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(C4)Filters: Green vs K&N

Hib Halverson

Technical Writer for Internet & Print Media
Joined
Jan 10, 2001
Messages
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The question posed on the Callaway Forum by CAC member "Jeroenvgfn" was not really a question specific to Callaway's cars. Its answer affects the owner of any C4--or any Corvette for that matter--interested in aftermarket, oiled-cotton air filters. Specifically, his question was about why Callaway chose to change vendors for its air filters.
`green filters are definitely the best.

I use then on all my cars for a long time now.

any idea why changed to K&N ? price issue ?

"Jeroenvgfn" asks a great question . The thread languished, unanswered, on the Callaway Forum for months and there is no excuse for that. There's little doubt in my mind that the switch from Green to K&N is because of a "price issue". That's the only reason a vendor would change from a great product, such as the "Green Filter", to just an "average" product, such as the "K&N FilterCharger".

One advantage K&N has, due to its large size in comparison to Green Filter USA, its market share and because it uses an inferior design that's less-expensive to manufacture, is it can go to volume retailers, such as Callaway Cars, then convince them to buy filters for less which they can turn around and sell at the same price and know that their customers are getting a filter that is "good enough". From the retailer's perspective, that's a wise business model because it increases the margin on the product. From the user's perspective, it might not be so wise.

The differences between a Green Filter and the K&N are several, but the ones which are key to filtering performance and airflow are the ones Corvetters need to understand.

Yes, the two products share a key feature, the oiled-cotton filter media, but that's where the similarities end. As the Green is a newer design, it has some quality and performance enhancements which K&N has either chosen not or is unable to adopt. Why has K&N not kept up with current technology? Perhaps, since it has the lion's share of the market; it may see no advantage in updating its technology.

Green's filtering media is woven cotton rather than the cotton gauze used by K&N. Put a golf shirt next to a gauze bandage, examine and feel the two materials and you'll better understand that key difference. The benefits of woven cotton are: it's thinner, holds oil better and is stronger. Green Filter's cross-weaving one fine and one medium layer of cotton produces a fabric that is thinner and stronger than K&N's gauze but still has the ability to trap dirt particles of as little as 5 microns in size. That means, for a given level of filtering and filter size, a Green may flow more air than a K&N. Is this important? It can be if the filter you use it near its limit as to air flow and going to a larger filter is not an option. Woven cotton holds filter oil more consistently. Woven cotton is stronger than gauze. Unlike gauze, you can't wear a hole in woven cotton by rubbing it. Lastly, there is no way small bits of cotton can rip off since the woven cotton threads are interlocked with each other.

Some other filters, K&N included, use a simple, pressure-molded, injection process to bond the perimeter rubber to the filter's interior components. That method saves manufacturing time, but in the process, rubber can seep onto the filtering surface. When the filter rubber bleeds onto the filter media, not only does it have the look of shoddy construction, it can restrict airflow as much as 25%. Green Filter USA uses a more time-consuming and expensive, four-step manufacturing process which virtually eliminates seepage and insures maximum airflow through the filter. Green chose that method because it produces a higher-quality and better-performing product.

There are other differences and, if you're interested in the techie details, you can find more information at www.greeenfilterusa.com

Clearly the Green Filter is a superior product and that's why I moved all my engines in the five of the cars (three Vettes and two other Chevrolets) my Wife and I own to Green Filters starting several years ago. It's why "Jeroenvgfn" uses them. It's why tens of thousands of other performance air filter buyers have kicked the K&N habit and gone Green. It's, also, why I believe Callaway Cars ought to go back to using them.
 
Hib,

As far as your comparison of K&N and Green filters: Thank you very much for an astute and detailed (like always from you!) explanation. I have used K&N filters for years but I have not studied the differences. I also do not own the amount of vehicles you do. I will now seriously consider upgrading to a better filter!
 
Hal, I read your thread with great interest. I have heard the pros and cons about K&N filters due to the oil in the media being released into the engine if it is not properly dried. As I understand it. the K&N takes about 12 hours to dry after oil treatment. That's okay with me as I can drive my other vette or other car. After reviewing the facts about K&N, I recently installed one into the 94 vert and it has been running great, albeit that I only put about 3K miles on each vette each year, unless I take a trip to CF (Cleveland). I still have concerns about the K&N and these concerns may be aleviated if I install a Green Filter. I assume that the Green filter goes directly into the filter box on the C4 without modification, (although I did purchase the open top filter box from MAMW to facilitate air flow). I also assume that the oil that K&N uses is also acceptable for the Green Filter. Does it have the same problem of soaking up too much oil that will subsequently be released into the engine? Visiting the Green Filter site, I find that in Colorado that the only retail source is Co Springs, so I would have to mail order mine, or pick one up when next in the Springs. Is it your opinion, based on your experience with the Green Filters in your fleet that it performs better than K&N, the same, and is it safer to use due to the technology and manufacture methods.
I am glad that you posted this in the CAC once it was deleted; I hope some more discussion occurs from this thread. Thanks again for all your input into CAC - I really do appreciate it.
Barrett
 
Hib, Very informative on both the forum and air filter technology front. I'm not a fan of oiled air filters, but this technology appears to have advantages over the K&N who find they benefit from the extra air flow over paper.

Interesting testimonial http://www.greenfilterusa.com/testimonials.html

"I purchased a green air filter towards the end of febuary, and have had it on my car since. I own a 2002 vw gti 1.8 t. Aftermarket air filters are notorious for destroying the Mass air Flow sensor on these cars, but yours has not, which is why I chose to purchase it to begin with. It is the only modification I have done to the car, it is a standard drop in air filter..."
 
all these type air filter allow in more dirt than a paper filter. the new truck dealers are instructed to check the turbo charger impeller on diesels for a "polished" look which means the dirt going thru the oiled mash type air filters. since a diesel engine run wide open all the time and the RPM is controlled by the fuel flow a lot of dirt goes thru filter and the dealers are instructed to void the warranty if this is the case. any filter that does not "plug up" means the dirt is passing thru not being stopped by the filter material.
 
link doesnt work mis spelled-however, I cant find ANY year vette filters from 84-2008 in their search engine!

http://www.greenfilterusa.com/

If I misspelled the URL, I apologize. As for Green offerings, I have Green Filters in my 71 Cpe, my 95 ZR1 and my 04 Z06. I'm on a road trip right now without access to my Green Filter application data so I don't have PNs.

A question was asked about the filter oiling process. It doesn't matter what brand of oiled-cotton filter you have. Be it a K&N, Green, Airaid or whatever, if you "over-oil" the filter after cleaning, you'll have trouble. That said, I use Greens in three engines with MAFs, the LS6 in my C5 C, the L36 in my 01 Camaro and the 2.4 in our 07 HHR and, so far, because I reoil them per the mfg's instructions, I've never had trouble with any DTCs due to MAFs getting oil in them. The other applications where I use Greens don't have MAFs.
 
all these type air filter allow in more dirt than a paper filter. the new truck dealers are instructed to check the turbo charger impeller on diesels for a "polished" look which means the dirt going thru the oiled mash type air filters. since a diesel engine run wide open all the time and the RPM is controlled by the fuel flow a lot of dirt goes thru filter and the dealers are instructed to void the warranty if this is the case. any filter that does not "plug up" means the dirt is passing thru not being stopped by the filter material.

I'm sorry, but "motorman" has no data to support his general statement that all oiled-cotton air filters allow more dirt to pass than all paper filters.

It is true that some paper filters (depends on the manufacturer, how its made and the application) can trap finer dirt particles than can some oiled cotton filters (again, it depends on the manufacturer, how its made and the applcation). It's also true that some oiled-cotton filters, when not properly maintained will trap less dirt than a new paper filter. It's also true that once you get particles down to 5-7 microns and below, it's questionable how much of a "threat" that type of contamination is to the engine in a light vehicle when it's used to even twice it's intended design life. If we're taking about, say, a 3408 Cat going 1,500,000 miles in a Peterbilt, then, yes, air filtering may need to be approached differently, but if we're talking an LS6 going 200,000 miles, some of the benchmarks you use to judge air filtering for the Cat in an HD truck applciations just don't make sense.

The idea that oiled-cotton filters do not "plug up" is a myth. When used as directed, they eventually trap and hold enough dirt to look dirty and if they continue to be used, they'll eventually restrict. There is one difference with some oiled-cotton filters and that once they do start to trap dirt they don't restrict as much as a paper filter holding the same amount of dirt.

"Motorman's" analogy with the heavy-duty engines in Class 7 and 8 trucks is irrlevent. The discussion here is about air filters used in light vehicles in street-driven, high-performance duty cycles. Oiled-cotton filters work well in that type of duty provided that the filter is cleaned then re-oiled on a regular basis.
 
I'd like to add that my comments *snip* Comments deleted due to being irrelevant to a subject on air filters.

Hib, please check your messages regarding some of your posts lately. Keep the topics on track and not personal. Thank you. *89x2*
 
I'm sorry, but "motorman" has no data to support his general statement that all oiled-cotton air filters allow more dirt to pass than all paper filters.

It is true that some paper filters (depends on the manufacturer, how its made and the application) can trap finer dirt particles than can some oiled cotton filters (again, it depends on the manufacturer, how its made and the applcation). It's also true that some oiled-cotton filters, when not properly maintained will trap less dirt than a new paper filter. It's also true that once you get particles down to 5-7 microns and below, it's questionable how much of a "threat" that type of contamination is to the engine in a light vehicle when it's used to even twice it's intended design life. If we're taking about, say, a 3408 Cat going 1,500,000 miles in a Peterbilt, then, yes, air filtering may need to be approached differently, but if we're talking an LS6 going 200,000 miles, some of the benchmarks you use to judge air filtering for the Cat in an HD truck applciations just don't make sense.

The idea that oiled-cotton filters do not "plug up" is a myth. When used as directed, they eventually trap and hold enough dirt to look dirty and if they continue to be used, they'll eventually restrict. There is one difference with some oiled-cotton filters and that once they do start to trap dirt they don't restrict as much as a paper filter holding the same amount of dirt.

"Motorman's" analogy with the heavy-duty engines in Class 7 and 8 trucks is irrlevent. The discussion here is about air filters used in light vehicles in street-driven, high-performance duty cycles. Oiled-cotton filters work well in that type of duty provided that the filter is cleaned then re-oiled on a regular basis.

Air filtering IS relevant for all engines and whether the engines is CI or SI, LD or HDD the need for clean air being ingested into the combustion chamber is paramount. Restricion of air is loss of HP. And I have 30 years of engine development and testing to back it up.
 
Air filtering IS relevant for all engines and whether the engines is CI or SI, LD or HDD the need for clean air being ingested into the combustion chamber is paramount. Restricion of air is loss of HP. And I have 30 years of engine development and testing to back it up.


At what level of air filtration or lack of filtration does performance actually suffer and engine life seriously degrade?

I would assume that if a bug got paste the filter and into a cylinder that it might cause damage - might not if it burned up fast enough. Now if a screw or nut or washer got past the filter an into the cylinder, I'm pretty sure that damage would occur and soon.

If nothing bigger than 30 microns gets past the air filter and into the engine, how long will the engine last and still produce a reasonable level of performance?

What about 20 microns? 10? 5?

At what point is the cost and trouble of filtering all but nanoparticles out of the fuel air mixture worth it?

That's my real concern. If I don't plan on keeping the car more than 3-5 years, would the next owner notice any difference if I just used paper filters or K&N or Green filters? How about 10 years and average mileage? How about 15 years?

I'm an engineer also and I know that there are diminishing returns with everything when taken to extreme. At what point do I stop caring whether I have better filtration?
 
"Motorman's" analogy with the heavy-duty engines in Class 7 and 8 trucks is irrlevent. The discussion here is about air filters used in light vehicles in street-driven, high-performance duty cycles. Oiled-cotton filters work well in that type of duty provided that the filter is cleaned then re-oiled on a regular basis.
this GM thing is about pickups with "duramax" diesels. which some don't see more miles than a corvette
 
Test after test continue to prove that an oiled air filters can flow more cfms than a paper air filters. However, for the two stock L98 vettes I've owned, I have not seen any performance advantage in using one. For those with modified engines that can take advantage of extra cfms, then the "Green" or other oiled based air filters are worth looking at. Hib's point regarding air filters was that the "Green" filter was a better design. I never heard of this company until now.

Here is another oiled vs paper air filter test and quote from Bob is the oil guy at http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm
"Well there is a clear pattern on filtration ability compared to both flow and the type of filtration media used. The "high performance" cotton gauze and foam filters do not filter as well as some have claimed. I actually received an e-mail from K&N stating their filters filter within 99% of the OEM filters. This may be true, and 1% may not sound like much. I contend that 1% over many miles, may be important. Really, it is up to each individual to decide. The poorer flowing filters, remove more particles, and the better flowing filters remove less particles..."
Here is the full test at http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm
 
on most new vehicles the air box design not the filter element is the restriction because of the federal noise restrictions.
 
Interesting topic.

Please keep this thread ON-TOPIC :cool (...unlike it was earlier)

If you have an issue with this site, a member, or how it is run, take it to (PM) Private Messges vs. an online debate about your feelings on the matter.
 
It is my understanding that the C4 air filter is much bigger than it needs to be for the L98 or LT1/4/5 engines, so seeing a performance increase with the installation of an oiled filter over a new paper filter is highly unlikely.

However, over time, the paper filters tend to restrict flow faster as they get dirty and the oiled filters flow more air longer, thus providing the performance advantage compared to old paper filters with similar miles and dirt. This is one of the reasons I use oiled filters. My current filters are K&N in all my cars (except the 08 - can see bying one just yet).

I've read about Green filters before and have considered them. May see if they make one for the 08. In the meantime, my K&N's are working just fine.
 
This is starting to smell like why the other forums are not as appealing as CAC.

ALL staff should be striving to maintain CACs exemplary status as THE source for INFORMATION. People come here from far more popular sites specifically for this.

'tis a sad day on a great forum when people feel the need to exercise their power to edit the opinions of others, especially of those who contribute to make the forum so valuable for so many of its members.
 
This is starting to smell like why the other forums are not as appealing as CAC.

ALL staff should be striving to maintain CACs exemplary status as THE source for INFORMATION. People come here from far more popular sites specifically for this.

'tis a sad day on a great forum when people feel the need to exercise their power to edit the opinions of others, especially of those who contribute to make the forum so valuable for so many of its members.

I agree. I am 55 years old. I have never, ever been censored at any time or any place. Of course, I have always lived in the United States of America.

I was censored because I stated: We all love Corvettes. All kinds of Corvettes. Some folks get hung up on just one model. I do not understand this.

Really off-topic, I should say.

Sorry for the rant. By the way, I already voted last week. Did not want to stand in line today.

Carry on!

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE JUST SAVE THE :w
 
Keep the thread ON-TOPIC.

This is starting to smell like why the other forums are not as appealing as CAC.

ALL staff should be striving to maintain CACs exemplary status as THE source for INFORMATION. People come here from far more popular sites specifically for this.

'tis a sad day on a great forum when people feel the need to exercise their power to edit the opinions of others, especially of those who contribute to make the forum so valuable for so many of its members.

I agree. I am 55 years old. I have never, ever been censored at any time or any place. Of course, I have always lived in the United States of America.

I was censored because I stated: We all love Corvettes. All kinds of Corvettes. Some folks get hung up on just one model. I do not understand this.

Really off-topic, I should say.

Sorry for the rant. By the way, I already voted last week. Did not want to stand in line today.

Carry on!

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE JUST SAVE THE :w



When an opinion given, is a personal attack against another member or group here, it is typically removed and the person who posted the item may be warned. That is a part of the :CAC Terms of Service. If you have questions about this or anything else relating to the site, contact the staff.

The :CAC is an amazing source of information well beyond the forums. Rob's dedication to the other areas is what really sets this site apart from others. :cool
 

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