Dreaded NO START HELP

[CROOZ1N]

Ok so Friday night I load up the Vette with the wife and the dogs to go to see my folks. They Live in Tazewell Va which is about 120 miles from here one way.
We are driving along just fine when we decide to pull off at one of our usual pit stops at about 75 miles from home. As I am slowing down and getting in the turning lane I hit a trench thats been cut across the highway. Its about 12 inches wide and a couple of inches deep. They cut the trench in the concrete then filled it back with asphalt. The asphalt I guess has deteriorated and left this 2 in deep trench. Any way once I hit the trench and coast across the highway into the parking lot of the store the car dies and I think Oh Crap!!

Well Oh Crap was the nicest thing I said for a while as she wouldnt refire. So we all take a pit stop and I just let her sit for about 10 minutes, She cranks fine but wont start. I get under the hood and look for loose connectors and such. No deal. I crank her again and she acts like she wants to start and finally does but idles like crap. I pull out on the highway and am able to get her on down the road but missing pretty badly.
We finally get to Tazewell and Stop at the grocery store where she dies again and this time won't refire. Thankfully I am now close enough that my folks come pick us up for the night.

Saturday morning comes and we go back to check on the car. Still no fire when we crank. I jumper out the a-B terminals on the adl connector and nothing but 12 comes up.
We can here the fuel pump kick on and feel the line pressurize and smell gas when cranking so we feel like the gas situation is ok. I pulled the coil wire and hooked up a wire to it so we can see if its firing. We got fire. I again look at all the connectors I can get to and find nothing. I even took the ECM loose and checked that I didnt jostle anything loose inside when I hit that bump. No good.

So we call a roll back and get her to a local garage where they only work 1/2 day on Saturday. The mechanic seems pretty knowledgeable and he basically goes over everything I've already done. He does hook up a fuel pressure guage and sees that there is about 42-45 ponds when the key is turned on. Then I think he said there was like 40 psi when cranking. He hooked up a light to one of the injectors and we could see it pulsing when cranking. He pulled a plug and we could see that it was firing and wasnt fouled out.
They hooked up their computer to it and got nothing either.
Now he seems to think that the anti theft may have it shut down. Is this plausible?
The security light on the dash does flash while cranking but I thought it did that anyway until she started as part of the lamp test.

They have another shop close by that has a box they can hook up to bypass the security feature that actually came from GM. They said they would get that and hook it up Tuesday.

I dont particularly trust that this is the problem.
So I have 2 questions. Does anyone know of a decent C4 mechanic between Tazewell Va and Roanoke Va?

If the security system is not the culprit where should I help direct these guys or do I just pull the plug and have it trailerd home?

I have a FSM and the tools to work on it here but its not here.
I am an electronics tech and work on automation equipment so I think I have pretty good troubleshoting skills. I was trained as an automotive/Diesel Mechanic before getting into electronics also.

Lastly If we have fire and fuel and of course air why wont she start( The mechanic even tried to get it to fire with ether and still no dice.

Thanks for all the advice!!

BTW its a 1993 LT1 117k miles opti and wp HAve been replaced but I'd have to check exactly when. Probably @100k or so. It was before I got the car.

 

[gmjunkie]

If you have good Fire at each plug,If there is a pulse at the Injectors,and there is fuel and it's in time,It should at least Start,Pop or Fart!!
How Blue is the fire, or is it kinda Red??:confused
How many miles are on the engine??
I had a timing chain jump on a LT1 after hitting a large bump once,But it would pop and backfire through the exhaust and intake!
I also had one that acted as you explain at first,appeared to have good fire but a little red but wouldn't even Fart!! :ugh
It ended up being a bad coil!!

 

[CROOZ1N]

Engine has 117k. I cant really answer about the fire quality as I was cranking the engine. Dad looked at it when we were checking the coil and the mechanic was looking at the plug wire when I was cranking it at the garage.
BUt it wont even fire on ether that's the strange thing.

So I should have them check the timing at make sure that ALL the plugs are firing. What about the anti theft or the resister in the key? Could that be holding it out?

 

[gmjunkie]

PS. The one with the bad coil didn't set 1 code!
The one that jumped time,had more codes than the CIA!!

 

[CROOZ1N]

Thanks Junkie I ws hoping you would be on here this morning. I hope a coil is all that it is. That would be too easy. And that's usually NOT my luck.

 

[gmjunkie]

What about the anti theft or the resister in the key? Could that be holding it out?

Nope,Won't be that!! It's Cranking,It's got Fire(Maybe Not Hot Enough),Injectors are Pulsing, and It's got Fuel!!!
As I said,the one with the bad coil,Looked like enough fire to me,But after a couple hours of screwing with it I decided to change out the coil and it fired right up!! It's still kicking butt and taking names!!
You have another Problem!!

 

[Schrade]

Ok so Friday night I load up the Vette with the wife and the dogs to go to see my folks. They Live in Tazewell Va which is about 120 miles from here one way.
We are driving along just fine when we decide to pull off at one of our usual pit stops at about 75 miles from home. As I am slowing down and getting in the turning lane I hit a trench thats been cut across the highway. Its about 12 inches wide and a couple of inches deep. They cut the trench in the concrete then filled it back with asphalt. The asphalt I guess has deteriorated and left this 2 in deep trench. Any way once I hit the trench and coast across the highway into the parking lot of the store the car dies and I think Oh Crap!!

Well Oh Crap was the nicest thing I said for a while as she wouldnt refire. So we all take a pit stop and I just let her sit for about 10 minutes, She cranks fine but wont start. I get under the hood and look for loose connectors and such. No deal. I crank her again and she acts like she wants to start and finally does but idles like crap. I pull out on the highway and am able to get her on down the road but missing pretty badly.
We finally get to Tazewell and Stop at the grocery store where she dies again and this time won't refire. Thankfully I am now close enough that my folks come pick us up for the night.

Saturday morning comes and we go back to check on the car. Still no fire when we crank. I jumper out the a-B terminals on the adl connector and nothing but 12 comes up.
We can here the fuel pump kick on and feel the line pressurize and smell gas when cranking so we feel like the gas situation is ok. I pulled the coil wire and hooked up a wire to it so we can see if its firing. We got fire. I again look at all the connectors I can get to and find nothing. I even took the ECM loose and checked that I didnt jostle anything loose inside when I hit that bump. No good.

So we call a roll back and get her to a local garage where they only work 1/2 day on Saturday. The mechanic seems pretty knowledgeable and he basically goes over everything I've already done. He does hook up a fuel pressure guage and sees that there is about 42-45 ponds when the key is turned on. Then I think he said there was like 40 psi when cranking. He hooked up a light to one of the injectors and we could see it pulsing when cranking. He pulled a plug and we could see that it was firing and wasnt fouled out.
They hooked up their computer to it and got nothing either.
Now he seems to think that the anti theft may have it shut down. Is this plausible?
The security light on the dash does flash while cranking but I thought it did that anyway until she started as part of the lamp test.

They have another shop close by that has a box they can hook up to bypass the security feature that actually came from GM. They said they would get that and hook it up Tuesday.

I dont particularly trust that this is the problem.
So I have 2 questions. Does anyone know of a decent C4 mechanic between Tazewell Va and Roanoke Va?

If the security system is not the culprit where should I help direct these guys or do I just pull the plug and have it trailerd home?

I have a FSM and the tools to work on it here but its not here.
I am an electronics tech and work on automation equipment so I think I have pretty good troubleshoting skills. I was trained as an automotive/Diesel Mechanic before getting into electronics also.

Lastly If we have fire and fuel and of course air why wont she start( The mechanic even tried to get it to fire with ether and still no dice.

Thanks for all the advice!!

BTW its a 1993 LT1 117k miles opti and wp HAve been replaced but I'd have to check exactly when. Probably @100k or so. It was before I got the car.

A good mechanic between Tazemebro' and Roanoke? Yup - the one that plugged in the FP gauge, instead of saying some horsewaste diagnosis like, "Well, it might be the fuel pump, and we can replace that." I'd say THAT is an EXCELLENT mechanic UH HUH!

Still, static fuel pressure test (which was good), and pressure that maintains when cranking (ditto), will not show weak injectors, or a ruptured bladder in the FP regulator, since the pump pumps way more than gets used. Do a static bleed-down test, and write down pressure in time increments 10,15, or 30 s increments.

Any coolant missing?

Get ignition module tested at Advance / Zone.

There's 2 'batches' of injectors, I believe. Check all eight for pulsewidth fire. You got 1 batch dead betcha'.

You can do static timing check in your driveway.

edit:
Oops - no static timing check on opti :duh

 

[gmjunkie]

Still, static fuel pressure test (which was good), and pressure that maintains when cranking (ditto), will not show weak injectors, or a ruptured bladder in the FP regulator,

Good point,but usually with the diaphragm ruptured,they'll still start and run, but blow allot of black smoke!!

There's 2 'batches' of injectors, I believe. Check all eight for pulsewidth fire. You got 1 batch dead betcha'.

Yep,There Batch fired!!There again in my experience,they'll still start and run,Just rough as hell!!Wouldn't hurt to check the INJ 1 and INJ 2 fuses in the fuse panel at the right end of the dash!!Chances of a Injector on each bank shorting at almost the same time,would be slim to none!

 

[CROOZ1N]

A good mechanic between Tazemebro' and Roanoke? Yup - the one that plugged in the FP gauge, instead of saying some horsewaste diagnosis like, "Well, it might be the fuel pump, and we can replace that." I'd say THAT is an EXCELLENT mechanic UH HUH!

Still, static fuel pressure test (which was good), and pressure that maintains when cranking (ditto), will not show weak injectors, or a ruptured bladder in the FP regulator, since the pump pumps way more than gets used. Do a static bleed-down test, and write down pressure in time increments 10,15, or 30 s increments.

Any coolant missing?

Get ignition module tested at Advance / Zone.

There's 2 'batches' of injectors, I believe. Check all eight for pulsewidth fire. You got 1 batch dead betcha'.

You can do static timing check in your driveway.

edit:
Oops - no static timing check on opti :duh

Could you explain this further? How to check and check with what O- scope?

 

[CROOZ1N]

yes we checked the fuses in the panel under passenger side and the ones behind the battery. The ones behind the battery concern me some because they had some type of corrosion on them kind of whitish looking I thought it might be anti-oxidant goop but I'm not sure. Anyway we scraped the blades on all the fuses in that block and put them back in just in case but that didn't help either.

 

[CROOZ1N]

Ok so here is the update. The garage where we took it Saturday dicked around with it fo rhalf a day and couldnt do anything with it. They still maintain that the security system has it shut down.
My dad and a buddy of his then take the vette on a trailer to another garage to a mechanic Dad trusts. This guy thinks,just from the sound that the opti may be bad. He said he has a couple of tests that he can run to make sure. dad said that he may or may not get a chance to check it this evening but he'd call when he knew something.

So now I have a couple of questions for if that is the problem. Whats a decent price to replace the opti?
Should I go with an aftermarket unit?
If so which one from where. And should I go ahead and do the waterpump as well.

The WP has been replaced at least once. WP receipt from 1/9/06. Also have a receipt for a 250.00 cap and button and 90 dolar wires from 1/07/09.

Thanks again for the advice.

 

[gmjunkie]

The Opti is always the first to get blamed!!:L
I'd think that it would set some kind of code,usually a opti problem will set multiple codes!!I've only had to change 4 optis in my life and 2 of them wasn't the optis fault!!Before I'd wright off the opti,I'd be checking the 4 wire plug at the opti and the flat 4 wire plug to the opti harness under the right fuel rail cover about midway,Cleaning them up has probly saved 100's of optis!

As far as kind,I'm a GM Junkie!!

 

[CROOZ1N]

Thanks again Junkie BUT if it is bad should I use an aftermarket unit MSD dynaspark or the like. Whats a good price for labor and what else should be done at the same time. Waterpump ignition module etc.

 

[gmjunkie]

Thanks again Junkie BUT if it is bad should I use an aftermarket unit MSD dynaspark or the like. Whats a good price for labor and what else should be done at the same time. Waterpump ignition module etc.

I'd put a AC Delco on it if it was mine,But I guess thats just me!
Other people have had good luck with MSD,But I usually use stock!
I'd definitely put a water pump on it,either New or Reman!
Around here you'd be looking at probly $1400-$1600 to let a shop do it,depending on what all is done!!I try not to replace things that aren't necessary,but still want it done right!!

I'm about 3 1/2 hrs from Tazwell VA,thats up there by Bland!!Some Friends of mine own the Big Walker Motel!!

 

[CROOZ1N]

I deer hunt in Bland on a farmthere. 1400 bucks seems high to me but thats mainly because I almost never hire anypne to do the work for me. this time may be an exception though.

 

[gmjunkie]

I deer hunt in Bland on a farmthere. 1400 bucks seems high to me but thats mainly because I almost never hire anypne to do the work for me. this time may be an exception though.

That was just a guess,kinda depends on the Shop there Labor Rate and what all they find besides the Opti and where they get the parts!!
Most often some of the oil seals are leaking in the front of the engine under the Opti,Hoses Deteriorating,Plug Wires Deteriorating,Idler Pulleys Loose,Belt Tensioner,Belt,Possible Coil,Possible Ignition Module,That stuff can add up!!Heck some shops around here will hit you a extra $20-25 an hour Corvette Tax above there normal labor rate,and that still don't mean they know what there doing!:L:L:L

PS. Don't let them put on a Re-Man Opti from Advance or AutoZone,They sound like a good deal,but don't come with a new cap and rotor and you'll be doing it again in about a year!!

 

[92BlackVette]

I am an Advance Auto junkie, in fact my 92 is also known as a: 1992 Advance Auto Corvette. I have 150K miles on it and so far bought the following from there: water pump, EGR vacuum solenoid, belt, EGR, lower radiator hose, spark plugs, spark plug wires, rear end oil, and additive, rear output seal (ZF6), brake pads, brake booster, AC pressure sensor switch. Most of the above parts have lifetime warranty.

The Advance Auto - Opti w/ cap and rotor is: Part No. 84-1832 - Lifetime Warranty - $225

 

[Schrade]

Could you explain this further? How to check and check with what O- scope?

I think to confirm that one batch is NOT dead, is to put the test light on at least 5 injectors. Then you're assured of getting at least 1 injector from the second batch (I don't know what the grouping is of each 'batch').

It will take only a few minutes, and possibly you'll find a smaller problem that opti...

 

[CROOZ1N]

The GM Junkie Solves another one!!

It was the coil after all. So my folks are bringing her back home tomorrow.

Now to add insult to injury I drove my 97 Grand Cherokee to the grocery store a few minutes ago and coming back I lost power steering. The pulley blew apart. Aint that a kick in the head!! Hopefully I didn't get it too hot coming home.

 

[catbert]

Good stuff - all's well that ends well. This was an informative, well thought out thread. CAC folks really know their poop!