1965 327/365 vert -- help me verify originality

[neelfryer]

hello
I'm a brand new member on the site and I have to say I am amazed at how knowledgeable everyone is....and respectful and supportive -- I'm blown away. I'm hoping you guys can help me. I've been looking to but a 65 vert for my brother's 40th b'day. He was born in 65 so ... it would be a great gift. I am a shelby guy and a GTO guy but I've never owned or bought a vette so I'm feeling suddenly nervous about being able to suss out what I've been told is a numbers matching car.
I'm going to put my hands on the car on Saturday so any quick tips would go along way. It is Nassau Blue with white gut -- 4speed, and supposed to be a 365 hp car. Now I've learnned enough to know where the 2 data plates are -- under the glove box -- but I'm told that they will basically tell me the color and trim and VIN. I guess what I need to know is how can I tell which trans is in the car -- I know there are 2 -- without checking for casting numbers is there any way to eyeball the difference. It is a non-air car if that helps.
I guess my real question would be how can I tell if it's the original block that is in the car -- where is the stamp on the block -- will it be easily accessible -- the owner has been very nice over the phone and has said that I should bring a book to check codes which makes me initially confident that I'm not being rooked -- I know that blocks can be decked and re-stamped -- but I'll try my best to sniff out originality --
my other big question to you guys is -- besides the number stamped on the block -- what are the really important codes to look for -- and which are the easiest to find -- I understand the car should have a particular holley but if I find that it's not a holley is that a big detraction -- or the heads or the trans -- he says it's full posi but he also said that you can go 45 in first gear -- which I'm very shocked about -- those can't be gears that are too tall if that is the case -- what was original -- 3.55?
I have the VIN number and I understand that I should be looking for the last digits of the VIN on the block but .... what else should I look for -- you guys talk about the birdcage...what is that? I will check for rust behind the wheels but it's a southern california car so I'm hoping it will be pretty clean -- I don't think he has any paper work on the car and is that okay? In the vette world does that really hurt value? I'm hoping that with all of the codes on these cars that as long as the major components match I'm buying a car that is correct enough to spend strong money on after I purchase it with the hopes that it will retain value. Thanks guys -- I know I rambled but it's late and I'm tired but I have to get my head straight before I see the car this weekend because I like all of us get emotional and I will develop a bad crush on a bad car really easily. Thanks in advance for sharing any thoughts. Sean

 

[IH2LOSE]

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your purchase.

High HP midyears prices are way out of control over the last 5 years, I am fairley new to owning vettes my first one I purchased in 2000 and I am still learning about them. If I was in the market today to purchase a HIGH dollar vette I would only be looking at car with recent documented flight judging from the NCRS.

If it was a HIGH hp motor I would only be purchasing a car with documentation showing what the car came with from the factory.

1. I would also go to the NCRS web site and see if you could enlist the help of a local to the car NCRS judge to do his best to authenticate what the car really is.

its unfortunate but we consider this to be a hobby, There are some folks who consider this a buisness. With all of the information out there with a little research and some time anybody can build a high hp clone and represent it as an original high hp car and make a fortune reselling the cars

I am sorry I can not answer your questions directly.

I have 2 brothers also and both are my Heros so I understand you wanting him to have a great car.

Good Luck

other should be able to give you some clues as to what to look for.But with out Documents its just some clues

 

[67HEAVEN]

Sean,

A big welcome to

....you guys talk about the birdcage...what is that?

I will check for rust behind the wheels but it's a southern california car so I'm hoping it will be pretty clean

Check for rust "in front" of the rear wheels. These cars are known to have frame problems there. In particular, check the entire area around where the rear trailing arms enter the frame just in front of the rear wheels.

Example of a mid-70's Corvette I looked over recently. It needs a complete frame. You can push a screwdriver through the frame in many places.

This C3 (for example) also has serious rot in the headlight area. This photo is taken from below looking up. The grill, headlights and hood are out. In fact, this car is so bad that it's really just a parts shell.

There's a lot more metal in these old cars than people imagine.

Others with more answers will be along soon.

 

[stepinwolf]

Sean,

Regardless of the amount of technical information that will be coming your way through well intentioned Forum members, there is nothing that can compete with first hand experience. You could receive a book full of recommendations, but you still will be faced with what is considered a " get it right the first time " thing, and personally it's not something I would be comfortable with.

The BEST recommendation I could give you, would be to enlist the help of a knowledgeable Corvette person ( pay for the service if need be ) in the hobby, to go over the car with you, and point out all the items that may turn into issues, sometime down the line, if God forbid, you made the wrong choice.

Welcome to the Forum from all of us


Stepinwolf

 

[BarryK]

Hi Neelfryer

welcome to CAC.

first of all I'll agree with Larry above, the midyear Corvette prices have skyrocketed that last number of years and because of that there are a lot of "fake" cars out there from people trying to get big bucks for cars. I'd strongly recommend taking someone with you that knows midyears cars very well when you go look at the car. A local NCRS chapter or at least a local Vette Club may have someone willing to help you. It's way too easy to get scammed in todays market. Cars with documentation are always best but even documentation is being faked anymore.

Look at this recent thread here - and especially post #20: http://corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72927&page=2&pp=15

The two tags under the dash are the first things you want to look at and take a very detailed pic of. One is the Trim Tag, the other is the VIN tag. the 3rd picture in that post shows the motor stamp pad which is located on the front of the block on the passenger side next to the water pump. On the stamp pad the first grouping of numbers is the VIN dirivative and should match with the last 6 digits of the cars VIN#. The 2nd group of numbers on the stamp pad is the date code of the block and the the last two letters in that grouping (in this pic it's "HP") tells what motor and a few options that the car should match up to. On the car you are looking at for example, a '65 327/365hp, 4-speed, no A/C, the last two digits would be "HH"
The block casting numbers for that motor can be found on the back of the block by the bell housing on the drivers side - if you point a flashlight down by where the distributor is and look down you should see the casting # 3782870.

There are casting codes also on the Holley carb, intake, exhaust manifolds, radiator, heads (but you can't see the heads casting # unless you remove the valve covers), etc.

Again, I'd STRONGLY suggest taking someone that knows these cars with you when you go, but if you can't that at least write down everything from the trim tags, motor stamp pad, and any other numbers you can pull off the motor and post them back up here before you purchase the car and we can help you read those numbers so you know what the car has.

Depending on how original the car is, even the glass all has codes on it!

Was this a Ca. car it's whole life? These cars tend to have traveled a lot during thier various ownerships over the last 40 years. Not knowing the history of the car I'd still check the frame and birdcage carefully for rust.
On the frame, the area most typical for rust damage is the kick-up area right in front of the rear wheels.
The birdcage is a metal frame of the car around the cockpit area and is prone to rust problems. Most of the birdcage can't be seen ( the Trim and VIN tags under the glove box are mounted on one of the birdcage rails) but you can try to looks for "hints" of rust from the birdcage - I'd look for telltale signs of rust in the door jambs and along the windshield areas - If you see the paint bubbling up or popping out from rust behind it than chances are the birdcage will be needing repairs and it's not a fun or easy job as to make birdcage repairs the entire car must come completely apart.

The rear end could be a wide variety of gears - 3.55, 3.70, 4.11, 4.56. I don't think that they used a gearing taller than 3.55 on the 365hp cars but who knows what's changed on the car in 40 years....... Posi was an option so it could be a posi unit or a non-posi.

The most important advice I can offer is twofold:
1. take someone with you that knows Midyears or at least write down every single number you can and post them back up on here for us to help you. Pictures can go a long way to help us help you determine what the car has and it's value.

2. Buy any vette with your head, NOT your heart.
As you mentioned, it's very easy to get emotional when you go look at these cars and when you buy in that state it's easy to get scammed. Do NOT purchase the car until you look it over and get back to us on here and we can help you figure out about the car and what it really has or doesn't have.

good luck!

 

[BarryK]

Sean,

Regardless of the amount of technical information that will be coming your way through well intentioned Forum members, there is nothing that can compete with first hand experience. You could receive a book full of recommendations, but you still will be faced with what is considered a " get it right the first time " thing, and personally it's not something I would be comfortable with.

The BEST recommendation I could give you, would be to enlist the help of a knowledgeable Corvette person ( pay for the service if need be ) in the hobby, to go over the car with you, and point out all the items that may turn into issues, sometime down the line, if God forbid, you made the wrong choice.

Welcome to the Forum from all of us


Stepinwolf

I agree, I agree!!

 

[ctjackster]

to add to Barry's informative post, as you know there is a problem in this hobby with restamped engines - that's a problem because a good portion of a C2's market value, whether you agree with it or not, relates to an original engine ("numbers matching" was a way to confirm this fact before the scourge of restampers). A good way to smoke out a restamp is to have someone who knows what the stamp pad SHOULD look like have a look at it, you can even post a picture up here and we can torture it. On your own, you can cross-check a few things: as Barry said, the correct 65 small block casting number is 3782870, anything else is quite likely a NOM; also check the block casting date, this is the code that appears on the right, passenger side of the engine towards the rear (nearer the firewall) to the right of the distributor. It will be a letter (A thru L) followed by two or three numbers. Example: a casting date code of A125. (A=Jan, etc., so that would equate to a block casting date of Jan 12 1965). This date must, obviously, precede the date of engine assembly shown on the engine stamp pad, likely by one to four weeks.

Good luck, and all of this focus on numbers matching original engine does NOT mean there is anything wrong with buying a car that is NOM (Non Original Motor), in fact if honestly represented as such you should see a corresponding reduction in the selling price.

 

[neelfryer]

my 65 vert verification.....

Guys
you are amazing...I think I will take a lot of digital pictures and try to post them on the site so you all can scrutinize them. The odd thing about this car is that after months of looking at cars on the web and thru the vette trader and hemmings etc. I found this car a few miles from a weekend house that my wife and I have -- the owner lives (with the car) merely 3 miles form my house up there -- so I should probably down shift -- I was (I guess I stil am ) planning on showing up with a pocket full of green to make a deal -- I probably can put a deposit on the car as I go thru it -- asking questions and taking pictures -- I can then go to my house and post the pix and consider what I feel the overall value to be -- I agree with all of the posts you guys put up -- including the gentleman who said "there is value in a NOM car" I agree and I would still be a buyer if the car was straight and dry and unmolested -- I just want to pay a fair price -- I was far down the road on a 327/300 4 speed vert that was in Tennessee -- but it was such a hard car to get to for me -- the fact that this car is literally "in my back yard" is amazing -- I also feel like I can impress the owner (an aforementioned nice guy so far) with the fact that I live a few miles away and if he would be honest enough in disclosing all warts I will remain happy as I go thru the car with my brother -- my brother and I have just finished a 396 ss chevelle vert 1968 together -- we are a tiny bit upside down financially in that car but we had a good time working on it (paying for it I should say as neither of us had too much grease under the finger nails if you get my drift) -- I'm hoping my proximity to the sellers house keeps him honest -- he did mention that it is his business to "restore cars" -- he bought this car 3 years ago and it has been in southern cal for it's life apparently but we'll see -- it sounds like a driver quality car -- he says he and his wife drive it and that it doesn't smoke but might leak the occassional oil drip -- so I will continue to read what you guys post but -- O already can't thank you enough -- lastly -- my concerns about bringing someone to see the car with me is 2 fold -- 1 ...I don't want to bring a potentially interested professional into my deal making process and 2 -- I stupidly have an ego about..."I know enough about cars to do this by myself...." -- I will check throughout the day -- thank you -- thank you -- thank you -- sean

 

[BarryK]

take pics of everything, no matter how minor you think it may be.......

if the owner restores these cars than he probably knows enough to be dangerous and as you are uneducated Corvette purchaser (Not trying to be mean, just state a fact since you are smart enough to come on here and ask for help) it's easy to get fooled. PLENTY of very educated corvette buyers still get fooled and scammed all the time.

lastly -- my concerns about bringing someone to see the car with me is 2 fold -- 1 ...I don't want to bring a potentially interested professional into my deal making process and 2 -- I stupidly have an ego about..."I know enough about cars to do this by myself...." -- I will check throughout the day -- thank you -- thank you -- thank you -- sean

I wouldn't let ego interferre with finding someone to go look at the car with you! It's MUCH easier to bite your ego now and ask for help than deal with your ego after paying out a lot of $$$ on a car and you found out you missed something important. Not fun to say "I did it on my own" in a case like that.......
Also, people from a local NCRS chapter or local club that you may be able to find to go with you to look at the car are not just waiting to steal the car and buy it out from under you. Most of us enjoy helping others and enjoy going to look at cars even if we aren't buying them for ourselves.
As an example, last month there was a car about an hour from me that someone in Ca. was interested in. I offered to go check the car out for him and did. It's not about trying to buy the car out from under another interested buyer, it's about helping others find a good car and a fair price for any particular Vette.
When I was searching for my Vette I admitted I didn't know very much and while I was trying to learn as quickly as possible I still insisted on taking a buddy of mine that has owned many midyears to see any car i was seriously interested in. I knew I'd be in trouble buying a car without having him look it over first. Unless you really know these cars it's way too easy to miss important things you should look at and too easy to get scammed or fooled and at the price these cars are going for, I'd suggest putting your ego aside.

BTW, showing up with a pocketful of money when you go look at the car is a serious mistake I think! I delibertly made sure not to have any money on me when I was looking at cars - it's too easy to get emotional as soon as you see them and that money will leave your pocket way too fast. Give yourself the time to have to go back home to get it even just for a deposit - the drive back home again will give you time to calm down and think everything thru. Again, buy with your head, not your heart

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

If I was in the market today to purchase a HIGH dollar vette I would only be looking at car with recent documented flight judging from the NCRS.

Ummm, not sure about that statement. There's no part of NCRS flight judging that establishes whether or declares that a car is an 'original', or is just a very high quality clone, (midyear trim tags excepted). Excellent restamped engines judge the same as 'original' engines.

The goal of flight judging is perfecting the art of taking a car to a certain configuration representing typical factory production.

Best read the back of a flight certificate before proceeding.

 

[IH2LOSE]

Ummm, not sure about that statement. There's no part of NCRS flight judging that establishes whether or declares that a car is an 'original', or is just a very high quality clone, (midyear trim tags excepted). Excellent restamped engines judge the same as 'original' engines.

The goal of flight judging is perfecting the art of taking a car to a certain configuration representing typical factory production.

Best read the back of a flight certificate before proceeding.

As we all know there is NO WAY to tell what the original configeration of a midyear vette is any more,but we do have alot of ways to discredit what a car did not have when it left the factory .I feel the NCRS flight judging does a great job of that

That being said

The folks cloning them are almost as knowledgable as the Judges them selfs,Documentation is readely available you just have to open your pockets to pay for it. But with the NCRS Judging it eliminates the poorley Cloned cars,Allthough it doesnot authenticate a cars original engine or options (again I dont feel anything can any more) With my knowledge of what its been taking me to prepair my 1966 corvette over the last 3 years for flight judging,Reading the assembly manual,the Tecnical information manual,the judging refrence manual,the operations manual and pv guide.Speaking with NCRS judges and listening to there knowledge of stuff thats not even in the above manuals.

I personally hold a flight judged car in the highest regaurd as one that has been Restored or presents itself as it should when it left the factory .

I stand behind my statement in todays market. I would not purchase a high dollar vette with out a top flight ribbon or two.

Best of luck,

Allthough I dont have a ribbon or a certificate to read the back of I look foward to the day I can hang one or two of them in my home office to say that I was able to hit the marks with my restoration.

 

[firstgear]

can't add anything to what has been said.....except...aren't you my long lost brother????

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

I personally hold a flight judged car in the highest regaurd as one that has been Restored or presents itself as it should when it left the factory .

I stand behind my statement in todays market. I would not purchase a high dollar vette with out a top flight ribbon or two.

I know where you're coming from and agree that the NCRS standards are the highest that exist, but I've seen too many cars advertised and too many unsuspecting buyers assume that a certificate is a statement or guarantee of originality, and buy the car on the weight of that single piece of paper. A car can top flight and still have a non-original motor and be needing tens of thousands of dollars more work to make it 'perfect'.

Although there's lots of nice cars out there with a certificate or two, they represent only a fraction of the total number of really nice cars that exist. I'm always amazed at the amount of local cars that seem to come out of the woodwork each year. These are top quality original cars (Bowtie/Star material) as well as beautiful restored cars.

The most highly 'decorated' car in Canada belongs to the original owner that we ran into at a Dairy Queen several years ago. No easy task getting him to bring out his car to be judged, and his buddies that have equally nice cars don't want to know anything about a bunch of geeks pouring over their cars.

 

[motorman]

NCRS award corvettes

there is no reason to believe that these cars have the parts on them now that were there when they were judged. renting or borrowing the correct corvette parts for judging is wide spread in these circles. i would only spend BIG dollars if i were there for the judging and bought the car on the spot. just like buying winning race cars you never want it to leave your sight after the BIG win. the GOOD parts some how dissapear