Question: TA rebuild. . .what are the odds?

[Bolisk]

I've been slowly rebuilding my trailing arms this winter. Today I finally go arround to setting up the bearring end play. So I installed the races, got out the setup tool and went to work.

Now, I've read many papers on how to rebuilt trainling arms. But I've decided to follow Gary's walk through at Digital Corvettes. Additionally, I've been told by seemingly everyone that it is impossible to get the end play dialed in (1.5 to 2 thousands) with the stock shims.

Well. . .I appear to have been extreamly lucky. . .as the first one I did. . .yielded exacly 2 thousands of an inch. Is that possible? I could not believe it. The other wheel, I could not get dialed in and I'm having shims grinded down at a machine shop.

So. . .I gues my question is. . .is it possilbe that my fist try was just really lucky. . .or did I do something wrong?

-JR

 

[GTR1999]

possible but most times I checked the original shims they were loose. Add to that the face of the spacer,shims,and flanges are usually beat up and out 005+ or more. I don't bother to reuse the original shims anymore, I just parallel grind all the mating surfaces then fit a shim to size. When I first started to do these I found that endplay may change from setup tool to install if those parts are not perfectly flat. I do realize most do not have access to a surface grinder so you just have to be sure about it. Once the bearing is pressed on forget about trying to remove it and reshim,sometimes you may be lucky but usually the bearing is destroyed.
Be careful with the grease used,no you don't need "special" forumlas that some vendors say they have made up but I wouldn't use the mobil 1 anymore. I use Timken grease or Lucas red & tacky. Same with the seals, there are cheap parts kits out there that have cheap seals, I use only CR seals on the T/A's.

 

[Bolisk]

woops. I don't mean the "original" shim. . .when I say "stock".

I got a new shim kit. And I found a shim in that kit that got my end play to .002. That's what I was trying to say. The origional shims were WAY off.

Actually before I disassembled everything. . .I could actually feel quite a bit of end play.

After finishing the driver side. . .(the one I was able to get to .002) with a shim from the standard kit. . .I noticed that the endplay was mostly gone (because of the grease?) and the spindle would easily turn with one hand. . .but was firm. From your paper. . .I assume this is correct.


Question about the other side though. I took your suggestiong and had the shims machined down (parallell grinded) to adjust the end play. But I've noticed something that concerns me. with the setup tool installed and torqed to 100ft lbs. . .when I spin the tool. . .during part of the rotation . . . I feel a drag. Like something is catching. Any thoughts?

 

[GTR1999]

sounds like they're too tight. Recheck only using spindle oil on them. At 100 ft/lbs they should spin without any binding.
Sounds like you lucked out with the shim. I don't care for those kit shims for several reasons but as long as you have it together with 002 endplay and smooth rotation you should be ok.

 

[Bolisk]

Yeah. . .I would say it was too tight. . .but I have .003 of end play! So I don't know why. . .it's dragging through part of the turn. I didn't have light spindle oil. . .so I used 10w30 Mobile1.

Since I'm at .003 with this one. . .I know I need to bring it down another .001. . .but I'm hesitant with the binding.

Could it be that the races aren't seated right. . .or could it be the spacer is out of parallel and off of a right angle to the shaft? It will spin freely for about 3/4 of a turn. . .then you feel it gradually get tighter. . .then it lets go. Now, one other peice of info that I can share. I put the dial indicator on the inner bearing. . .and the the end play would fluxuate as I rotated. It would lift as it got tighter. . .then it would drop when the tention releaed.

Any thoughts?

 

[spikebot 81]

Years ago while working as a maintance mechanic in a idustrial facility a demo was presented by the local timken bearing supplier. Very good demo on installation, troubleshooting, lubrication, ect. All types of bearings where discussed. The part that I remember most was the rep saying that all bearings are made like swiss watches. If bearings are droped, beat on, or miss used in any way they are junk. Maybe its possable you have a defect and that is causing the bind. Just something to think about.

 

[Bolisk]

So I took the races out in order to inspect the mating flange / chin in the bearing housing. I figured there might be a bur or somethin keeping the races from seating. I did find a couple of questionable areas. So I sanded the high spots down with a peice of 150 grit black sand paper. . .and everything looked good. So I re-installed the races. . .and tried to setup the bearrings again. I had a few shims machined down to the correct size. . .but I still have a slight binding when I rotate the setup tool. The weird thing is that the binding does not appear to happen in the same spot of rotation. It appears to be random.

So I think I'm going to order another set of bearing and races. and see if that makes a difference. The next question I have is. . .

is it ok for me to remove and re-insall the races. . .or is that a bad idea. I ask for future reference.

 

[Bolisk]

Just thought I would complete this thread.

I discovered to root cause of the binging in my bearing test setup. Turns out the outer race was loose in the housing. As some point in the cars life, the rear ourter bearing seized. . .and spun the outer race in the housing. You could actually feal the lip in the housing where the race was spun.

I contacted a local covette shop and got was able to get a used origional correct housing. I cleaned it up. . .and testing the bearings again. . .and everything went very smoothly. Both TA's are done. . .they look like new. . .and they are both set to .002 end play.

I now have to shim the rotors a tad. One had .003 of runout, and the other had .005.

-JonR

 

[shrekviper]

Congrats JR.
I'll be tackling this job in the summer. Did you use a knock-out tool to get the spindles out or a spindle press?
Scott

 

[Bolisk]

I highly recommend doing this project in the winter (unless you live in a warmer climate), when your car is out of commission for a bit of time.

This project tends to lead to a common boat owner disease of "twofootitus". Which for boaters means, "if only my boat was two feet bigger", which leads to an endless succession of continues upgrades. This type of disease tends to occur with rebuilding your trailing arms.

Once you get the TA's out. . .you say to yourself, "hey, while I got these out. . .I might as well restore my half shafts", which leads to, "hey. . .I've gotten this far. . .why don't I redo the strut rods", which inexorably leads to , "hey. . .I've gotten this far why don't I pull the spring and diff. . .and clean them up too?". Then once you have all that stuff out. . .you will notice that you can easily paint the vast majority of your frame. It's a never ending cycle of fun. . .but lengthy projects.

Now. . .here is what I have learned.

It will cost you at the very least, the same amount . . . but most likely way more . . . to do this job yourself. . .verses having this job done by a pro shop like Gary (more on Gary later).

If you choose to do this job yourself . . . you MUST get a set of specialized tools. Here are the bear essentials:
1) 1” Micrometer (that measures .001 of inches)
2) A dial indicator with armature and magnetic base (that measures .001 of inches)
3) Spindle knock out tool (forget the spindle press plate tool . . . it’s pointless and it’s really good a bending the break caliper mounting plate . . . I know from experience)
4) Spindle install tool (this is a pressing device that should not be confused with the spindle press plate tool. This tool is used to install the spindle and properly seat the new bearings in the absence of a proper shop press. If you have a shop press. . .then you will not need this tool).
5) Bearing setup tool
6) Bearing removeal tool. (used to press the outer bearing off the spindle)
7) TA Bushing flaring tool.
8)) Shock mount knock out tool

ALL of these tools (except for the TA Bushing flaring tool, the micrometer, and the shock mount knock out tool) can be bought off ebay for a HECK of a lot less than any of the corvette parts vendors. I got very good set from this guy: CORVETTE REAR SPINDLE - AXLE- MASTER TOOL SET:eBay Motors (item 280423615044 end time Nov-24-09 09:38:40 PST)

Hey may still be selling sets. The one I got was new. . .and was very good. The trailing arm bushing install tool can be easily found on ebay as well.

Now, you will notice that after buying the tools. . .you will already have spend almost as much as it cost to have a shop do it. It’s going to cost you somewhere between $300 and $600 in additional parts when all is said and done. It all comes down to, how “new” are you going to make them look. . .and which parts you choose to replace. . .rather than restore. . .and what must be replaced. If your spindles are shot, those cost ~$150 a piece for good USA made ones. If your bearing housings are shot. . .that can also cost ~$250 a piece for good original. . . .which is what most sites sell. The only place I found that makes “new” after market housings (which don’t really look right) is Volunteer Corvette. . .and those run ~$125.

 

[Bolisk]

Continued:
Now, to save on cost . . . my I split the cost of the tools with a buddy of mine who also needed to do his trailing arms. This is a good way to go. . .and it’s nice to have a second mind on the job to ensure you do things right.

Now, having said all this, my friend was doing the TA’s for his ’65, and I was doing them for my ’70. All the parts for these two years are interchangeable. BOTH of my friends spindles where shot. . .the threads were boogered and had major grooves in the journals. . .ouch. . .$300 for new spindles. My spindles were ok. . .but one of my bearing housings had a spun race . . . which keep the new race from being held in place during the rebuild. I was lucky enough to get a good used housing from a local corvette shop. . .but I have yet to be slapped with the bill for the part. . .and I’m sweating over it.

You will need to find a local machine shop that is willing to do small jobs, like parallel grinding your shims to the correct thickness. Cost me $20 to have two shims done at my local shop.

I was lucky enough to have a friend with a sand blaster. His was the little sears 50 gallon deal. . .and it tool two full days to blast all the parts. . .as that sears tool is not very fast (don’t consider buying a sand blaster unless you have at least an 80 gallon tank attached to it. . .cause it will be constantly running). If you don’t have a friend expect to pay decent money to have a shop clean the parts for you. Do yourself a favor, and duct tape the areas you do not want blasted yourself. You will do a better and probably more correct job.

 

[Bolisk]

Continued:
Now . . . if you are still interested in doing this job yourself . . . knowing full well that it will cost you more to do it yourself . . . then congratulations . . . you are just as nutty as me and the rest of us! Having said that it is FAR more satisfying to have done the job yourself. You will have a blast doing the work. . .and you will learn more about your car. What could be better?!?!?!?

HOW TO DO IT:
Now to actually accomplish this job correctly . . . the first and only step is to read Gary’s entire thread: http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77000

Read it and re-read it until you have the damn thing memorized and do not need the thread to accomplish the job. Try to ignore the “haters” that posted in that thread. Gary knows what he is talking about. . .and is more than willing to help out if you get stuck. You will notice that he posted responses to my questions above. I did EVERYTHING that Gary suggested.

I only made three deviations from his thread. The first, I used the off the shelf Valvoline GM high temp wheel bearing grease. He used Mobile 1 for a while. . .but you will notice in that thread that the Mobile 1 formulation has changed. . .and even he has switched to a different brand.

The second, I just got the Timken Wheel bearing and seals kit from Volunteer. So I just used what ever seals they gave me. . .and not the CR brand that Gary uses. The Timkin bearings from Volunteer are USA made (or at least the ones I got were).

The third . . . I did not put RTV or any other sealant on the outside diameter of the seals.

 

[Bolisk]

Continued:

Some missing information that I’d like to share. . .

So if you follow Gary’s process . . . you will at some point be wondering a few things.

1) Where do you get the flat hex screws that he used to mount the rotors to the spindles . . . and what were the lengths? ANSWER – You can get them at ACE hardware, you will need 10, and you want the 1/2” lengths. Any longer and they will hit the parking break assembly. REMEMBER to recess drill the rotors so that the screws are counter sunk below the face of the rotor. . .or the screws will affect how the wheels mount to the rotors. NOTE: ACE is the best place to get all fasteners. In most cases you can save a but load by just getting what you need there. . .as opposed to the Vette parts vendors. ACE even has most of the castle nuts you will ever need.
2) Where do you get the shim stock to shim the rotors to the spindles? ANSWER – A few places. . .and you have multiple options. You can make your own shims, ala Gary, or you get buy the Raybestos rotor shims. I did the later. Here are the links to both. Shim stock: http://www.mcmaster.com/#stainless-steel-shims/=588z20, Shim discs: http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php?carcode=1041006&parttype=13714&a=FRc1041006k1037857 – OR - http://www.dmauto.com/web/dmauto/Catalog/NAPA_ECAT/1999/Pontiac+++++++++++++++++++++++/Firebird++++++++++++++++++++++/3.8+L+231+CID+V6++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++/3/3004/ Don’t be alarmed by the number of cars that this disc shims fit. NOTE: don’t forget to drill a hole in the shims for the parking break adjustment holes.

 

[Bolisk]

NOTE: If you buy fasteners at ACE make sure you pay attention to the GRADE of the fastner. THAT IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT!!! I always go for the same grade that the origional fastener was. . .and if they still don't have it. . .then I go with the vette parts vendors. Don't mess with your safty.

Also. . .do some research. . .sometimes the vette parts vendors bundle stuff in packages. . .and if you need only one of those parts that are bundled (like the washer that holds to flange to the spindle). . .you will have to buy the set that comes with the spindle castle nut and cotter pin as well. So in cases like that. . .don't go to ACE. . .as you will wind up with a whole slew of duplicate fasteners.

 

[Bolisk]

Continued:

Lastly. . .here are some tips that I picked up.

1) This should be obvious. But put the car up on GOOD jack stands. Put the whole the car up. Then using the cars spare tire jack. . .and a block of wood, support the front of the car at the front cross member. You will be taking a lot of weight out of the rear. . .and you do NOT want the car to fall forward off the jack stands.
2) When you remove the shock mount (with the knock out tool) you may find it difficult to hammer out to mount. . .then remove the strut. This is because when the TA is all the way down. . .the strut actually torque’s over and wedges it’self on the bolt. Try jacking the TA up so that the end of the strut (the one attached to the TA) is not torqed over on the mount. It should be easier to get the mount out. . .then the strut should easily fall away.
3) When removing the TA’s, in 90% of the cases your TA’s will be seized to the cross bolt. You will not be able to get the bolt out . . . and your only resourt is to cut the TA out. You will need to borrow or buy a saws all. Get a set of Milwaukee TORCH blades (9” minimum length). DO NOT TRY TO CUT THROUGH THE RUBBER BUSHING. . .because there is a hardened steel inner sleeve that you will NEVER get though. Some people have but it took them 2 or more hours to cut through one side. This is exhausting for both you and the tool. The EASY way to do this is to look carefully at the assembly. From the inside wall of the frame. . .there will be a stack of shims plates. . .then what looks like a THICK washer, Then a thin washer. . .then rubber. . .then a thin washer. . .then the TA itself. You want to cut between the THICK WASHER. . .and the LAST SHIM PLATE. If you do this correctly. . .you will have the TA out in less than 15 mins. Support the end of the TA with a jack while cutting. . .that way parts will not fly out when the cut is made. . .and the TA will not fall to the floor.

All add more as I think of it. Sorry for the length . . .

Feel free to ask questions as this stuff is all REALLY fresh in my memory.

 

[Bolisk]

To answer your question more directly. I mentioned it above. But I did NOT use the press. . .as it bent my friends break caliper plate. The knock out tool seems harsh. . .but it was honest and direct. Just make sure that you proper support the TA when doing it. . .and have something to catch the spindle when it comes out.

 

[GTR1999]

Sounds like you handled them pretty good Jon. I have one of those spindle press tools as well and never used it yet. Probably sell it as I drive them out with the hammer tool and 5 lb hammer 99% of the time.
Even that rotted arm I'm working on now over on DC came out with the hammer with no damage. The spindles are still good and with some reconditioning are better then new.

 

[Bolisk]

Yeah! I'm actually really supprised by how well they came out! I was really nervous about doing them myself. . .but figured that I got into this hoby to do projects just like this. I figured if I screwed them up. . .then I would could always send them to a pro like yourself. Well see how well I did when I get the car put back together in the spring. You might still get these in the mail.

I'm a little surprised that the previous owner re-used the old spun housing when he re-did just the bearings about 20 years ago. Maybe this was what was making that "wub-wub-wub" noise in the rear when I drove my car. Scary.

I'm debating doing my diff at this point. . .how much harder is that?

-JonR

 

[shrekviper]

JonR,
Wow! Not only should someone read Gary's thread, but yours as well. I've gotta get this done one way or another as one of my spindles is shot. I took it into a reputable shop (non-corvette) to get the parking brake shoes replaced and they found the spindle threads were stripped on one side and couldn't find a replacement spindle in time so they tack welded the nut onto the spindle as a bandaid. Don't worry, I put it on a trailer and now it's sitting in storage until I get back this summer. I already have a new spindle and plan on doing the parking brakes and bearings for both sides. I'll do my best to accept that my car won't be "two-feet longer" and resist the temptation of going overboard. But, eventually I'll have to change the rear shocks, springs, and bushings. There I go...two-feet longer.
Like you, I enjoy working on my car (driving it more though) and getting the satisfaction of completing these jobs myself.
Thank you very much for posting your experience for others to learn from.
Scott

 

[Bolisk]

A good place to stop is the diff.

you have to take the shocks off to get the TA out. . .and that take literally 3 minutes.

In order to get the TA out you have to disconnect the leaf spring from the TA's. . .so you might a well just take it off and replace it while you are at it.

The struts are also mostly removed when you do the TA's so why not do them too. You will want to replace the bushings on those as well.

The next thing would be the half shafts and u-joints. You don't have to do these. . .I did. . .but that is also a good place to stop.