posting pics for Neelfryer............

[BarryK]

hi all

our new member Neelfryer (Sean) asked me to resize and post up these pics for him of a car he is interested in - see other threads by him.

Below are the two pics he sent - one of the stamp pad and the other of the car as a whole.

He is asking you wonderful forum experts your opinion of the stamp pad and whether or not you feel it looks original or looks like a possible restamp.

 

[neelfryer]

Barry
you're the coolest to put those up -- i just want people to be clear that this car is the 350hp vert in Tennessee -- not the 365 vert in california that has the extra stamp on the pad

do you guys think this one in the above photo is fake?

 

[XLR8]

Barry
you're the coolest to put those up -- i just want people to be clear that this car is the 350hp vert in Tennessee -- not the 365 vert in california that has the extra stamp on the pad

do you guys think this one in the above photo is fake?

Sean
I don't know anything about stamps... but I now know someone else who owns one of my DREAMCAR Midyears! Nice car!

Jane Ann

 

[JohnZ]

Pretty car, but the pad is a re-stamp. :cry

 

[ctjackster]

Pretty car, but the pad is a re-stamp. :cry

well, I was on pins and needles there for a bit, having privately advised him of the same thing but not being an old hand and wondering if I had steered him wrong - John, shouldn't the numbers on the VIN derivative be tightly aligned? And isn't that font a bit off?

 

[neelfryer]

thanks guys -- i'm not buying this car -- i thought this was a fake too -- it's a nice car but NOM and it's hard to get to buried in Tennessee -- i'm heavily leaning towards the 365 vert with the extra stamp on the engine pad...more to come -- sean

 

[ctjackster]

how about a completely different N Blue car? That other 365 is original engine, but you should not pay original engine price for it, and your bro would have a heluva time selling it later for an original engine price; think pretty, curvy girl with a big ol birthmark right accross her chest - kind of a buzz killer when you open up the hood . . .

 

[neelfryer]

think pretty, curvy girl with a big ol birthmark right accross her chest - kind of a buzz killer when you open up the hood . . .[/QUOTE]


I hear you but...ugly girls need love too...sorry -- bad joke -- I'm torn but leaning towards buying the birthmark girl -- my friend is going to Carlysle and is looking for a FF 65 vert for me --

but I really have been looking for a long time and it's true that cars have popped up along the way but there has always been an issue with the car -- a lot of NOM and color changes and I sent my firend in NY to see a 365 car in NJ that I was sure was the winner and the car just wasn't correct and the body didn't fit right and the front clip had been replaced -- but man it had looked flawless in pictures

If you know of a car -- I'm all ears and eyes -- I'm sitting on 40k (with a little room to grow for something really right) -- heck proteam has a 365 FF vert but I had a friend out here that had a bad experience with getting a car from them sight unseen and having to fight to send it back--

I keep falling back on the fact that the body is really nice on this car and it's a california car (socal) -- it's been dry -- no cage rot -- and I know the drive train is correct -- even though it has the birthmark --

I've lost faith that a better gal is gonna waltz by -- I'm putting the car on a lift on saturday and checking for the tranny number and making sure that the date cast on the block is an A or an early B --

I've also heard the opinion that NCRS is accepting of date correct blocks that have been decked and re-stamped -- why shouldn't they accept an original stamp with a blemish that the owner is telling me he has period receipts from the shop that stamped it outlining whatever work they did

jack -- you're right she isn't perfect -- but she's really close -- let me know if you know of another car...I'm still thinking but obviously leaning hard towards birthmark betty the FF 365....sean

 

[ctjackster]

"I've also heard the opinion that NCRS is accepting of date correct blocks that have been decked and re-stamped -- why shouldn't they accept an original stamp with a blemish that the owner is telling me he has period receipts from the shop that stamped it outlining whatever work they did"

Because the NCRS judging standard is as delivered fresh from the factory (not an accurate quote) and even dealer add-ons will get you ding-ed. That stamp pad WAS in as delivered shape until Mr. Idiot egotistical graffiti mad speed shop had to leave their mark. Plus, folks are VERY sensitive to weirdness in the area of stamp pads. So, if it is important to you (some folks reading this are rolling their eyes, because it surely isn't important to everyone) it will be an incurable defect (unless you deck with perfect broach marks and then expertly re-stamp - some folks here can tell you how it's done, but I won't name names).

For me, all I can say objectively is it should be reflected in the price, perhaps not as if it has a "Non-original but correctly-configured engine" (i.e a "restoration" engine) but not as if it was ready to top flight either. And at $40K, it might not be reflected in the price - but then again, pure NOM 65s in great shape are now coming close, so that pricing point may be fair. If I were buying the car and numbers were not important to me, I would feel good about it if I could take it sub-$40. And I STILL say you should pull the block casting date to cross-check the validity of the block.

 

[jreeves]

whats da motor-vation?

Neel

I am having trouble getting a handle on this. If this is a "gift" for your brother, he will have zero investment in the car, and any future resale will be all profit anyway. But I have never bought a gift with resale in the picture to begin with. You need to consider what "HE" is going to do with the car. (Drive it everyday, attend Cruises and local shows, go for NCRS awards, let it sit in the Garage thinking its appreciating and dreaming that someday he will sell at Barrett-Jackson.) In many cases, the stamp makes no difference

 

[neelfryer]

Jack, jreeves -- both great points -- I don't know what he will do -- a mutual friend believes that he will never want to sell it -- he and I have a ss chevelle vert that we restored together (we paid for the work piece by piece) -- and I'm not sure if he won't want to ultimately sell the car to buy a house

so...yes it would be all profit but I want to give him and the car the best "upside potential" -- because I know him/us -- we will want to take this car up a level -- I'm really frustrated that the stamp issue exists -- otherwise I wouold already ahve the car

I'm even now considering looking at 66 and 67 small block verts -- but he was born in 65 which is where the original idea for the gift came from .... I'm all over the map -- all I know is that I'm going to put the car on a lift on saturday and look at it for a third time -- with cash to make a deal....but I really think I have a firm number in my head that I think he may balk at ... and I will walk away

anyone know any matching number cars out there -- 65 327 verts FF 4speed ? seriously guys -- even guys you thought weren't ready to sell -- lemme know -- sean

 

[67HEAVEN]

This is what the Corvette hobby has come to?

Perfectly good cars, excellent body/paint, sound drive-train, looking like they'd be a joy to own and drive............and the entire focus is on some numbers stamped on a part of the car. I don't get it.

Oh, I understand the point being made........but I just don't get it. IMHO, this has come about as a result of the Corvette hobby turning into the Corvette "investment" hobby.

Way back in my teenage years I came to accept, even expect, that I would pay for my love of cars. I never considered the "what will it be worth in 20 years" question.

This is "not" a bash at NCRS, nor NCRS members. They are truly among the elite in this hobby for their knowledge and willingness to share that knowledge.

What burns me is the focus on those little numbers. The engine, transmission, IRS, etc. could all be the exact same pieces that came with the car from St. Louis, but God* help us if the numbers are lost in a decking, etc. Oh, I know, it'll be the same engine........but the numbers........the numbers. :cry

Frankly, I hope that this fixation continues and even grows. That'll free up a large number of sweet, very serviceable, and desirable (to me anyway) solid axle and midyear Corvettes for me to pick up at reasonable prices.

:crazy

Sean, check the cars out mechanically, structurally, etc. and then buy your brother the nicest driver you can afford.
:bang

 

[JohnZ]

well, I was on pins and needles there for a bit, having privately advised him of the same thing but not being an old hand and wondering if I had steered him wrong - John, shouldn't the numbers on the VIN derivative be tightly aligned? And isn't that font a bit off?

Yup, the VIN stamp is WAY wrong (spacing, alignment, two different font sizes, etc.), and there are issues with the engine plant stamp too, and with the surface.

 

[JohnZ]

<<I've also heard the opinion that NCRS is accepting of date correct blocks that have been decked and re-stamped -- why shouldn't they accept an original stamp with a blemish that the owner is telling me he has period receipts from the shop that stamped it outlining whatever work they did.>>

NCRS judging will only pass a pad and stamps that "appears" to be original; pad judging techniques and pad re-stamping techniques continue to advance at about the same rate; if it doesn't "appear" to be original, it won't fly, and the NCRS pad-stamp macro-photo library of 8,000 original pads for direct comparison with engines built on the same day and hit with the same gang-stamp (including known factory anomalies) is the ultimate reference.

Having said that, the added speed shop stamp would most likely only result in a maximum 38-point deduction, as it defaces the original pad surface. If the engine plant and assembly plant stamps were deemed original, they'd get full judging credit (25 points each). That pad would attract attention due to the speed shop stamp, but wouldn't be a major deduction if the rest of the pad appears to be original.

 

[ctjackster]

umm, okay, I am glad to see the opinions coming out, and I alluded to the fact that there would be some strong opinions on this topic. Fact is, original engine is a huge component of a C2's value, like it, rant about it, or not. Hence my advice - if having a funky stamp pad is not going to be interruptive of your (or your brother's) plans for the car (like pursuing Top Flight) then simply ensure that the issue has been factored into the price you pay, since it is a component of value.

As for me personally, my 65 is largely original, and certainly has the original engine and drivetrain - that's kind of cool to me (time capsul kinda stuff), especially so when I dust some fart can buzz buzz car in a stoplight war with my 40 year old stuff . . .

You don't have one [now], so it is not suprising to see you don't support the attraction of an original engine car. But when I go to sell my 65, if I sell my 65 (there comes a time for everything) it will likely fetch what I have it insured for (which is less than I have into it), or more. Your beautiful car (which I really like, by the way) is likely insured for what you have into it, but, unfortunately, the market doesn't always respond on that basis when such cars are sold.

And let's not forget the fact that many of us used the "buying an appreciating asset" notion when considering the C2 purchase, or making ourselves feel even wiser for having made the C2 purchase . . . some of us are real tightwads, and need to justify things economically. I still keep mental track of the money I put into the car, and keep it under the likely resale value of the car - I love driving the thing, and if I can do so for "free", all the better. It's magical, actually.

Now my boat on the other hand, that thing just leaks money, mostly in the area of simple depreciation year over year. It pains me to think of the boat in such terms, but its a cold truth.

 

[BarryK]

I have mixed feelings on the numbers matching thing myself.
My '65 is a numbers matching original motor and tranny car and thatr's what I was looking for when I purchased it. Mostly my reasons for buying the car was to drive and enjoy it but at the same time I figured that like it or not with the market value on these car currently, the money I was going to spend might as well also be partially an investment so why not get a car that probably would retain it's value the most and even hopefully appreciate over time- and that means a numbers matching car. Now, like anything else, there is a chance the market will crash on these cars someday and my theory (and money) are out the window but at least I can still enjoy driving it. I figure at the very least I'll be able to enjoy the car for many, many years and at worst if I ever had to sell her I probably won't lose money on the deal. I wish I could say that about many of the stocks i have............
On the other hand, now that I have a numbers matching car and glad I do, the next older vette I hope to eventually add to the garage will most likey be a NOM car. There are things I'd like to change on these cars and make it the way I want it but on my '65 it's too original to do that to but on a NOM car I won't feel "guilty" about doing something different or making it non-stock.
Would I make a numbers matching car into a resto-mod - hell NO, but would I be willing to do that to a NOM car - hell YES.

 

[JohnZ]

Now my boat on the other hand, that thing just leaks money, mostly in the area of simple depreciation year over year. It pains me to think of the boat in such terms, but its a cold truth.

Oh, yeah, boats....there's a great subject :cry . Back in the 70's, started with a Cal 25, traded up to a Cal 29, then up to a Cal 34 (with not too much pain at the time, as values weren't depreciating like they are now), and was just about to trade up again to a Columbia 38 when I came to my senses and sold everything. Also had a 46' CC Constellation at the same time that I had bought cheap (relatively speaking) from an owner who was going bankrupt, and sold it too (two weeks before the second gas crisis hit - talk about luck!). Haven't had another boat since (huge hole in the water into which you pour obscene amounts of money)

 

[BarryK]

my best friend had a boat for many years and he and I would meet at the dock every Fri afternoon in the summer and be out on it all weekend returning late Sun evening. Whoever got to the boat first filled it with gas and got her ready until the other one showed up and we were off. After the first or second season of this i mentioned how much i really loved being out on the boat and was considering getting one of my own. he looked at me like I grew 3 heads and reminded me of what I was already very aware of but convieninetly "forgot" - how much time and money he CONSTANTLY put in to maintain and fix the boat not to mention the docking fees, winter storage fees. etc. and said I was an idiot to buy my own boat since as long as he had a boat than I had a boat to use and enjoy.
For one of the few times in my life I was smart enough to listen to him and take his wise advice and never bought one. To this day I would still love to have a nice boat - my "dream boat" being a 40' - 45' Fountain but not only the cost of the boat itself but the maintanice is enough to have me keep not buying one.

 

[neelfryer]

keep it coming guys...because although I haven't been in the vette game yet -- I've been buying muscle cars since I was 17 (I'm now 37) .... and I have found myself on the wrong financial end of the hobby many times ....however

I recently sold a 69 GTO 4 speed vert and made 12k...I have to be honest...I didn't buy the car or restore the car with the idea of reselling it and definitely not for making money -- I held the car for 5 years while I continued to improve it

Many times I thought I was "upside down" in the investment part of it -- I was pleasantly blown awayby the e-bay response and the man who -- sight unseen wired me 40k for the car -- but GTO has the Pontiac Historical Society that issues build sheets that are perfect birth certificates of those cars

you can't fake those -- restamping goes on in the GTO world and the shelby world but I have always had the impression of the Vette guys being the most insane about "numbers matching"

I will admit I kind of like their/your insanity about the numbers -- I like originality -- I love it -- I'm not a big restomod guy -- I like heaven's comment about buying it and enjoying it...I'm leaning that way ...

But you all know how I feel before forking over the 4 huge stackes of 100's I can't help but feel like the chump who's getting rooked -- and many of you have said -- keep looking -- I fire back with ..."find one!"

I checked the barrett jackson results to see what they were bringing and it's all over the place from 40-75....I'm baffled but moving forward

I'm only concerned with the ding in ultimate upside -- because I ma someone who once put 22k into a 68 mustang california special (not that special) -- it was perfect -- I sold that car for 12.5 -- my friend said to me..."you just restored the wrong car" -- I just want to feel good about spending money on the car

I'm bummed I didn't buy this disastr 65 off e-bay that was complete and original but needed the world -- it was 26k -- would not have made a pretty gift but together my bro and i could have reached for the stars

are there any NCRS judges on the forum that would toss an opinion on this fire -- I liek that last post about the "deductions" -- it gives me hope

I'm obviously trying to rationalize buying the 365 car -- i just want to feel like it was a great gift and I did well in the deal....i'm rambling...sean

 

[BarryK]

are there any NCRS judges on the forum that would toss an opinion on this fire -- I liek that last post about the "deductions" -- it gives me hope

Yes there are and one of them already has replied to you. JohnZ is one of the most knowleagle people on the forum and is also an NCRS judge - AND was there when these cars were built (literally there).