Doing Your Own Front End Alignment

[Antz81]

As my vehicles are sitting on a tall block of wood with steel shims on it the block of wood tilts in or out as shims are added or removed.

I thought you were supposed to make us feel more confident that your method was accurate and safe. But to me this doesn't sound safe.

I think LLC5 was referring to the questions about the grease zerks position relative to the wheel rather than the type of grease zerk.

You keep saying you have been doing it this way for 50 years, but how to you know that the alignment is right? If you have had it checked in a shop and it is correct then fine I'll believe you that it works.

Herniated oesophagus? That does not sound pleasant. Hopefully the procedure on the 15th goes well. (And lasts longer than the others.

 

[LLC5]

I thought you were supposed to make us feel more confident that your method was accurate and safe. But to me this doesn't sound safe.

I think LLC5 was referring to the questions about the grease zerks position relative to the wheel rather than the type of grease zerk.

You keep saying you have been doing it this way for 50 years, but how to you know that the alignment is right? If you have had it checked in a shop and it is correct then fine I'll believe you that it works.

Herniated oesophagus? That does not sound pleasant. Hopefully the procedure on the 15th goes well. (And lasts longer than the others.[/QUOTE.


He can't or won't answer a direct question if he chooses to ignore it. Too bad, we gave him a lot of "outs" with a logical explanation, if even possible. Oh well........

 

[dougelam]

Oh well........

I second that[emoji106]

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[toobroketoretire]

Aligning Your Own Front End

The whole point of my thread was to teach folks how to do their own front end alignments without having to pay someone to do it for them. You see, some of us C3 owners actually enjoy working on their C3's and learning new things. And once you learn how to align the front end of any of the early G.M. cars you can use the same principles to align the front end of any car. When I got my '71 years ago it didn't have any shims behind the upper control arms so it was VERY evil handling. It pulled real hard to the left and the steering wheel shimmied something awful in turns. I rebuilt the front end with new bushings, ball joints, and tie rod ends then worked my magic on it. When I got done aligning it's front end it handled like a new car. So what did I do wrong?

 

[dougelam]

The whole point of my thread was to teach folks how to do their own front end alignments without having to pay someone to do it for them. You see, some of us C3 owners actually enjoy working on their C3's and learning new things. And once you learn how to align the front end of any of the early G.M. cars you can use the same principles to align the front end of any car. When I got my '71 years ago it didn't have any shims behind the upper control arms so it was VERY evil handling. It pulled real hard to the left and the steering wheel shimmied something awful in turns. I rebuilt the front end with new bushings, ball joints, and tie rod ends then worked my magic on it. When I got done aligning it's front end it handled like a new car. So what did I do wrong?

You didn't do anything wrong

You just keep insisting on only one side of the issue!

Everyone enjoys working on their own car, each to a curtain degree

But I'd be willing to bet all but 1 drop it off at the local front end shop, go for coffee, pay the man (who deserves to make a living also) and drives away feeling pretty darn good about it.

As for me now that I'm out of the business stand there, chat with the alignment tech, get the settings that I am comfortable with AND a print out. Now I can see what changed and if it did I can see if something is bent or worn.

You see thrust Angle, set back and SAI values can tell us a lot when they have all the suddenly changed. That is where I believe you fall short

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[LLC5]

The whole point of my thread was to teach folks how to do their own front end alignments without having to pay someone to do it for them. You see, some of us C3 owners actually enjoy working on their C3's and learning new things. And once you learn how to align the front end of any of the early G.M. cars you can use the same principles to align the front end of any car. When I got my '71 years ago it didn't have any shims behind the upper control arms so it was VERY evil handling. It pulled real hard to the left and the steering wheel shimmied something awful in turns. I rebuilt the front end with new bushings, ball joints, and tie rod ends then worked my magic on it. When I got done aligning it's front end it handled like a new car. So what did I do wrong?

What you are doing wrong in my opinion is trying to pass off your "alignment" procedure as the proper way to do an alignment, and it is not. Just because you have done it that way for 50 years does not mean that it was done correctly, not by a long shot. You have no documentation of your results other that your "50 year rule" and you refuse to post any after being asked to multiple times. You refuse to answer any direct question about your education of the subject such as work history or training. Any direct question related to your procedure you steadfastly refuse to answer. I could go on, but I am tired of typing. So no, you have no credibility, and that is what is wrong, coupled with your arrogance to insist that your procedure is the "correct" way to do an alignment.

 

[Mac]

Back in 1987 while painting my house I took a backward and upside down fall off a ten foot ladder. When I hit the ground upside down the impact buckled my spine between T9 and T10 and drove my face into my crotch! My spine got torn apart and my lower esophagus got ripped open (the esophagus is attached to the front of the spine). I lived in misery for the next 20 years until I finally got my herniated esophagus cauterized closed in mid 2007. My spine got fused in early 2009 and my herniated esophagus cauterized closed (again) but the hernia keeps opening and to this date I have had it repaired 14 times since 2007. I am going to have the 15th repair done at the Sansum Medical Clinic in Santa Barbara on August 16th but it will certainly fail as the other repairs have. As I'm in so much pain I have been adding new posts but not addressing each of your posts and for that I am sorry.

It sounds like you're lucky to be alive. Take care of yourself and good luck in the surgery.

Mac

 

[toobroketoretire]

It sounds like you're lucky to be alive. Take care of yourself and good luck in the surgery.

Mac

One of the doctors I saw back in 2008 told me I was very lucky I didn't bleed to death because when I buckled my spine between T9 and T10 I also tore one of the blood vessels in my spine open. When I go in for the endoscopy the doctor will cauterize the hernia closed again but the problem is it'll be torn open again within 6-7 months.

Back to my front end alignment procedure. I never said it's the ONLY way..............just MY way and it's accurate enough to provide smooth steering under all driving conditions. If the caster and camber angles are off very much the steering wheel will shimmy BAD when going around high speed corners and mine doesn't shimmy at all. Why? Because it's well within the specifications.

With my simple tool and a digital angle finder it's very easy to correctly set the very important caster and camber angles so why are you guys bashing me and my procedure? Do you just hate learning new things? Or do you just hate it when someone else knows something you don't? Heck, even at 68 years old I am still learning new things every day and to me knowledge is everything. And I like to pass my knowledge on to others so they can learn.

 

[LLC5]

Back to my front end alignment procedure. I never said it's the ONLY way..............just MY way and it's accurate enough to provide smooth steering under all driving conditions. If the caster and camber angles are off very much the steering wheel will shimmy BAD when going around high speed corners and mine doesn't shimmy at all. Why? Because it's well within the specifications.

Do you just hate learning new things? Or do you just hate it when someone else knows something you don't? Heck, even at 68 years old I am still learning new things every day and to me knowledge is everything. And I like to pass my knowledge on to others so they can learn.

Within what "the specifications"? List the before and after numbers and have it verified by a competent alignment shop, anyone that cared about their work and integrity would want to know that the work was performed properly. Your "MY" way of proving that the alignment is within spec's is to drive it at an unknown speed and see if the "steering wheel will shimmy BAD when going around high speed corners and mine doesn't shimmy at all" ?????? Really, are you serious? That is your conclusive test that your alignment method works and is set to proper spec's? B.S. doesn't even come close.


Nobody hates learning new things except you. If your system worked and saved time and money, everyone would be all over it. Your way is just a waste of time and effort with unknown results. Clearly knowledge is not everything to you or you would put a higher importance on it and do some research.

 

[toobroketoretire]

Aligning Your Own Front End..................Really Easy Using My Method

On my '71 the alternator and idler belt pulley and mount bracket have to be removed to be able to get to the control arm shims. No big deal for ME but an alignment shop would have to charge extra time to remove and reinstall them. Just another reason why I enjoy aligning my own front ends. And quite frankly how many people do you know of who can align their own front ends? Not very many, huh? Once you see how adding or removing shims affects the caster and camber angles it gets real easy. On a typical C3 you start off with an 1/8" shim in the front and three 1/8" shims in the rear then go from there. I just finished making two full-length 1/8" shims and the next time I fool with it I'll put those shims in so I can recover the four 1/8" individual shims that they'll replace. The control arm bolts have a 6-5/8" center to center so if you want to make any just use 1/8" X 1-1/2" X 8" mild steel for each shim.

 

[kpic]

According to Bridgestone:

[h=2]What is Tire Alignment?[/h] Alignment refers to an adjustment of a vehicle’s suspension – the system that connects a vehicle to its wheels. It is not an adjustment of the tires or wheels themselves. The key to proper alignment is adjusting the angles of the tires which affects how they make contact with the road.


[h=2]How Do I Know if I Need a Tire Alignment?[/h] There are a couple ways to tell if your car needs a tire alignment. If you've noticed one or more of these indicators, you should have your alignment checked by a licensed service technician immediately.

• Uneven tread wear
• Vehicle pulling to the left or right
• Your steering wheel is off center when driving straight
• Steering wheel vibration

When a technician checks your tire alignment, he or she is mainly concerned with three things:
[h=3]1. Camber[/h] This is the inward or outward angle of the tire when viewed from the front of the vehicle. Too much inward or outward tilt, also known as negative and positive camber, respectively, indicates improper alignment and will need to be adjusted. Worn bearings, ball joints, and other wheel-suspension parts may contribute to camber misalignment.

http://www.bridgestonetire.com/cont...nsumer/bst/research/camber-tire-alignment.png

Looking at the above picture; there is a solid line labeled center line and a dotted line labeled negative and positive camber.
At the outer diameter of the tire, the space between the center line and dotted line are wider than near the center or axle of the tire.

Although the angle is the same, the horizontal distance is less as it gets closer to the center of the axle.

[h=3]2. Toe[/h] Distinct from camber alignment, toe alignment is the extent to which your tires turn inward or outward when viewed from above. If that’s confusing, just stand up and look down at your feet. Angle them inward toward the center of your body. When the tires on your car are angled the same way (remember, we’re thinking in terms of birds-eye-view), we call this toe-in alignment. Angle your feet outward and you have toe-out alignment. Both require adjustment.[/quote[

Again. the closer the measurement is to the rotational axis; the smaller it becomes... It is always more difficult to measure a smaller value to a larger one.

[h=3]3. Caster[/h] Your caster angle helps balance steering, stability, and cornering. Specifically, it’s the angle of your steering axis when viewed from the side of your vehicle. If you have positive caster, the steering axis will tilt toward the driver. Negative caster, on the other hand, means the steering axis tilts toward the front of your vehicle.[/quote[

Again as the solid line comes closer to the center of rotation; the smaller the distance between the solid line and the dotted line become. Angles do that.

It appears our eyes and ability to measure small distances are not quite the calibrated micrometer as toobroke's eyes are..

Then again, the above was courtesy of Bridgestone and what would they know as compared to toobroke...?

 

[dougelam]

I believe his camber and caster settings are probably equal on each side or at least close enough for simple driving.

His toe measurement is what I have a problem with, aside from telling people to try to balance a 3500lb car on chunks of wood, you physically can not stretch a tape measure from tire to tire with the car in the way!

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[dougelam]

Or at least I can't

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[kpic]

Doug,
I've rebuilt front ends and used the "old ways" to align them to get them to a real alignment shop. "Close enough for simple driving" isn't good enough for me.
All I know is as usual toobroke..'s methods disagree with everything I do know. The increments on his measuring tools are eyeball which aren't for me. A ruler is not as accurate as a modern alignment rack.

IMO and in my opinion only, a GM dealership (aka stealer-ship) and not all of them, does the best I've seen with a Corvette. The thought of aligning the tires myself (without tires) and doing some high speed cornering to test it is not on my list of things I plan to do.

 

[dougelam]

Doug,
I've rebuilt front ends and used the "old ways" to align them to get them to a real alignment shop. "Close enough for simple driving" isn't good enough for me.
All I know is as usual toobroke..'s methods disagree with everything I do know. The increments on his measuring tools are eyeball which aren't for me. A ruler is not as accurate as a modern alignment rack.

IMO and in my opinion only, a GM dealership (aka stealer-ship) and not all of them, does the best I've seen with a Corvette. The thought of aligning the tires myself (without tires) and doing some high speed cornering to test it is not on my list of things I plan to do.

The local Chevrolet dealership is the only place in town that my 02 Vette will fit on their wheel alignment rack.
Worth every penny to me.

I just need to find a place where I can test the "high speed cornering" for a wobble ☺

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[kpic]

The local Chevrolet dealership is the only place in town that my 02 Vette will fit on their wheel alignment rack.
Worth every penny to me.

I just need to find a place where I can test the "high speed cornering" for a wobble ☺

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We have an abundance of "test" roads here...

Check out Green River Cove road near Saluda NC. Head North off I-26 and it's the first left.

 

[dougelam]

Just after I bought my first, only and current vette 5 years ago we loaded up and headed down south.
From Michigan we cruised to Nashville TN. On the way back we took 65 north to Elizabethtown and turned right on some side road exit. We found some nice winding roads thru the hills.

Of course we spent the day following the Bourbon trail

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[toobroketoretire]

Aligning Your Own Front End

In just three weeks this thread has been viewed over 2700 times by people who are genuinely interested in aligning their own front ends. That really delights me because I have always been a do-it-yourselfer to save money and learn at the same time. By using my simple method any novice can achieve a quality front end alignment without having to pay someone to do it for them.

An "alignment machine" doesn't do the alignment as it only measures the caster, camber, and toe in values then the technician attempts to bring it into specs by adding/removing shims. So it's the technician who actually does the work and therefore the quality of the alignment rests on the technician's shoulders.

In this expensive world it's nice to know anyone can align their own front ends for very little expense and time.

 

[kpic]

Doug,
That is fun.. Here roads built years ago follow the easiest path through the mountains which makes for a lot of fun.. Pre-running them is highly recommended.

In just three weeks this thread has been viewed over 2700 times by people who are genuinely interested in aligning their own front ends. That really delights me because I have always been a do-it-yourselfer to save money and learn at the same time. By using my simple method any novice can achieve a quality front end alignment without having to pay someone to do it for them.

Are you sure they are genuinely interested in your "method" or the answers why your method is not the thing to do?

Personally, I enjoy the answers to you more than you. It is rare when Master Techs who have spent years working on literally thousands of vehicles explain matters in detail.

An "alignment machine" doesn't do the alignment as it only measures the caster, camber, and toe in values then the technician attempts to bring it into specs by adding/removing shims. So it's the technician who actually does the work and therefore the quality of the alignment rests on the technician's shoulders.

Except for you, no one said the alignment machine did anything but measure. You seem to have missed it is your measurement methods that have been questioned.
Others have said even though there are plenty of alignment machines; their choice of shops is based on the technician.

Toobroke... your reading comprehension is terribly lacking... That wasn't a slur; it was an observation that you have made obvious.

In this expensive world it's nice to know anyone can align their own front ends for very little expense and time.

Tires are expensive also and IMO, my life is priceless.

 

[DGVETTE]

Interest??

In just three weeks this thread has been viewed over 2700 times by people who are genuinely interested in aligning their own front ends.

I have viewed this thread many times but never for " interested in aligning their own front ends" purpose. Each day is another episode of "As the Wheel Turns". It is as if the Jury came in with a Verdict long ago but the Defendant is still pleading his Case.

FWIW. I have checked wheel alignment with some crude home tools so the concept is not new to me. But afterwards I always take vehicle for correct alignment at qualified facility. I know I cannot equal the precision of complex alignment equipment.