Darn thang won't run!

[Jack]

cam thought

R&D:
As Tom inquired, it'd be interesting to first ID the cam you have now ... just what is it?

Just a thought ... But Wolverine (Crane subsidiary) makes several cams that are purportedly "equivalents" to noted hot OE cams. One comes to mind here. Wolverine pn WG1053 has 254º/254º dur @ .050" and lift .485"/.485" and lobe ctrs @ 110º/118º. This is quite nearly equivalent to a mechanical "Duntov 30-30" that I understand was in some '64 & '65 327 models and produced 365-375 hp:eek :eek ... of course it can be and probably was run w/hydraulics in other applications. This is a rather aggressive cam; I don't know if you have the compression ratio to match ... maybe you do. I don't know if "budget" is in your '62's vocabulary, but one of my favorite suppliers www.autosupplyhouse.com @ 1-800-438-4070 has pn WG 1053 for under $65; plain hydraulics @ $1.19 each, hi-po hydraulics @ $3 each and solids @ $2.50 each. There's NO online catalog but other cams are available too ... I recently got an L-82 "equivalent" for $42. I'm sure there'll be others with suggestions just as good or better. JACK:gap

 

[Rowdy1]

Depends On What You Want

There's a such a wide range of cams to pick from, without some direction of what you want it to do, it's hard to recommend one. I've always been a fan of the lumpy idle. I went with a cam made by the guy that was designing cams for Big Daddy Don Gartlits and I believe may have come up with the first roller cam. Don't hold me to it, I haven't researched it to that degree but I have a friend that is my guru for power and he swears by them. I love my cam, with the MSD ignition and the rev limiter, I'm currently using the 7000 rpm chip and still making ponies at that rpm. I can hunt up the spec sheet if you'te interested, drop me an email. In my 62 I'm running a 30 over 327 with 11 1/2 to 1 comp. aluminum heads, 700 double pump, msd dist, 6al box, 2 1/2 inch exhaust front to back, port matched victor jr. intake, k&n filters, 4:11 posi, thus the nickname, Rowdy one It'll cruise all day at 2500 but it will also rock & roll when you whack it. I think I paid around $90 for the cam, again, if you want more details on the rest of the parts, drop me an email. I check every day to see how you're making out. You're 62 brother, LJ.

Still haven't figured out how to get my pics in here, waiting for my pc guru to stop by.

 

[Solid62]

As promised...

Here is the culprit

Look carefully at the attached pic and you will see (barely) the the Advance and Retard Keyways have a nice clear dot to indicate the Timing, BUT the Neutral Keyway has a very faint 0 to mark the timing spot.

Sooooo, when I installed the damn thing, I looked for the obvious dot, not noticing that there were two dots and a faint 0. IF I had looked a little more closely before putting it on, I would have had a fair chance at seeing it!:cry


Now, 16 pushrods, a lot of scraped knuckles, and some gaskets later, we are ready to reassemble:J

Well, big lesson learned!!!!!! Go Slow!~!

About the Cam: it has a lot of numbers on it:
1 579
J6
16
D2
C2
CNC
965741

good luck figuring it out!~!


Rick and Donna

 

[Tom Bryant]

oops plus old tech vs new tech in cams

Rick,
Glad you found the culprit. It seems to me that if the valves were hitting in the 4 degree advanced position that you must have a cam with a good amount of lift. Do you or can you borrow a dial indicator to measure the lift at the lifter? That times 1.5 and we would know if it was a Chevy cam or not. I'm thinking aftermarket performance hyd. I could search more for the cam markings but they don't look GM. Cams can be hard to ID. Some have the GM parts number as an ID and others have other reference numbers. It might be a very good cam to leave in there. You did say it ran real strong.

Now a few comments about cams. The 30-30 cam that Jack refers to was the 327/ 375 FI and 365 4bbl cam. That's all. Gm didn't use a cam with solid lifters in one application and hyd in another. It was good for the time it was used. Like the Duntov you didn't get up on the cam until 3000rpm plus. Zora liked high rpm horsepower for competition use. In a road race situation where a close ratio 4-speed was used the engine speed was kept in the power band. By modern standards the lift is moderate and the duration is too long for good street use. This cam was later used as the LT1 cam in '70-'72. Although it was given a new part # the cast ID # stayed the same.

TRW and others sell cams ground to GM performance cams specs as replacements. Common "blueprint" cams are a little different item. Back in the late '60s to early '70s there became a need to have a closer tolerence replacement cam for stock and some super stock NHRA drag classes where stock cam specs were ruled. These cams are made to exacting specs and match the original lift and duration measurements that the NHRA inspecters will be looking for. However the ramp profiles were altered to allow more area under the curve, in effect giving better breathing with the same stock specs. I put a Lunati 327/350 blueprint cam in a '61 Corvette with a built 302 and it was noticably more radical than the GM 327/350 cam in the '68 sitting next to it.

So what are these cams good for? Well, other than NHRA stock classes there are the NCRS correct restorations where the car is put back to original and the judges do listen to the engines for a correct sounding cam. Other than that these are 35 to 45 year old technology and there is much better available today. These old cams had long durations and overlaps where unburned fuel would enter the intake and blow on out the exhaust valve before it closed. High compresion ratios made up for some of that.

The 327/350 cam is widely considered to be the baseline of the modern hyd performace cam. I credit Bruce Crower for developing the modern non-symetrical cam lobes in the '70s. Compression was down, mileage was down, and performance was terrible.

He developed a short duration profile with rapid intake opening rates and rapid closing rates while holding the valve as far open as possible for as long as possible. This allowed more complete cylinder filling, virtually eliminated loosing unburned fuel out of the exhaust and created higher cylinder pressure, in effect "fooling" the engine into thinking it had a higher compression ratio.

Better drivability/mileage and more power were the benifits. Torque curves as flat as Kansas from down low up to the limit of the engine have been developed by all the cam grinders thanks to this technology. It just doesn't make any sense not to use a modern profile cam today.

Rick,

If you decide to change the cam I have some ideas. We will need to know your axle ratio as cruising in the torque peak is very important. I'm rambling and I'm going to bed. Talk to you later.

Tom

 

[Rowdy1]

GOOD DEAL

I know the feeling of finally finding a problem that's been driving you nuts! Glad you found it and I agree, take your time, I made some VERY silly mistakes putting mine together the first time simply because I was in a hurry to get it on the road.

I also agree110% with Tom on the modern technology aspect. Search your brain thoroughly to make sure you know what you want, then decide. Gotta get to work, good luck.

PS......Tom, you are truely a tremendous asset to us, I value your knowledge and I wish I lived closer to you, you definitely know your stuff. Hats off to you.

 

[Solid62]

DAMNNNNN!

WOW!

Tom, did you just read all that from a book!LOL!!

Great info!. Rowdy is right, you are an awesome asset!

Okay, I will work on the tranny and diff specs. We are going to reassemble and get her running for the summer.

This winter will be a complete rebuild from the oil pan drain plug to the air cleaner wing nut.

Your help on the cam will be great. Since I am running aftermarket LT1 heads anyway, we are going to replace them with a set of World Products Heads I have sitting new in the box (171cc Intake runners, 76 cc Chambers, 2.02 Stainless Manley Intake Valves and Stainless Exhaust, Stock Rockers, screw-in studs and 1.25" springs.) Supposed to be good for about 30 horses...

So a decent Cam would be a nice addition. We would like to keep the bottom end original (love the pistons!) and just bolt on/in a few improvements. Will make restoring to stock a little easier in the future..

Okay, gotta get to the job that pays the bills!!

Donna says "thanks for the help also!!! (I think you are her new hero!!)


THANKS!!!!!
Rick and Donna

 

[Rowdy1]

Screw In Studs

Along with everything else you have to remember to do, DO NOT, make the same mistake I did. When I put my alum. heads on, I torqued all the head bolts and rocker studs and used the arp thread sealer on the head bolts only. Unknown to me, the intake rocker studs on my heads are drilled all the way through. When I started the motor up for the first time, it smoked a little but having only done the top end, being in a rush to not lose my first summer with the new toy I atributed it to the extra comp. from the new heads, 64cc chambers. I ended up due to some other things, the end of Oct. pulling the motor to check everything out. I had to find another block which I did, rebuilt it from the bottom up and it still smoked. Drove me CRAZYad until I happened to see raw oil on the top of the valves with the intake off. Took the studs out, cleaned everything up, used the thread sealer, presto, smokeless. We tried every test in the book and were about to pull the heads and send them back with a VERY nasty letter until we found MY STUPID MISTAKE!!! Let us know what cam you decide on.

Later

 

[Tom Bryant]

Thanks for the compliments all

I'm starting to get a fat head. (Rob, we need an smiley face for swelled head). Yes I was the kid that read Hot Rod in English class. LJ, I like the specs on your '62. I'll bet it screams. How well do you get along with the 11 1/2 compression ratio with available pump gas? What headers did you use? I would like to hear your cam specs too. Sounds well thought out.

I like a little lumpity, lumpity too. I have a new 140, Z28 optional, cam on the shelf(speaking of old tech). I have always wanted to use it in a light weight car that would rev fast, with about 4.56 gears ( under the bench) and that lightweight L88 flywheel and clutch that I have been saving all these years. I would top it with that old Smokey Ram intake up on top of the cabinets and a 850 double pumper. A 3" stroke crank in one of the 4 bolt blocks I have been hording , for 302, and a good set of alloy heads and I would have a real screamer. Hmmm maybe in a chopped and channeled A bone coupe weighing it at about 1800 lbs with an overdrive 5 ot 6 speed. Sorry, When I start to think I get dangerous.

Time to go to work.

Tom

 

[Solid62]

Yes TOM!!!

A swelled head smilie for you and doofus smilie for me!!!


Well, we got her back together and she had no fire.....

Donna says tonight, "I think the spark is crappy, pull the coil tower wire and jumper in an extra wire to see the spark jump"

"Okay, okay' I says, "But I know she had spark before the teardown"

So I do it and....

Turns out we also had a EXTREMELY weak coil.:crazy :bash

That was why she up and died on me in the first place and was bubbling and starting to get a little weak in the ponies. All over a two week period!

Pulled the coil off the 65 Dart GT and VOILA'! She fires up.

At least until the lifters pumped up and then boop, boop, boop through the carb she went...

So manana we'll back off the rockers a bit and try again. Think I'll drop by Autozone and pickup an Accel coil....
:J


Rick and Donna:booty

Oh yeah, I included a shot of a NEVER FIRED UP 62 Fuelie that's in the Pidgeon Forge Muscle Car Museum.

Enjoy!

 

[Solid62]

OKAY!

Here's another shot!

 

[Solid62]

yesss

Okay, but this is this last one! I don't want to swamp Rob's Server!

 

[Rowdy1]

OH MY..........

Sounds like you've got quite the stash in that garage huh? Probably a good thing I don't live closer. I thought I had the specs on my cam in a folder next to my pc but I don't. I'll have to dig them up for you, it's a real nice cam, a Chet Herbert cc4r. I have no problem with the pump gas, I use only 94 octane Sunoco. I think the MSD has a lot to do with that with the multiple spark. I've always been a lover of a high reving low geared small block.

Hope you get all the bugs out soon Rick

 

[Tom Bryant]

Now there is a magic name

LJ,

Yes, Chet Herbert is reguarded as the first to offer a roller cam. They were big in the '60s. I was wondering if that was the name you were going to give.

Tom

 

[Tom Bryant]

boop, boop, boop

It does sound like you have the lifters too tight. I think the official GM setting is 1 1/2 turns after 0 clearance. I always ran my 327/350 cam at 1/4 turn. Legend was that they revved better. Who knows?

BTW. Great '62.

Tom

 

[Rowdy1]

Cam Specs

I knew I'd find it if I looked in the right place Tom. They are as follows:
Model:C4R
Duration: INT. 286 at .050 255
Exh. 296 at .050 263
Lift: INT. .504"
EXH. .504"
Lobe Separation 105*
Installed at split overlap
Valve Lash INT. .026
" " EXH. .026

I'm sure all this makes sense to you, but I'm a little green with it all. I have very basic knowledge and went by a very good friend's advice that's been building race small blocks for years on what to use when I told him what I was looking to come up with horsepower wise after building it. I have NO complaints with the way it runs.

 

[Solid62]

OH YEAH BABY!!!

MAN OH MAN!!!!

We just had a fabulous weekend!

Put on the new World Heads and stuck the old LT1's in the corner of the garage.
Got the valves adjusted pretty close (1/4 past slight friction, still ticks a bit) and new accel canister coil in time to get her to the Mayfield, Ohio 2001 Show.

WOW!:eek She runs soooooo purty now!!!

The show was awesome. About 900 cars showed. All pre 1970 for the most part, and only a few vettes. We are in the parade circuit making the rounds and gettin plenty of .

We were the only 62 vette with the Hardtop on (there was a sexy 59 vertable and a 62 With the softtop up) otherwise, they were all C2 and C3's.

People were actually running up to car whenever the parade idled, to ask questions. We loved it!

Donna commented it was like being famous, everywhere you go, people where yelling and waving. Never got that reaction in the 74!!

SO anyway, thanks to EVERYONE who contributed!

I am amazed at the difference the new heads and timing set made!!! She purrs like a kitten until I let her roar. A couple of streetracers (Latemodel Camaros) tried to get my attention, but I am too old to be ******ed. I just dusted 'em enough to let 'em know that old iron (and Plastic) is not to be trifled with!

Now I get to struggle with the Softop adjustments. I have a new top installed and new weatherstripping to put on, but we're waiting to find someone who can adjust the top correctly. Man what a pain!


GO CAC!!!
Rick and Donna

 

[Rowdy1]

Good Deal

Glad to hear you're running again, and very well it sounds like. What cam did you go with, the one that was in it? I can appreciate the feeling of finding a problem that was driving you nuts and beating it none too soon. I can also understand the wife getting the movie star feeling. She used to say all the waves and thumbs up were for the car, now it's because she looks "hot" in it. ( She may be right!) We have cruise nights here every night of the week, and it never fails, when we pull in, the guys all want to know what's under the hood, and the women all want the car. The newer ones just don't get the attention the older ones do. I don't have a hard top yet, actually, I've only had the rag top up twice since I bought it. One of these days I'll get a picture of mine up, my files are too big, whatever that means. Got a huge storm coming in, gonna shut it down. Congrats Rick & Donna

 

[Tom Bryant]

Up and running

Rick and Donna,

Congratulations on getting the '62 running. Sounds like if you run the lifters again and go to 1/2 or 3/4 turn you should be in good shape.

I've had my top in and out of the '59 many times . What is your specific complaint with the top fit? Maybe I can get you going in the right direction.

Tom

 

[Jack]

Aww-ryte!

Super! What a payoff!
JACK:gap

 

[Solid62]

TOP OF THE WORLD!

Thanks Guys!

We kept the mystery cam for now. I could see a bit of babbit on the front cam bearing showing, so it won't be long before she gets one of ya'lls recomendations.

Obviously, we'll do the whole thing, but I wonder, is it best to keep the stock bottom end and just refurb it? I have this dream (HAHAHA) that we will get her back to Judgeability someday.

In order to do it we need:
Complete 62 FI setup - Baseplate, Distributor, Air Cleaner, FI
Correct year heads
Correct years Waterpump
Various odds and ends.

So $10k or so. I have also lately been fantasizing about the new GM Fuel InjectionSetup that comes with all the goodies for about $3500. Would make quite a conversation piece at the showsa since the car was a Fuelie originally...

Okay, so, you dared to ask...
Specifically, the Top has decent quality new Material but the adjustments are a bit tricky. Two main areas of concern:

1. Rear Bow doesn't meet the back deck and the rear latches don't stay latched. They pop right back up. Should I replace them. Are they worn. They don't seem to have a lock position, but rather seem to rely on some arcane force of nature and friction to work...
2. Door Windows don't close well enough against the top. WE have allnew seals to put on, but I am hesitant to start until I can adjust this thing.

I have tried messing with the four bolts on each side, but I couldn't seem to improve the fit. Once you loosen em, they are a booger to get back to the right position.

I was sort of praying for a screw or shim adjustment, but it is obviously the old grooved friction plate system. They are difficult to make incremental changes to...

Thansk for any advice you might have!

Tonight is "rearend tear down night" Hoping to find a 20 minute/ $0.69 repair!!!!LMFOA:L:L:L:L:L:L:L:L