Bob Lutz on C6

[Tom Bryant]

When Corvette finished first overall at Daytone it wasn't because Chrysler pulled the plug on Viper racing or that GM whined to get rule changes that held back the Vipers. Not only did Team Corvette outperform the Vipers but they outperformed everyone else too. Even the prototypes.

Tom

 

[Edmond]

Why is GM so hush hush about the Corvette while Dodge is releasing specs on a car that is more than a year away?

Is GM always holding back in the attempt to surprise people or what?

 

[Viper 10]

The point is that it's basically healthy discussion and a disagreement of opinions. I don't see personal attacking going on...yet.

However, with that said, there is one thing I do need to chime in on and that is :


Brad....I'm not sure I can agree with that statement. The C5-R was no contest to the Viper when it first started racing because the car was brand new, they didn't have the experience of racing behind them like the Viper team did and they didn't have the displacement. Each year the C5-R got better and better and although they didn't win over the Vipers until the (correct me if I'm wrong) last race, before Chrylser pulled the plug on the Viper's racing campaign. They did hold their own against the Vipers.
I wouldn't exactly call that "kicking the living crap out of the Goodwrench team". Just my opinion...

Rob:

You are correct about the learning curve for the C5-R team (by the way they had excellant drivers that knew Le Mans).

The points that I was making without going into too much detail was that the Corvette started racing with their factory configured displacement and could not be even closely competitive (meaning within striking distance of a podium finish). They also had some real problems with brakes. What they did throughout the first season was to protest and complain about the Viper's dominance. The next season, they ran a 427 that is not even offered on factory cars (which is essentially a bored and stroked 350 LT-6). At one point there was a requirement that all of the GT cars run an engine configuration that is offered on a factory vehicle, and the 427 is not offered anywhere in the GM stable (including the C5). The result of their continuous protests resulted in twice reducing the intake (to half of the size of a stock factory Viper), dramatic reduction in tire sizes and 3 different weight penalties. By the way(as a side note) Trans Am Racing Series has banned Vipers from running a V-10. Archer is running a V-8 in his Snake.

Any way that you look at it, the playing field was evened in interestin way. Rather than refining and improving their program, GM resorted to having to lower the bar. Don't believe for a minute, that Dodge pulled out of GTS racing because of the moderate success of the Goodwrench Team. What happened is that Oreca's charter was diverted to running the Chrysler LMP team with all of the drivers and crew from their Viper team. Dodge had no other team to run the GTS effort.

I hope that this fills in some of the gaps in my statements.

Have a good day.

Brad

PS: The Vipers not only won 3 consequetive Le Mans Daytonas and Sebrings, but they did them all 1-2-3.

 

[Ken]

I guess my point earlier was that this subject, be it Corvette vs. Viper, or Corvette vs. Saleen (Mustang? :L), or Vette vs. whatever, has no end, nor will it ever have an end. Which I guess, is good. :gap

This is from the "Front Lines" in the January 2002 issue of Vette Magazine:

THREE-WAY TRAFFIC
vis-a-vis THE SALEEN S7.R
(Editors note: The following letter was e-mailed by Vincent L. Jacovetty to Team Saleen and Cc'd to Vette Magazine. The response was e-mailed from Team Saleen to Mr. Jacovetty and again Cc'd to Vette. We, of course, have added our two cents worth.)

Dear Mr. Saleen,

Why dont you put the S7-R in the class it belongs? Maybe it is because you know you will get your A** handed to you. So you have managed to twice beat a car, based on a $55,000 production car, with a car that will cost three to four times as much--if you ever actually produce one for the street. Quite a feat!

Sincerly,
Vincent L. Jacovetty

Mr. Jacovetty;

Thank you for your message. If I may respond on behalf of Mr. Saleen as he has not returned from the latest race at Laguna Seca, we do consider our wins a great feat as the GM Corvette team has been working quite hard for the last three years and spent tens of millions of dollars to accomplish their wins. But I am afraid your perception of the vehicle campaigned by GM as a Corvette is not exactly manufacrured for $55,000, or anything close to that number.

As I am sure Mr. Fehan will attest, as he did so at a press conference at Le Mans, their vehicles (Editor's note: "Mr. Fehan" is Doug Fehan of GM Racing. "Their vehicles" references the factory-backed, Pratt & Miller-engineered and constructed C5-Rs) cost millions of dollars to build and test and that, in fact, Saleen has manufactured more S7 street and race versions than GM has produced of their cars.

We are proud of the accomplishments of the S7 customer teams that have campaigned the cars this year and, we at Saleen feel that GM certainly deserves their championship this year. They have brought not only a great race car, but a very dass act to the American Le Mans Series. We can only hope that we can attain such success some day with our limited resources.

Liz Summar
Director, Team Saleen
Irvine, California

Hey, this is getting interesting!

There are a couple facts that Ms. Summar chooses to overlook in this matter. First and foremost, the GTS class in the American Le Mans Series is for race cars based on road-going production automobiles. To date (to the best of our knowledge), there are no road-going production Saleen S7s. One street-equipped S7 has been seen on public display, we have yet to see two or more street versions together, at the same time and place, and as far as we know, there has not yet been a single S7 road test or driving impression in any major or specialty or niche automotive publications. What are the folks at Saleen afraid of? At this time, a year after the S7 was introduced with great fanfare during the Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance and Monterey historical races, it is not a production car--unless you count building a handful of race cars as production--and where are the road-going versions? The big lie is that the S7-R is competing in a class for production-based race cars, yet it is based on a production car that has never been produced! No one has ever claimed that you could buy a C5-R (or, for that matter, a Viper GTS-R) from your local dealership. And no one has ever claimed that a C5-R could be had for $55,000. The C5-R (and the Viper GTS-R) are, however, based on and built from production street-legal road-going automobiles, street automobiles that came well before competition versions, and automobiles that were and are readily available to the general public.

The fact that Sateen has manufactured more S7-Rs than GM has C5-Rs means only that GM and Pratt & Miller are not currently selling race cars to the public. GM has sold approximately 140,000 C5 Corvettes since the model was introduced in 1997, which exceeds the volume of street-legal and road-going Saleen S7s by... approximately 140,000 units. And most of these have "stickered" for well under $55,000.

Until and unless Saleen makes the S7 available as a street-legal road car, we'll continue to rail against its classification as a "production" car, rather than as a prototype, for racing purposes.

_ken

 

[Bullitt]

Racing, Germans and competition

Wow, this post is burning it up! Now, it's my turn. Let me first say that I like the design and purpose of the GTS Viper. I dream of the day of a modern day 427 Corvette. However, I'm a bit tired of the way the German Daimler guys have been treated. They didn't put a gun to anyone's head and demand control. It was a buyout, fair and square. That was until a few million dollar heads faced pink slips. The Germans don't take nonsense, PERIOD! No fat, no fluff and no bulls**t. If a few million dollar salaried CEOs thought they were going to continue to exist in a company where their German counterpart makes significantly less, then perhaps they're not as smart as their wages suggest. I'm pretty sure that they will still be able to feed their family. :eyerole Anyone who buys a Chrysler in the coming years will be glad that Daimler spent their money on quality and addressed customer complaints.

At one point there was a requirement that all of the GT cars run an engine configuration that is offered on a factory vehicle, and the 427 is not offered anywhere in the GM stable (including the C5).

Oh my God! Engines (427) and cars (Saleen) not being mass produced and they're allowed to race! Rule bending! Blasphemy....YEAH, RIGHT! I would think that the great, late Enzo Ferrari is laughing at those thoughts still. Surely, I would hope that no one who follows road racing and endurance racing would find this the "norm." If rules were not bent, we would have never had the classic 250 GTO. It's time Viper and Corvette guys realized how much they owe to this race car for it's design. History has taught us that competitive racing will still exist, no matter what happens. If Steve Saleen can make a car to beat GM and follow his dreams, than by all means I hope he does. There is no excuse why a sponsored factory team and their supporters complain about a "little guy." Heaven forbid if Panoz wins consistently! Ford die-hards are always pointing out that only Father Ford was able to beat Ferrari with the GT-40. With all the damn money they had, not to mention Gurney and Foyt, they better had. Ford was never dominant against Ferrari, they had to fight the Italians tooth and nail. They left when the rules changed, but Ferrari continued till Enzo Ferrari decided that Formula 1 demanded complete attention.

Dodge had no other team to run the GTS effort.

:L :L :L I wonder how many teams would have loved to gotten factory support and financing? There are racers that can barely make it as it is. The fact remains that the Big Three use racing for advertisement and not for the love of racing. What American manufacturers need to worry about is the fact that Porsche might decide to return to beat everyone. When they go all out factory racing, it is to WIN and WIN and then WIN some more. Chrysler, GM or Ford wouldn't stand a chance. Take all the wins of American manufaturers in roadracing and compare it to just Porsche or Ferrari. There is no comparison. Racing should not be considered a sport, a hobby nor ever should be. It is a way of life. --Bullitt

Racing is life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting. --Steve McQueen, Lemans

 

[Maxwedge]

Actually Bullitt your quite wrong on the "They didn't put a gun to anyones head, it was a buyout".
What it was...
Daimlers Stock was worth More per unit than Chryslers(like 3x more) to combine the stocks they had to liquidate all of them. Value of a stock is based largely on perception not actually earnings. Chrysler CEO Bob Eaton forced Jergan Schrempp(in Bob ONLY good move in the negotiations) to even the stocks out in value by paying the Chrysler stockholders the difference ALONG with getting a equal percentage of stock in the new company.
The "Buy out" wasn't really a buyout. Mearly making things even. The Germans(thanks to Bob Eaton and several BAD BAD moves) basically took over by. 1) Making the company a German AG(the german form of INCorperating) 2)Moving the Headquarters to Germany 3) Bob Lutz who was the only American exec who spoke German and was the only one with ANY knowledge on the typical german line of thought(due to Bob Lutz 10 Years as an exec with BMW). Bob Lutz was also the ONLY American that spoke German.. Lutz was forced out of the negotiations By Bob Eaton due to Eaton feeling the Lutz got too much credit with Chrysler turn around in the early 90s and even at that moment Eaton was largly ignored by the press. So Eaton wanted to take credit for the largest merger in History...well he shot himself in the foot it appears...
4)now for the big mistake..Bob Eaton and Jergan were supposed to be CO-CEOs..well after a few months of this arrangement Bob Eaton tendered his retirement for sometime in 99(one year later) effectively making him a lame duck and setting the power structure to lean heavily towards the Germans.
5)Since the germans have taken power Chrysler hasn't released one fresh design and havent done one thing out of the ordinary except run the company deeper into the ground. Life is MUCH different for the Germans who were used to having 3 competitors, in a high markup environment as opposed to Chrysler that has 17+ competitors in a low markup environment. Not a single release from Chrysler since the german takeover has been anything more than a "refinement" of an existing style. The New Ram is a play on the old theme, the same for the Neon, Stratus, Viper, etc etc. We will be lucky to get even 1 new prototype this year. Last year all we got was 1 PT Crusier convertable..big deal.
as far as Viper engine quality...when you compare it to Ferrari, lambo, Porsche, Vett, all the others..I would dare say that you can expect 90% of the Viper motors to get 100,000 miles on it with no sweat. Try finding a Ferrari or Porsche making 450bhp that does that without a Major engine rebuild HHMMMMM...bet you cant find many..
as far as GM learning curve..The Vipers 2nd year out they finished 1-2-3 and they did it with less than half the money GM dumped in the Vett. The Viper was also MUCH close to the stock car than the GM by a LONG shot..
Damion
PS
On a non related topic..Bullitt I AGREE with you on the 3.60 rear end gear option and the elimination of usless gadgets along with (and especially) RADIO DELETE...I think the original Z06 cars "came" with this option(came is relative due to "getting it" mean your loosing something)..
Make the Z06 a race car that passes emmisions...only cause it has too...LOL

 

[Viper 10]

Damion:

You forgot to mention a key reason for the merger...
- Daimler was on the verge of bankruptcy because they were mired in debt.
- Chrysler was very cash rich, with relatively low debt.

Take a look atthe Chrysler product line and see what technology or quality has come from Germany, and you will be hard pressed to find anything. When you look at what Daimler took from Chrysler, it is a whole different story because they robbed the cupboards bare.

I wouldn't give the Germans credit for anything, except ruining a good business model for automotive comebacks. They took a perfectly good company that was teaching the other two of the Big 3 how business could be done in the new millineum. Bob Lutz was instrumental in Chrysler's success. I hope that he has the same impact on GM.

I also hope that the rumors of Chrysler going indepenedent again are true.

 

[Bullitt]

I think it's premature to say that the merger is not successful. Second, as is pointed out, people in the Chrysler organization are of equal, if not more to blame for the power struggle. I constantly hear among the Wall Street crowd how everything is cutthroat and deals are a form of "battle." Yet, when something goes wrong, it's the lawyers who run in with lawsuits to stop the fight and wipe everyone's noses. It's hard to feel sorry for people who fight among themselves and ending up losing more than they would've had they stayed together. So, I really don't feel any sorrow for the Chrysler CEOs. If you put yourself in a corner, don't be mad when you're stuck there. A similar scenario is being played out with Enron suing Dynergy, by blaming them for the collapse instead of looking at themselves.

Not a single release from Chrysler since the German takeover has been anything more than a "refinement" of an existing style.

Surely, it is known how the Germans, Austrians and Japanese do buisness when it comes to automotive development. Take one look at the Mercedes Benz history of car evolution, and their techniques are clear as day. Refinement, refinement and more refinement. I don't think this is a bad thing, but drastic changes do suffer. To think that anything more would happen in a shorter amount of time, is to ignore how the Daimler corporation is run. When one of the entities has taken control of the driver's seat, don't be surprised by the destination.

Try finding a Ferrari or Porsche making 450bhp that does that without a Major engine rebuild HHMMMMM...bet you cant find many..

First, I never lambasted the Viper's engine quality, just for the record. Second, we can argue the obvious, but what is fact, is that we are talking about different customers who treat their cars in different ways. I think one of the biggest mistakes Ferrari or Porsche owners can make is the decision to buy their cars as an investment. "Drive the damn car!", as was said in the great movie GRAND PRIX. Third, I have to be honest and say I have never heard of a Ferrari possess very high mileage. I'll do some research, but it misses an important point. Ferraris are still made by hand. Yes, they did finally incorporate a production line to somewhat modern standards in the '80s and have made appriopiate updates through the years. In large though, you're talking about a factory that still houses their Formula 1 racing programme behind the same stone walls as their road cars. A factory that still uses their own race track across the street. A factory who still contracts work out to Pininfarina, who together have shared one of the most illustratous partnerships in the buisness world. A factory that builds and developes their own engines, transmissions and suspensions. In essence, despite the pass of time, a factory that pales in comparison to the size of GM, Chrysler, Ford, Honda, Mercedes, BMW and on and on. Still, they maintain perhaps the most recognizable symbol in the world, the Prancing Horse emblem. When you see a Ferrari, you know exactly what you are looking at. If I was put into a position that would have me choose only one car in my whole life, it would be a Ferrari. Don't get me wrong, I love my Corvette and would like to own and experience many different cars. I bleed FERRARI RED, though. You can judge me as insane, but it was my first passion, and I cannot deny it.

as far as GM learning curve..The Vipers 2nd year out they finished 1-2-3 and they did it with less than half the money GM dumped in the Vett. The Viper was also MUCH close to the stock car than the GM by a LONG shot

I agree with this statement, but would like to point out that the Viper was a considerable leap in the power advancement in the current car market, at that time. With 10 cylinders, it does have quite the performance advantage. However, racing is racing and certain things have happened before. I don't want to deminish the Viper's acheivements, but other teams have shown similar domination in the past of endurance racing.

In closing Damion, I know we can agree and disagree on different topics, this is the freedom we are entitled to. I would also like to hear anymore suggestions on the C6. So please post any other things that I may have overlooked in the C6 Performance Goal post. Thanks for sharing and expanding on these topics. --Bullitt

 

[Viper 10]

Bullitt:

"In large though, you're talking about a factory that still houses their Formula 1 racing programme behind the same stone walls as their road cars. A factory that still uses their own race track across the street".

Your statement only applies to the 550's and the F's which are built in Maranello. The 3's are built in the same plants that made the 308, which is a Fiat plant. Your comparison the Big 3's versus ferrari is not acurate. It is not poor little Ferrari against the Big 3, it is poor little Fiat (which bought Ferrari when it was on the verge of bankruptcy). The ultimate slap in the face to Enzo is that Fiat also owns Lamborghini (which would cause him to rollover in his grave).

As much as you would like to place blame on the American management team at Chrysler for their woes (so as to not tarnish the German management mystique'), but I will also beg to differ with you here because almost the entire senior management team that took Chrysler to the success that they achieveed in the '90s is virtually gone. This is probably why we are seeing a huge design void at Chrysler (which is still living on designs that came from the pre-merger Chrysler). The DC designs have adopted many of the Chrysler design trends (look at the flag ship S Classes and you will see an amazing similarities to the Intrepids and 300M designs).

If you are a true Ferrari afficionado, you will remember the days when Enzo swore that he would never have a car of his that had anything less than a 12 cylinder powerplant in it. Yet because of economics, he built V-8's that still are firmly embedded in their product line. How would you compare the hand built quality of a Ferrari to American hand built Vipers? Hard to compare a car that was built to be looked at, to a car that was built to be driven?

It seems that you love Ferrari's for the marketing mystique that they have created over the years. I personally love Ferrari from days gone by like the GTO's, the early Torpedo fendered Testatrossa's when Ferrari's were driven and raced by their owners. Today Ferrari has evolved to an almost cult-like following group of owners and fans. When was the last time that you remember Ferrari being competitive in the sports car series' and Le Mans (their 360's and 550's have been relegated to the Challenge Cup series with other slow and un-reliable Ferrari's)? It's been a very long time (Ferrari has not been competitive since the '60s).

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

Brad

 

[Bullitt]

I never suggestd poor little Ferrari, Brad. What I do suggest is that despite their size, they still build and continue to build some of the greatest cars in the world. Though they do not compete in factory backed endurance racing nowadays, their F1 success is undisputed. Some will bad-mouth Formula 1 and say it is far removed from anything else. What no one should dispute, that it is the most technological and advanced form of motorsport anywhere in the world. Ferrari has lead the way for quite sometime. As far as being caught up in the mystique, perhaps you didn't read my quoting of the movie GRAND PRIX, when it was said, "Drive the damn car!" Again, I point out where some Ferrari owners make a mistake to just "look at" the cars. So to say I'm the same way, is a obvious mistake. Second, you have made the argument of not comparing the C5 and the Viper, because of the former's GT platform. You have also said this about Ferrari's and Porsches, so why lambast them now, for what you admit are two different types of cars?

You point out Fiat ownership, that happened back in the sixties, Yet, Ferrari has still been able to keep it's identity in large part to Enzo's way of doing things and the way he built Ferrari's power structure. It happened because Massissmo Ferrari, had deep feelings for his car. Cars that were born of racing, to support his racing exploits. The early road Ferraris were built for that purpose. I'm not an afficionando, because that word is not strong enough. It's something more. The reason I love Ferrari, is mostly because the name, reputation, car build and racing success clearly shows that it is more of a priority with them, than any other car maker in the world. And as far as comparisions go, the Ferrari is no "plastic fantastic!" It's hard to look at the Viper and not draw similarites to the Cobra Daytona and the Ferrari GTO. Aghast, Ferrari influence?

When was the last time that you remember Ferrari being competitive in the sports car series' and Le Mans (their 360's and 550's have been relegated to the Challenge Cup series with other slow and un-reliable Ferrari's)? It's been a very long time (Ferrari has not been competitive since the '60s).

Yes, it has been quite sometime since a factory effort has been launched. Enzo Ferrari, decided that Formula 1 needed complete attention and support. What was sacrificed was the endurance car efforts. It was a decision that while it made sense, I struggle with. To Ferrari's credit however, they are still in Formula 1, not just to leave and say, "we accomplished enough." In FIA GT, the 360s and the 550 Maranello GTOs driven by independant teams, do face competition with Porsches, Lister Storms and Vipers. Prodrive has had the most success, building a car in a relative short time and taking decisive wins. They were also able to take track records in the process, which were formerly owned by Vipers. Though, Ferrari, has made the decision to not lend factory support, I would hope that the financing in sponsorship dollars can be attained by Prodrive, to show the factory how sucessful the car can be. Prodrive have won Rally Championships, so hopefully this level can be translated to the 550 Maranello GTO. Despite the fact that Ferrari has been gone from endurance racing for sometime now, along with Porsche's absence, neither of the Big Three have been able to duplicate that history, not in just one category, but in an overall picture.

Chrysler has suffered through voids before. They have never been at the constant forefront, changing the automotive world. The past success in the '90s, is almost a contradiction to the way things were usually done. The only difference now, is the fact that Daimler is in charge. Even before the merger, Chrysler still had quality control problems with many of their cars. They are by no means the model of which the world should follow, in this respect. GM and to a lesser extent Ford, experience these problems, too. I'll try to find a link to the study, but it was found that through their own manufaturer records, that the larger cars builders, American and some Eastern, suffer a recall rate 25% higher than in the past. This is based on the companies own service and recall records, not figures pulled out from thin air. Surely, if Chrysler sees a decrease in this instance, it would be an improvement.

Lastly, whether they are Germans or Americans, the people to blame for the infighting at Chrysler are within themselves. As Damion pointed out, Bob Eaton shoved out Bob Lutz (a former BMW executive) and afterwards, made some very bad moves. Perhaps, the power structure would be different if not for this. This seems to be common though, in this type of enviroment. A little Napoleon complex and all the power is sacrificed. Despite an inflated salary, idiots are idiots. Also, the discrepancy between similar American vs. German CEO salaries in the same company, is not in dispute.


--Bullitt

As a side note, I would like to make the following comments as an observation in whole and not directed to just any one person or groups of. The inflation of salaries I believe, has no good excuse. It becomes more commonplace with each passing year. It happens in almost every aspect of American buisness. Take away the salaries and strip off the suit, to realize that a man is still a man. He will make dumb moves or smart ones. Will either look behind himself to place blame, in the abscence of a better excuse or raise his hand to say, "It was my fault." It does not matter where he is from, how much money he makes, what clothes he wears, or what he does. The value comes from his actions that are borne forth from his experiences and the level of his humbleness. This is the measure of a man. Some fall short, some barely make it and some rise above their peers. History will judge for itself eventually, but excuses are in the end, are just that.

 

[Viper 10]

Bullitt;

As much as I love this discussion, aren't we a little off track from the original thread. We should carry this discussion on under an other cars topic.

I will say that Ferrari's current string of wins has to do more with their choice of fuel management/traction control systems than anything else. If you remember that when Shumacher came to Ferrari he could not get a podium (much less a win) to save his life. That was because the Italians were hell bent on using all Italian developed (or at worse case Euro developed) systems. When they made the conversion to the same system that Shumacher had previousely used (which by the way was and is illegal as heck) marked the day that Ferrari re-established itself.

I just thought that this would get a kick out of something that is not publicly known. The reason that I know this first hand is that a good friend of mine is a very high technical resource at this fuel management/traction control company that supported Ferrari and others in the F1 world. Those who have the most money, wins...

Have a good day.

Brad

 

[Bullitt]

In Formula 1, rules' bending is a fun pastime. Do you remember McLaren's "third pedal?" This is racing however, as Roger Penske will tell you with the example of the Sunoco Trans Am Camaro. As far as the most money, Ferrari trails the BMW/Williams team and is almost even with McLaren. BMW had, by everyone's agreeable consensus, the most advanced and affective traction control system this year. If the system was in affect so effectively at Ferrari as is suggested, when traction control was banned, why the years of defeat to Williams and McLaren?

Also, Michael lost the title to Damon Hill, but battled to the end with Jacques, when he made an unfortunate decision in Japan. He had to learn from it the hard way and the next year, battled with Mika Hakkinen again to the end in Japan. A flat tire was the end of it. More hardship. In '99, career threatening injuries sidelined him. Then Irvine, coming close to almost snag the Driver's Championship. They did bring the Manufaturer's Championship home, though. Schumacher is a great driver, no matter the detractors argument. I didn't like his style for quite sometime, but his character that has been developed over the past few years, tells of his place in history. To see him in Spa, where big horsepower is favored (BMW), and to win so decisively is a testament to that. Schumacher's place is solidified in F1 history, sour grapes withstanding.

I also agree that perhaps this subject belongs somewhere else, but it sure has been fun. I like the debating, it makes for great discussion and thought. Thanks everyone. I knew that the CACC was good, but that believe is reinforced by these past posts. Like I said before elsewhere, a healthy debate is the cornerstone to understanding. Once again a sincere, "thank you." --Bullitt