Ken's Engine Project... Part IV - 2003

[Ken]

Here's one to think about...

Many things conspire to cause me to think this way, but let's just consider this hypothetical situation:

Say I wanted to have a hot rod, which I already do - in my Corvette project. However, the Corvette is of 1987 vintage, so I will never be entirely legal (emissions-compliant), or even close, with the current set-up. Not that the engine won't run clean, after I eventually get it dialed-in and the oil leak solved but it will never pass the visual.

So... What if I took my engine and transmission and transplanted it into a vehicle that wouldn't be constrained by the current emissions laws (what is that now, '78 and older?).

I could put it in an older Corvette project that someone is stalled on and wants to get rid of (Dependant upon condition, maybe we could trade Corvette bodies? Doubtful.)

I could put the combination in a real hot rod, like a '29 highboy or something, with a 'glass body. Or I could build a fifties or sixties style hot rod with it.

I'm just thinking ahead because registration will come due in February and I still ain't driving it around much. Had it out again today - marking up the pavement with those funny black lines.

Oh well, I'm just ramblin' basically to fill y'all in with where it stands. I had it out today so I could take it to Scott's for the floor work, but I'll have to go back tomorrow. I just hate driving it with the oil dripping on the headers - it's embarrassing!

This thread was once again split on November 6, 2003. To view previous phases of this thread, see: My Engine Project: Part I, My Engine Project: Part II and My Engine Project: Part III.

 

[Fishman]

Ken... I took the C3 to C4 to C3 route because of exacting what you're talking about. Now that the car is 'old', I can skip out on a lot of the emissions, etc. Additionally, the car is a body with an engine... no high tech motor accessories or electronics to worry about at all. I just can't imagine what it will cost to do a restoration on a C4 or C5 30 years down the road... you'd be hooking it up to a computer looking for code instead of clippin' on a timing light. Don't get me wrong, the C4 was a much better engineered car, I liked it for totally different reasons than the C3. I have never driven a C5, I am sure it would only make me want one. But I do not ever plan on selling the '78... or hooking it up to a computer.

 

[Ken]

Man, what a day! :eyerole

I'm so friggin' tired and achy again, and to top it off I've got some bad arthritus or something - I am literally typing with one finger my hands keep knotting up so bad. :cry

Anyhow, I got it on a lift today and proceded to drop the pan. Not too difficult, but none too easy either. I had to drop the bracing out from the side frame rails to the crossmember, and of course I had to take the oil cooler adapter off in order to reach a couple of the bolts. With the pan off I could see where the gasket had bunched up and not flattened out when I tightened the pan bolts.

Glitch #1: I couldn't get another one-piece pan gasket today. I would've had to wait until Monday so we used a four-piece set that Will had in the shop, one with with cork side gaskets. (Where'd the thing come from I saw when I was putting this engine together, where someone was aghast that there were cork gaskets showing at one time on my block? Something about synthetic oil and cork leaking? Neither Will nor anyone else I've talked to has ever heard of such a thing.) Oh well, I'm puttin' it to the test now.

Good news: I am not leaking from the front of the pan anymore.

Bad news: Something at the rear is leaking worse than before, in the rear area near the bellhousing, in the sense of dripping on the header collectors. It's not necessarily leaking more oil, just that it's more oil collecting on the collectors, thereby producing a LOT more smoke - and wouldn't ya know it, FIRE! :eek

I actually lit it off for a moment there. I was trying to see what was causing the smoke,and was revving the engine a bit so that the headers were a little red, when all of a sudden there were flames! Knowing I was possibly going to find myself in this situation when I got it back on the road this year, I had my trusty dry chemical extinguisher at hand, but the flames quickly subsided. Man, I didn't know I could blow so hard! Guess that makes me a "Blowhard" eh? :L

I've about had it with this thing. Ya know, John Hiatt has a song where he sings about Smashing a perfectly good guitar..."

Well, I guess I ruined a perfectly good Corvette.

_ken

 

[Outlaw]

Man Ken, and I thought I was running into many problems through the Project...

How much damage did the Fire do???

Have you ever found out where the leak is in the rear??? Possibly Oil Sending Unit??? Rear Seal???

Keep us informed on your progress and hang in there...

Keeping our fingers crossed for possible good luck to you...

 

[69MyWay]

Ken,

First of all, let's look back at your project..your goals, and triumphs and learning points you have had along the way.

You started out with a mostly stock ultra clean 87 Z51. You had your fill of hassles and troubles from the 4+3, electrical glitches, and disapointments with the stock mill's lack of power.

You laid out a plan by gathering input from others and working with your local shops. I am not sure what your specific goal has been, but I know you have at least been shooting for 500 hp or so at the crank, giving you enough guts to smoke nearly anything on the road.

You have assembled a parts list sweet enough to make anybody jealous. You don't just do things, you analyze, debate, investigate, then execute your plans in a methodical order.

It seems to me after all is said and done, you are so close to reaching your goal, that it is getting difficult for you to see it anymore.

These problems you are having are NORMAL. Really, they are. You see, the magazines, and tv shows don't spend anytime talking about the leaks, squeaks, rattles, fires, glitches...because that is no fun. Just like Glamour magazine does not write about the models hemroid problems, or how often they have bowel movements. Get the point?

I think your difficult issue is the fact you don't have the immediate space and equipment to perform these repairs right in your garage. I take for granted...and frankly forget about all these headaches as it is just par for the course. Don't you remember the oil leaks I fought on Killer? They are cured now, and I hardly ever think about it (although I do often look under the car just to make sure she is still dry).

You were with me when the 90 ruptured the clutch in Gainesville. Who would have predicted that? Just a typical bump in the road when you push the envelope. For better or worse, you will have more things pop up, but that is the balance that makes the good times when you are being pinned to the seat, and gasping for air inbetween speed shifts that you totally forget about the other things. Especially when the tweaked up Z06 is in your rearview and you are still pulling away!

Finally, the emissions issue. That is a tough question. You know, my garage and spare bedroom is open to you. My Dad's workshop is now empty, and there is enough room there for you to play all day long. All you have to do is pack up, point east and start trucking! Outside of that, you may want to do the unthinkable. That is locate a stock TPI system, a whimpy little motor (maybe even a 305 from a F body) and be prepared to switch. I know, I hate the thought as well, but two weekends (in my case) or a week (in your case) of swapping could net you the results you need to pass the test and move on. My guess is you need the 305 TPI (My buddy has one complete, and running for $200 down the road from me), stock manifolds, cats, and ability to hook the wire harness back up. That is less work and expense than jerking the whole car apart and starting over with an older car, etc......

 

[Ken]

Thanks for the pep talk Chris, I need that.

Thank you too Outlaw (Man, I wish you had a name! :L)

 

[maxrevs85]

Ken, Are we really ever happy with these Dang things?? I get a little preturbed with mine too...still aint quite right...but the Idea of smoking a "tweaked up Z06 sure gets the blood pumping...Nice thought Chris. That was a pretty nivce pep talk , it helped me too

 

[Ken]

This thing is driving me crazy. :crazy

Ok, I spent the afternoon looking all around the engine while the car was on jackstands, and I was able to crawl around under it while it was running. The pan is not leaking a drop of oil as far as I can tell; I must have taken care of those leaks. I am still leaking a little oil from somewhere in the rear though.

The transmission was low on lube when I checked it again yesterday, so I suspect that I am leaking from the front bearing retainer - the collar that I had to switch when I installed the Tilton release bearing. I can't imagine how that could possibly be installed incorrectly, but the rebuild instructions for the ROD 6-speed contain reference to the assembly of the front bearing retainer to the case:

... being sure to line up drain slot with hole in case. If slot in gasket does not align with hole, cut hole in gasket.

So, I must have done something wrong when I assembled that piece, although Will says we did check to be sure everything lined up. Where else could I be leaking from on the transmission except the front retainer? I can see lube (or oil) in the area between the Lakewood bellhousing and the motorplate.

I ran it for quite a while today, where everything was up to temperature, but there was no sign of leak that I could detect. Of course, the transmission is still low on lubricant. (I haven't refilled it yet - no need. )

All because I got gears for brains and oil for blood. :L

_ken

 

[rrubel]

Ken, what is it that makes the car "emissions-liable" in CA? Can you declare it a street rod based on modifications, like some states, or age-based only? Can you put some of the smog stuff back on but not hooked up, so you can pass visual?

Me, I'd find some sweet mid-year rolling chassis and do an engine swap, change over all the brake hardware, and modernize the rest of the running gear if I had to switch bodies.

Or move to another state that's less... draconian... .

[RICHR]

 

[Ken]

Rich, I couldn't pass a visual (equipment) in Puerto Rico! :L The EPA's got their eyes (and noses) there too.

 

[rrubel]

But not all states do a visual. Maryland, for example. They make sure you have a cat, put the car on a dyno (if it's not too low, like my Vette is), and run it. Presto. Good for two more years. Oh, if you've got an OBD II port, they check for codes and don't even usually do the dyno run. And me, my Vette was exempted last time because of the height. Lower yours, and you'd be a shoe-in to get an exemption every time.
[RICHR]

 

[bossvette]

out here in the boonies we don't have any inspection, boy what a change from New Jersey :L

Your engine/trans would fit a C-3 and if you are really serious perhaps you could try here
or someplace simular, If you want to do it here, Im sure between Tom and I we could put you up

and probably put you to work on Cruis -fest 2004
Got to go

 

[Ken]

This just ain't fair! Two years in a row I go back east, now when we finally have a legitimate, and what promises to be a rather large, gathering of CACer's, I cannot afford to go.

Even if I sold the trailer, I would still hesitate to trek across country with it by myself. If we had something like the Power Tour to back me up, well then it'd be a different story. :L

It's a "Catch 22" - if I keep the trailer I can trailer the Vette there, but I won't have the money to go; while if I sell the trailer I'll have the money but won't be able to take my Vette. :crazy

When the celebrations were being held in Nashville this summer, we had some members of one of my local clubs pool together and hired a transport to take several Vettes back to Nashville, while the owners flew in. Now if we only had a few others from the west coast who were into trying the same idea with our gathering...

If I am able to attend, and I am not able to make reservations ahead of time, someone might just find me sleeping on their doorstep. :L

 

[bossvette]

you could sleep in Cliffs trailer:L

 

[DkBG]

Actually , you could ! I'll even pick you up at the airport if you want to fly in . Cliff

 

[Ken]

Anybody else running a ROD 6-speed?

Hey Chris, it just dawned on me that there are two plugs on the side of the transmission, and I have been using the top one as the fill level indicator.

The top plug you see is in line with the countershaft, but what is the plug located an inch or so below that? It certainly cannot be a drain plug because it is too high to fully drain the case. Maybe I've been overfilling the transmission and it's just been flying out the front bearing retainer.

I'm just trying to get out of pulling that trans again. :eyerole

 

[69MyWay]

I used the same one as you.??

Very strange

 

[bossvette]

I would think it would be the upper one also, there should be a drain on the bottom at the lowest point. Not having a Richmond I cant say for sure, but a phone call to them should be able to clear it up. My TKO holds 3 QTs ATF, I changed oil when I put the ripper in and just poured it in the shifter hole, sure beats trying to get oil in the hole in the side.:L :L
You should be able to find out the capacity of the trans from richmond or whoever sold it to you and drain and refill the proper ammount.
Craig sr

 

[WhalePirot]

Chris. kudos on the PEP talk.

Ken, sorry to hear of your woes.

I just broke my rear end by merely pushing the go-fast pedal to the floor on an on-ramp, in gear number two. Fluid, too! Crapola! Well, I did want different gears.

While not visiting the crunch site yet, I think I broke (tooth or teeth) from the ring gear. I can move the car but hear a periodic heavy metal thunk, like a bad U joint. It does get disheartening at times; takes a while to recharge.

I, too, have oil leaks, and burn marks, etc. Chris seems to know the drill, but I expect MY work to be perfect the first time. (At least I have learned to ask for directions when lost!)

Hang in pal.

You know, California has three zones of SMOG testing. We live in the most restrictive, but rural areas have NO TESTING at all. you know anyone that would register UR car in the boonies?

Out of states plates are an option, but subject you to other legal stuff, courtesy of DMV, in case you get stopped or called-on by a neighbor.

 

[Ken]

Hi Mike, I've been meaning to call you back to find out what happened as far as the outcome of the rear end was concerned, but I never know when you're gonna be in town or are out flying around. [size=-3](no airplane smilie )[/size]

It looks like both of us are going to be under there pulling things out; you gotta pull your rear end and I gotta pull my tranny.

I have to send off a message to Hib because when Chris and I talked today, he mentioned seeing something a while back where Hib had a problem with the ROD 6-speed leaking oil. He said that in that case they (Richmond) remedied the problem at no charge. I'm about at wits end until I pull the tranny. It also sounds to me that you're going to be required to do the same. Good luck!

I had mine out and about today. :cool I didn't top off the transmission fluids so it wasn't leaking much at all, but I could still see that over a period of time oil (lube - it appears to be pretty thick) was leaking and dripping down between the bellhousing and transmission, and also between the bellhousing and the motorplate.

That really throws me off! If it was leaking so that it ran down between the motorplate and the bellhousing, there should be oil or lube in the clutch area, yet I see no oil as far as I can tell. Then too, how can it be leaking between the bellhousing and the transmission??? There's nothing there to leak through!!! (see picture above)

And the clutch certainly doesn't appear to be slipping. When I got home today from Ruby's, as I started to put it in the garage I decided to check the roll-control device to make sure it was working properly. I pumped the brakes up, bumped the revs up a little, and then dumped the clutch and smoked the E/T Streets for a few feet. Man, that felt good. I can't wait until I can get it on a dyno again.

_ken