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C4 with a big block--possible?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dean Barker
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Dean Barker

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Will a big block fit into a C4? I would like to do this with a 96 convertible with auto trans.
 
The big block is taller and wider so I believe you would have problems with the valve covers hitting. Big block is nice but why not just get the Z06 crate motor and install it ?

:w
 
for the cost of fabrication and upgrading you can have the max is small block technology. put your TPI on with a mini ram or super ram and most likley pass emissions still. best of all make Big Block Power with a small Block. wish i could buy this baby. maybe next year :D


http://www.shafiroff.com/472_675_engine.asp
 
Here's your solution:


383:D
 
Dean Barker said:
Will a big block fit into a C4? I would like to do this with a 96 convertible with auto trans.

A big block kinda sorta fits a C4.

Back in the late 80s GM actually built a couple of BBC C4 protos but they all had six-speeds.

You'll have to modify the frame slightly in a couple of places. You'll need to find an induction system that will work with a BB in a car with a low hood and even then, you'll probably have to put a different hood on the car to clear even the lowest inductions. If you use some kind of EFI, you'll have an engine controls challenge to solve. The durability of a C4 automatic trans (4L60E) behind a BBC will be questionable at best so you'll need to swap in a 4L80E and that will bring a host of trans control challenges. If it were me, while converting to the Big-Block, I'd change over to a six-speed. Lastly, the C4 convertible structure is pretty weak so when you go to an engine with the torque output typical of a hot rod Big-Block you may see some unusual handling characteristics as the structure flexes due to the increased torque. How noticable that is will depend on 1) how powerful a Big-Block is installed and 2) how you drive the car.
 
There IS an "alternative" to installing a Rat Motor and all the problem's that the modification's would do to the Chassis/Body/Control's etc, basically altering the
car permanently. Not to mention unknown $$$ cost's to do a Quality Job of it,
aside from the cost of the Big Block and Tran's. Some Fair Sized $$$ all told.

Why not a World Product's "Hardcore" 427 or 454 SMALL/Big Block!!???

Not "Cheap" motor's by any means,around $10K but you get the everything a
Rat Motor would give in a SMALL Block that should be a "Bolt In" job saving a
lot of hassle's and I would say in $$$$ costing no more than what you could
expect to spend doing the Big Block Swap.
 
I really wanted to do this when I started my 3 year project. I drove an '87 with an aluminum 454; a mildly tuned motor belonging to The Corvette Shop owner in San Diego. It was okay, driving it, but it would never pass the visual part of the SMOG check in CA. A few CA owners have done it, I hear, and swap motors every two years for SMOG certification; not my cup of tea. I heard there also was one in the UK.

I am quite satisfied with my car's similarly-stroked 406. It presented enough challenges and while most of them are solved, I now have a better appreciation for the huge leap represented by going from the SBC to a BBC. I suppose there are a few Vette shops around the US that could do it, but I'd hate to see the end price. Very few individuals would be able to finish it. Heck, only a few shops could have successfully converted the TBI to a TPI! I am still addressing problems associated with the power produced in my motor. It's been 4 years since the engine went in and I have a fair amount of free time to spend on it. My spreadsheet total, so far, is just under $20k, plus the already owned car.

Options exist for a SBC that do not for a BBC. That starts with motor mounts and goes through all the engine accessories, exhaust plumbing, sensors and wiring harness, etc., etc. This is not to be taken lightly, I have found, unless one has a custom fabrication shop and the time, money and expertise to make strong parts for many applications.

Yeah...an LS-6 (old kind). Wow. My one-time dream. But, you know, I think this package is faster and handles much better than my single-minded BBC obsession would have.

Now, if I had just been smart enough to listen to D. Guldstrand, who recommended I trade my car for a TPI equipped car.
 
how do you install a 454-502 in a C-4
if you put a bbc with aluminum heads, intake and water pump in , in place of the standard iron small block you only gain about 50-70 lbs, not enough differance to cause any problems at all, , I have worked on several of these swaps now and Im in the process of getting ready to do another one,heres whats needed
steering rack mounts cut and rewelded 3/4"-1" farther forward (that of course means the power steering pump lines/steering shaft, need to be extended 3/4" also)
small notch (starting at rear and going 3" forward from rear edge X 3/4"deep X 5" wide works well in rear top surface of (K) frame cross member to clear damper and pulley)(if you use an internally ballanced big block with the 6.75" dia. damper you can most likely skip the notch but with the 8" dia damper its necessary, and some oil pans will also require the back 1 1/2 of the (K) frame to be notched at an angle slopeing to the rear to clear them so youll probablly need the notch of some kind anyway)(and yes before you ask you could shim/modify the motor mounts up to get the clearance, but that would slightly raise the weight center and slightly effect the handleing, and that also makes the windshield motor and distributor clearance a bigger problem)
air conditioner shrouding fiber glass on pass side foot well around the air conditioning on the firewall needs to be modifyed for clearance, (the fiber glass cover from a LT5 makes this easy)(evaporator houseing cover)
1971 bbc vette exhaust manifolds (or custom headers) and all brakets/pulleys (mods needed here)
(see the post on building your own headers)
oil pan needs to be only 7.5" deep max
3" hood scoop unless you run a low rise intake and carb or a low height efi system


for a step by step instructions with pictures get a copy of the august 1998 vette magizine article( starts on page 34)it helped quite a bit the first time


otherwise its almost a drop in deal, but keep in mind that youll need a bigger radiator, the trans will not last to long with that amount of torque and it may not pass emission testing and a small size starter is needed, and your windshield wiper motor needs to be replaced with a much smaller one,(I don,t remember where we got them but alittle measureing and a trip to the salvage yard took care of that problem, and no tall valve covers don,t work well!
btw install the short block then add the heads with it in the car its FAR EASIER THAT WAY than trying to install the long block
BTW the earlier cars like the 1984-86 (Im not sure what years exactly)dont have the heavier forward frame braceing above the stearing rack that makes this swap more difficult to do! I have worked on this swap on the 84, 85, and 86 cars so I know they work fine, the later cars like the 1992 with the heivier forward frame braces above the stearing rack look like they will be more dificult but still do-able with some extra work, btw theres a guy at ARIZONA SPEED AND MARINE that has one you might want to talk to .just a few points
an all aluminum bbc WEIGHS LESS THAN AN IRON SMALL BLOCK so the HANDLING IMPROVES
an aluminum head, intake and water pump bring a bbc engines weight to within 70 lbs of the stock iron small block, so handling is almost unchanged
any un-supercharged small block not useing nitrous or some other power adder that makes over 550 hp is highly likely to be at least somewhat unstreetable as a daily driver and your not likely to build a small block that makes "764 HP & 695 lb/ft at the flywheel" likely costs as much or more than a big block makeing similar power, look, good engine choice
_______
heres a few pictures
motorTop4cf.jpg

it will of course depend on the engine combo you chose , and traction is usually a problem but low 12 second to mid 11 seconds is not at all hard for the cars Ive worked on. now you could build a kick butt engine and get into the 10s with ease but at that hp level the rear suspension and rear end itself tends to need work! the strong point here is that unlike a high hp sbc engine with nitrous and a huge cam, these cars are relitively easy to drive as daily drivers and the passing power with just part throttle is necessary to feel to be believed. plus the viper guys get really upset when you pull next to them at 50mph and pull away like they have a dead cylinder with the better chevy bbc engine combos, but you really are better off with aluminum heads/water pump and intake. btw getting a kick butt bbc is very easy, and far cheaper than a viper engine. btw the 700r4 trans or the manual trans that comes in the corvettes won,t handle a 550hp plus engine for long, but the 4L80E OVERDRIVE automatic TRANSMISSION chevy installs in the larger trucks can be used (EXPENSIVE BUT THATS WHAT I BOUGHT FOR MY FUTURE SWAP)


http://www.ideasandsolutions.biz/Hoover/top.html
http://shop.theengineshop.com/dr/v2/ec_MAIN.Entry16?SP=10024&PN=29&xid=42186&V1=30014126&V2=30014126&V3=1&V5=11000185&V4=10&S1=&S2=&S3=&S4=&S5=&DSP=0&CUR=840&PGRP=0&CACHE_ID=0

keep in mind the cost versus performance ratio, a nice C-4 vette can be purchased for $6000-$20,000 add that $9000-$15,000 BBC drivetrain and youll have a car that kicks 99% of the cars on the roads butts (INCLUDEING MOST VIPERS) for about $16,000-$35,000
the rear ends hold up fairly well untill you use slicks, street tires won,t normally get enough traction to break things unless you use nitrous
both the 4 plus 3 manual and the 700r4 trans will work for awhile especially if your not trying 3000rpm launches all the time, the 700r4 trans can be built fairly tough but if your intent is to get 10 second 1/4 mile drag times then no! youll need to upgrade the trans to a 4L80E or TH400 with a serious big block or one of the sturdier manual transmissions
heres a few links
http://www.peachstatechevelles.com/muncieid.html
http://www.4speeds.com/muncie2.htm
http://www.yearone.com/updatedsinglepages/Id_info/muncie.htm
http://www.5speeds.com/kit.htm
http://www.drivetrain.com/saginaw3_4sp.html
http://members.rogers.com/mlvd/muncie_rebuild.htm
http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/transmissions/hydra/apps/4l80.htm

if your really looking for 600hp and you have a lot of spare change , drop in one of these 540-632 displacement engines, and run mid 10s with some suspension/tires and tuneing and a few mods like moving the battery to the trunk area and swapping to a light weight set of seats , adding a roll cage,ETC.
http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Sneak/Previews.html
http://www.theengineshop.com/engine6.shtml
http://www.theengineshop.com/engine3.shtml
http://www.diabolicalperformance.com/diabolical540.html
ZZ572bigside.jpg

http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Sneak/Previews.html
almost anything can be done with a little care and thought! now something like that under the hood with a set of this injection would look neat
acc2.gif
 
There's no doubt in my mind that it could be done, but I just can't imagine WHY. The beauty of the C4 Vette is its neutral handling prowess. A Big Block would make the car BIG TIME nose heavy which will COMPLETELY ruin the handling prowess of the car. If you are doing it for straight line performance, there are NUMEROUS chassis other than the Vette which would be far superior for such an engine.

There are some really decent, super big inch SBC's. Agreed, with big inches, the heads and induction system become the bottleneck but still you can make gobs of power with the SBC without turning your Vette into a car that handles like it's on ice.

My $0.02,
 
So I take it that it's more than just a Saturday afternoon project? :L:L:L

With today's technology, small blocks are putting out some impressive power for their size. Why not just stay with a nicely built small block?
 
Edmond said:
Why not just stay with a nicely built small block?

now I know you did not really ask,but this would weight LESS that the factory sbc engine ,you might want to look at this, its a rough idea still needing careful parts matching checks, before finalizing , its for a serious race only application, and at this point the combo needs tweaking, if anyone can post a picture of the DD DYNO power curve Id appreciate it as I can,t POST that PICTURE
Corvette Dream engine, the ideas to get 700hp before the giggle gas injection,AND not to exceed 6000rpm, maximizing power from 3000rpm-6000rpm is the concern, I don,t want to change the bore/stroke or cylinder heads feel free to point out potential problems its still a rought draft idea at this point , its similar to other engines Ive built but with several new part designs and yeah its only going to see 115 octane not pump gas
TALL DECK 4.5 bore Block #083111
http://www.worldcastings.com/docs/05_cat_pg7.pdf
heads #020750-4 …….345cc
http://www.worldcastings.com/docs/05_cat_pg23.pdf
intake single plane dominator style
http://www.worldcastings.com/docs/05_cat_pg27.pdf
crank 4.375 stroke
http://www.dougherbert.com/chevy-4340-forged-profiled-cranks-p-12960.html?cPath=1_359
solid roller cam
http://www.dougherbert.com/8620-billet-roller-lifter-p-9820.html?cPath=83_84_87
roller lifters
http://www.dougherbert.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=83_93&products_id=10117
rockers
http://www.dougherbert.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=83_284&products_id=12702
pistons
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/forged.php?action=details&P_id=399
RODS/ 6.8” eagle
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=1240&prmenbr=361
dominator carb, 1150cfm
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=401189&prmenbr=361
500hp nitrous direct port injection
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=3771&prmenbr=361
oil pan
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=1756&prmenbr=361

yeah, its a 14:1 cpr 555 bbc, yeah the pistons are .058 out above deck ,unless machined, if the decks at minimum, they will be custom fitted or replaced with custom made, but the vettes handling would be improved over stock and the corvette should easily run respectable times
 
I'm always astounded by Grumpy's in-depth posts. There's an amazing amount of information there. He's an asset to the forum.
 
BB late model Vette

Very do able. :upthumbs I believe at least one of these were built by GM using a new ZL1 BB with twin turbos all under the hood. It was in a GM display and the sign as I recall stated as 700HP in a yellow coupe. I saw this car a couple of years ago at the Detroit Autorama. I almost drooled all over it, as its exactly my kind of Vette. :cool
 
Grumpyvette while you are telling us about how much more streetable the 632 is than a small block why not tell us how much better it would be on gas mileage.
I have a 406 sb with a D1-R procharger and Nitrous with ZF-6 speed it will exceed 20 miles to the gallon cruising and puts 1000hp to the rear wheels.
Best of both worlds better handling also. You keep wanting to compare aluminum big block to iron small block. How about comparing an aluminum SB to BB. All Aluminum small block with 455cid and prochager will be lighter then the big block and get better mileage also beat you on the track and you don't have to butcher the car to install it.
 
bump
 
first Id point out that swapping to a big block is ONLY ONE OPTION of many available.
its a free country, if you rather build and install a supercharged sbc . thats of course your option. but Id also point out that if you do the same type of mods to a bbc engine the results will be even more hp due to the larger displacement, they frequently exceed 1700HP with intercooled supercharged BBC engines in competition
next Id point out that the cost per hp of building a sbc with a supercharger and intercooler that makes 600-700hp or more hp is usually far higher than a bbc N/A engine making similar power levels and the tech skills and engine compartment room necessary to install intercoolers, drive belts, are limited,not once did I say you could not build a killer sbc, only that the total costs frequently match or exceed the cost to get similar hp from a bbc engine.
as to BUTCHERING a corvette,
MPH136Pass.jpg

this hardly appears to be a butcher job
http://www.3cinc.net/index.html

Im sure you did far more mods to install an intercooled sbc than notching the k-frame and extending the steering assembly 1" and replacing the evaporator cover ,thats necessary to install a bbc in a c4

examples of crate engines
sbc with 635hp $11500 the 675hp version is $1200 MORE
http://www.shafiroff.com/472_675_engine.asp

bbc with 755 hp 750 FT LBS OF TQ $10500
http://www.shafiroff.com/598_755_engine.asp

notice the sbc has 75hp LESS and costs $2200 MORE


as to fuel economy, I seriously doubt anyone spending well in excess of $11,000 on an engine thats seriously concerned with haveing 700 plus hp on tap is concered with the differance in mileage,its hardly a daily driver designed with mileage as the prime concern, keep in mind that hp reguardless of the engine used requires a certain amount of fuel/air mix to be burnt to reach a certain level of power, and supercharged engines normally require a good deal more fuel than N/A engine combos,I doubt the differance in mileage at the 700hp level is significant, since the amount of fuel/air mix used will be similar
again Id point out its ONLY ONE OPTION, not the ONLY OPTION, but the ONE IM WORKING ON CURRENTLY
 

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