years changed from it's original Milano. It has KO rims and side pipes. I know the rims are repros and I'm told the side pipes are original.....I don't want it to drive me bonkers and I'm determined to enjoy the car for as long as I can (by driving it).

I then start wondering what else has changed aside from the colour and rims.
It has all the bits that tell a pro that it started life as a 427 but how am I ever going to be 100% if there is no build sheet? What is the single biggest thing to look at for clarification?

I have every confidence in the guy I bought it from....He is a perfect Gent and knows his onions, I just feel I'd like to be able to know for sure I have the real deal.

 

[ZRGator]

Barry was "spot on" with his expalnation to you. Now I'd suggest you contact the NCRS (National Corvette Restorers Society) at ncrs.com on the web and perhaps consider purchasing some of their excellent books to help you decipher your car.
Cheers and welcome to the CAC!
P.S. we'll do our best to overlook the fact that you own a Viper and appreciate that you're coming to your senses.

 

[BarryK]

It has all the bits that tell a pro that it started life as a 427 but how am I ever going to be 100% if there is no build sheet? What is the single biggest thing to look at for clarification?

I have every confidence in the guy I bought it from....He is a perfect Gent and knows his onions, I just feel I'd like to be able to know for sure I have the real deal.

is your car a '66 or a '67?
If it's a '67 you MIGHT get lucky and find the original build sheet on the gas tank. If so, than you can see what motor it originally came with.
If the build sheet is gone or it's a '66 you are out of luck (build sheets didn't start until '67).

without original documentation stating what motor the car started life with than you can never be 100% sure.
There are certain things you can check out that if the car was originally a SB car rather than a BB car that may tell you the BB motor in the car isn't orginal such as the fuel lines are different, the rear halfshaft yokes are different, etc but these things can be changed out also to the proper items for a BB car so where there is a chance these areas can be used to "prove" the car wasn't originally a BB car, you can't always count on them.

It's unfortunate, but with the high values on BB midyear cars, unless you have the original documentation and/or are the original purchaser and owner of the car, there is no way to be 100% sure of what the car really was.
It's not a great situation, but yous pays yours money and yous takes your chances.
That is why the highly documented cars typically bring the most money - they can "prove": what they really are.

 

[Kid_Again]

Welcome to the CAC!


As with any other used car, one can not be certain of anything. My observation is this hobby consists of two major divisions - the NCRS/restoration crowd and all others. Either is perfectly acceptable.

In my own mind, fraud is such a pervasive part of this hobby that I just don't want to put the energy into figuring out whether the car is truly "correct".

Enjoy the car and enjoy the discussions!

 

[vipergts]

Thanks once again.

Like your comment re the Viper.......Forgive me I bought it 9 years ago now when I felt youthful...Now that I'm older and my hair has turned grey i thought I ought to take things a little easy. Hence my latest toy...the Vette.lol

Barry the car has the fuel lines and the stronger yokes and plenty more including some different welds on the chassis(?) and thinker anti roll bars and gauges and opposite side bonnet stay etc etc.......But I'm relatively happy it is what it says it is and prices aren't what they are over there yet so I'm gonna have fun.

thanks guys

 

[Kid_Again]

Sounds like things are falling into place for you to have an original big block car.

Hood hinge on the other side, thicker antisway bar. Also look for an 80# oil pressure gauge and square half-shaft end caps. There are no different frame welds for a big block frame for your year.


I can't see the specs on your car (which year is it?) but if it's a 390hp L36, you have a Holley sitting on a cast iron intake manifold and if there is a yellow sticker on the passenger rear of the valve cover it states "IL". Yuor redline will be 5500rpm becuase you have factory hydraulic lifters. The higher horsepower engines had higher redlines and aluminum intakes and solid lifter cams (except the 400hp tripower).

Sorry for the run-on post.

Again, welcome.

 

[BarryK]

........... so I'm gonna have fun.

thanks guys

that's what really counts anyway

 

[tigernut]

Like your comment re the Viper.......Forgive me I bought it 9 years ago now when I felt youthful...Now that I'm older and my hair has turned grey i thought I ought to take things a little easy. Hence my latest toy...the Vette.lol

Don't apologize for owning a Viper, great car. I love the hardtop vipers, especially when you put forced induction on one!

I'd trade my 66 vette in a heartbeat for one, but that's just me.

Doug

 

[JohnZ]

I'm a little bit biased toward Vipers myself (Viper Plant Manager, 1995-2001) . If you're interested in determining how much of your Corvette might be original, there's an NCRS Chapter in the U.K. that can assist you. If you go to the NCRS site (www.ncrs.org) and click on the "contacts" button, you'll find it.

 

[74bigblock]

Look at the front cross member. If there is a big dimple in the middle of it, then chances are it started life as a big block. This is one of the hardest places to fake.

 

[vintagecorvette]

Look at the front cross member. If there is a big dimple in the middle of it, then chances are it started life as a big block. This is one of the hardest places to fake.

All 1965-67 frames have the dimple as you call it. 1963-64 did not.


oWEN

 

[vipergts]

Hi yes the car is a 66 and a 425 bhp car and I was aware that the "Dimple" happened on all chassis from 65.

John...must have been a pretty cool job you had there. Strange to think you played a part in the build of my little baby.

cheers

 

[Kid_Again]

Decent car!

So, you will have the 80# oil gauge and the high redline tach.

 

[1KULC7]

First of all welcome to the board.

I use to live in Brackley, in the Mid-lands, for three years. I drove a Mini...and even today have a newer version of the Mini. I went to Cooper Race School out at Sterling Speedway...and even worked corners there for a while. I loved the Vintage Race Days, and got to see some nice Corvettes and Jags go at it, as well as the Tigers and Cobras....I miss England and my wife and I are planning to return next year.

Now just remember, for most car people the Corvette is the car to own, from the 50's through today the Corvette turns heads. OK my take is this, one of two way to look at this. The first is for many people (although they will not admit it) its the investment of trying to increase the value of the car, as total stock cars seem to bring a better price then most that have been modified, and even then there are exceptions to this rule. So one rease is return on dollar spent.

The second is; for most of us, we fall into the catagory back in the 60's we were either a few years to young or could not afford at the time a NEW C2 when it came off the factory floor. So we waited many years, raised a family, and finally the opportunity came allowing us to purchase our "dream car". However, much like us, its 40 years or so later, and the new car is now an antique car. So, unlike many of us, we strive to turn back the clock, rebuild these cars like they were new, and "pretend" we have a new C2...by changing and restoring it to the newest possible condition we can.

Now I could be dead wrong, but I know in my case its the latter, and I would venture to guess if people are really honest...I guess you would fine one of the two.

Exception to rule, the Hot Rodder who would take any new car and modify it to the way they like it. In this case it fits really with my second guess...except instead of returning it to new stock, its retro hot rod.....

 

[Jeff Farrar]

Decent car!

So, you will have the 80# oil gauge and the high redline tach.

Kid_Again,

Not all BB's had an 80# oil gauge. I forget the break down but it's in Nolan's book. My '67 with an L68, came with a 60# gauge. And yes I have the orignal tank sheet, Protec-O-Plate, etc. And I know the cluster is original as well.

 

[Viet Nam Vett]

I'm a little bit biased toward Vipers myself (Viper Plant Manager, 1995-2001) . If you're interested in determining how much of your Corvette might be original, there's an NCRS Chapter in the U.K. that can assist you. If you go to the NCRS site (www.ncrs.org) and click on the "contacts" button, you'll find it.

Wow.....Perd-ey.... Looky Looky....Blue and White stiped Turtels...