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B2K question...

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Ned Sutton

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B2K ISSUE

Ned, your car is a nice car that is a prime example of how goofy this "system" can get... :W

Sharing with Reeves, your tale of getting your Callaway judged, he said how the heck would the NCRS even know what they were looking at without the support of the company? He was at the NCRS meet last month and told them tht they should be judging the cars without the code just as one with a code - the PAPERWORK is the key as you very well know :cool

Aside from a Direct Conversion car that was done few and far between (after the model year production was over), they were ALL built to the same standard off the same parts pick - list. This is actually a bit amusing that there would be this much debate by the judging body(s);shrug
I went to a NCRS meet last month also, the Rocky Mountain Regional in Denver Co. and entered the 87 Callaway, the head C-4 judge for all NCRS refused to judge my car as a real B2K and was not interested in looking at any documentation I had with me. When I told him that Bloomington Benchmarked my car last year he just smiled and walked away. My car was then judged as an 87 Corvette with deducts for all the callaway equipment, so second flight was the best it could do.
The story in Corvette Magazine in April publication had it winning a top flight at a Regional, but it was a top flight at a Chapter meet, when I noticed the mistake it had all ready went to the printer. The Rocky Mountain Chapter guys did take interest in my documentation and made the right decision by awarding the car a top flight. I have protested the decision with the C-4 judge and the NCRS top judging official.
Have not heard back from any of the NCRS people as of yet, will let everyone know when I do. Regards Chris, hope all is well. Ned
 

jonstr

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
413
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
I went to a NCRS meet last month also, the Rocky Mountain Regional in Denver Co. and entered the 87 Callaway, the head C-4 judge for all NCRS refused to judge my car as a real B2K and was not interested in looking at any documentation I had with me. When I told him that Bloomington Benchmarked my car last year he just smiled and walked away. My car was then judged as an 87 Corvette with deducts for all the callaway equipment, so second flight was the best it could do.
The story in Corvette Magazine in April publication had it winning a top flight at a Regional, but it was a top flight at a Chapter meet, when I noticed the mistake it had all ready went to the printer. The Rocky Mountain Chapter guys did take interest in my documentation and made the right decision by awarding the car a top flight. I have protested the decision with the C-4 judge and the NCRS top judging official.
Have not heard back from any of the NCRS people as of yet, will let everyone know when I do. Regards Chris, hope all is well. Ned

Best of luck with your appeal (I assume you mean you appealed it to Roy Sinor, the national judging chairman). The burden of proof always lies with the owner, and the fact that your documentation was totally ignored is inappropriate, in my opinion (which probably doesn't count for much, really).

They won't reverse the decision already made, but a written response from Roy would go a long way to saving you the hassle next time, not to mention educating the 1984-1989 team leader who gave you trouble. Plus, getting them to write a supplement to the manual will further serve to educate judges going forward.

Your experience highlights one of my biggest frustrations with the NCRS, and why I've kind of gotten away from in the last couple years. I took my '69 L88 car through the Duntov process and ran into several situations along the way where the on-site judges seem to think they know more than everyone else and therefore can make any kind of judging decision they want. My favorite story is from a Regional meet where the judge deducted points for reproduction tires. When I asked him why he thought they were repros, he said "they have to be". When I politely reminded him that the book says he has to say specifically what marking or anomoly shows them to be repros, he got really angry. Fortunately, the national team lead was in attendance and he and several others came over and determined that my tires were indeed original. The judge had apparently never actually seen an original set of tires before. Had the team lead not been there, I would have been SOL. The funny part is that, at the time, I had no idea they were originals, I was bluffing.

Regarding documentation, the doc you have that satisfies one judge, may be rejected by the next - and there is virtually nothing you can do about it at the time. You can escalate to the lead judge at the meet, and then to the national team lead and even national judging chairman - but only if they are in attendance. If they're not, it all has to happen AFTER the meet, and by then it is too late.
 

*89x2*

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Feb 18, 2002
Messages
10,357
Location
CallawayOwnersGroup.com
Keep the faith

Your experience highlights one of my biggest frustrations with the NCRS, and why I've kind of gotten away from in the last couple years. I took my '69 L88 car through the Duntov process and ran into several situations along the way where the on-site judges seem to think they know more than everyone else and therefore can make any kind of judging decision they want. My favorite story is from a Regional meet where the judge deducted points for reproduction tires. When I asked him why he thought they were repros, he said "they have to be". When I politely reminded him that the book says he has to say specifically what marking or anomoly shows them to be repros, he got really angry. Fortunately, the national team lead was in attendance and he and several others came over and determined that my tires were indeed original. The judge had apparently never actually seen an original set of tires before. Had the team lead not been there, I would have been SOL. The funny part is that, at the time, I had no idea they were originals, I was bluffing.

Jon, that is terrible that rather than admit they do not know, they claim they are the SME on the matter and attempted to bluff :eyerole

Ned, I am (still) in the process of rewriting the 1987-1991 manuals for the B2K sections. Talking with the key Callaway Staff last week on the matter, once my notes are down it will go to them for final review of accuracy.
Once that is done, it will be presented to the NCRS where they can go along with history as it was, or not.

I have written several letters vouching for cars based upon facts that the manual got wrong. They HAVE been recognized to this point and I would expect them to be so in the future. I will not write about something I do not know. Guesses do not belong in a judging arena :cool

I hope this helps everyone out there :beer :v
 

kingforward

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Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Messages
124
Location
pittsburgh
Jon, that is terrible that rather than admit they do not know, they claim they are the SME on the matter and attempted to bluff :eyerole

Ned, I am (still) in the process of rewriting the 1987-1991 manuals for the B2K sections. Talking with the key Callaway Staff last week on the matter, once my notes are down it will go to them for final review of accuracy.
Once that is done, it will be presented to the NCRS where they can go along with history as it was, or not.

I have written several letters vouching for cars based upon facts that the manual got wrong. They HAVE been recognized to this point and I would expect them to be so in the future. I will not write about something I do not know. Guesses do not belong in a judging arena :cool

I hope this helps everyone out there :beer :v
Chris......another headsup for your manuals. I have a '91 CTTC that was bought by a UK citizen at Malcom Konner off the lot and sent to Callaway for conversion and then shipped to the UK. The car was never a B2K, however, Callaway insisted then in their buying guide that they do specific conversions to tune the engines to the specific country when exported. In other words, they would not allow a B2K for export and wrote it in bold.

More CTTC info to spin the judge's heads!
 

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