Tried it again and still not fixed!!

[BarryK]

well, the saga continues.
you may remember about a week or so ago I posted about how I took my '65 in to my mechanic to get the distributor rebuilt, the timing set, and basically just get her running correctly.
After getting all the parts from LICS and having him rebuild the distributor and doing everything he wasn't able to get the timing set correctly and told me the balancer slipped (this was already the 3rd time he had the car in to try to get it running right) and I needed to get a new balancer and he would install that and that should fix it. Since I now had spent almost $800 in parts and his labor over the 3 shop visits I lost confidence in him and got recommendations for another mechanic in my area. Everyone from my Vette club ALL recommended I see another guy not too far away. He loves working on these old cars and is an ex-racer. I figured OK, i'll give this guy a shot.
Dropped the car off Mon. night and picked it up this afternoon. He SUPPOSEABLY checked the distributor, the timing, the advance, and confirmed proper TDC. Also adjusted the valves - there were too tight.He said the bolt on the balancer was also loose.
He replaced the points in the distributor which just been replaced 2 weeks ago, replaced the sparkplugs because he said they were the wrong type.
After all this the car runs worst now than it did before I dropped it off to him!!!! It still breaks up over 5500RPM and when I let off the gas the idle now won't fall below 1100rpm most of the time. When it does drop below 1100rpm at idle it takes a long time for it to do it than it feels like it want to stall out and I have to keep goosing the gas to keep her running.
I'm really getting p***ed off now!!! why can't I find someone to get this car to run right. I'm now into this issue for approx $1100 and it's getting worst instead of better.
Sorry, I know i'm venting here but i'm too the point of such frustration that I just don't know what to do.
last time I posted about this everyone gave me great advice on how to fix it but the problem is I can't do the work myself.
I've wanted this car since I was 12 and it was a lifelong dream to finally get her but even with the short time I've had her I've had such bad luck I'm almost ready to throw in the towel. I know the idiot backing into me requiring repairs was just an accident and the paint blistering on the hood at a show was a novice mistake, but if I can't find somebody who can do what should be a relatively basic repair job, what am I to do if the car ever needed a major motor repair?
Is it really too much to ask to correctly set up a distributor, get the timing set, and set the carb to make the car run smooth? (sorry - venting here again!) ad
I think I need to buy a punching bag for days like this

 

[tomtom72]

Hi Barry, man does that sound familiar! Rant & rave all you need to man, it just ain't right what some poeple do to take advantage of others. Makes you wonder what the h**l ya gotta do to get your vette done right! Mind if I toss in a few cents? I have heard of balancers slipping, especially if they are old the rubber between the rings dries up. But some of the symptoms you describe makes me want to check the timing 1st, not to time the engine but to see if the mark wanders too much at idle. Reason I would have started there is due to the other symptoms you described, the could mean a sb timing chain has slipped. You would be surprised how far the chain can slip with out making mechanical damage. tt72

 

[BarryK]

But some of the symptoms you describe makes me want to check the timing 1st, not to time the engine but to see if the mark wanders too much at idle.

Well, that's the whole idea of why I've had the car in 4 times now, to check the timing and get it set properly! Nobody seems to be able to get this accomplished
sigh....

 

[tomtom72]

Hi Barry, tt72 here. The tip off to me was the setting of the timing...it could not be done usually that indicates the chain has slipped. This could easly happen from wear even on the steel gears a vette motor uses. Usually if you are trying to time the motor and the mark on the damper keeps wandering it tells me check the side playon the dist shaft( wiggle test) if okay or even questionable the static time the car & start it up and see how much wander you have. Unless the dist. shaft is real bad it should not wander more than 2 degrees up or down, a bad chain or worn gears will move easily twice that. Also you put a vac. gauge on the motor and that will give another clue, erratic vac readings also point to timing gears, but it is not an exact you gotta go thru it methodically. tt72

 

[IH2LOSE]

Barry Again I share your frustration here,I have said it before there are mecanics and then there are parts changers.

A true mecanic should be able to diagnoise your problem 1.2.3. you just have to find him.

I wish you the best of luck but still feel the best spot to find a good mecanic is some one familuar with collector cars.As for you idel problem is just sould like the choke mecanism is hanging up on high idel and when you hit the gas your knocking it off of high idel and the low idel adjustment is not set correct.this is a simple carb adjustment

Good luck I wish you were local to me it seems like simple stuff here

 

[IH2LOSE]

Aslo just because the distributor was rebuilt (everbody has a different idea/definition of what rebuilt means) was it ever run on a sun machine to test it? it could still be a problem with the distributor

 

[warren s]

Timing chain, points, condensor, cap, rotor, plugs, wires, coil.

Fuel pressure, carb adjustment, alternator. electrical system.


ON a Chevy small block no less, it doesnt get more basic. If you ever want to drive out to Staten Island................

 

[BarryK]

Hi Barry, tt72 here. The tip off to me was the setting of the timing...it could not be done usually that indicates the chain has slipped. This could easly happen from wear even on the steel gears a vette motor uses. Usually if you are trying to time the motor and the mark on the damper keeps wandering it tells me check the side playon the dist shaft( wiggle test) if okay or even questionable the static time the car & start it up and see how much wander you have. Unless the dist. shaft is real bad it should not wander more than 2 degrees up or down, a bad chain or worn gears will move easily twice that. Also you put a vac. gauge on the motor and that will give another clue, erratic vac readings also point to timing gears, but it is not an exact you gotta go thru it methodically. tt72

I can tell you that when the distributor was rebuilt t got a new shaft and new bushings (among pretty much everything else too) so it shouldn't have any wiggle in it. The worn bushings causing a slight wiggle is why the fist mechanic wanted to rebuild it to begin with.

 

[BarryK]

Barry Again I share your frustration here,I have said it before there are mecanics and then there are parts changers.

A true mecanic should be able to diagnoise your problem 1.2.3. you just have to find him.

I wish you the best of luck but still feel the best spot to find a good mecanic is some one familuar with collector cars.As for you idel problem is just sould like the choke mecanism is hanging up on high idel and when you hit the gas your knocking it off of high idel and the low idel adjustment is not set correct.this is a simple carb adjustment

Good luck I wish you were local to me it seems like simple stuff here

well, this latest mechanic was recommended to me by many of the members of my Vette Club who swear by him. They use him for their car (older ones like mine such as C1's and C2's). They said he is great with these cars and if anyone could get her running right it would be him.
He has older cars himself so if someone like this guy can't do it I just don't know who else can.
As for the idle adjustment, it might be simple but not for me.....

Believe me, I wish i was local to you also!

 

[BarryK]

Aslo just because the distributor was rebuilt (everbody has a different idea/definition of what rebuilt means) was it ever run on a sun machine to test it? it could still be a problem with the distributor

He has a lot of equipment in his shop but can't tell you if he has a Sun machine or not

 

[BarryK]

ON a Chevy small block no less, it doesnt get more basic. If you ever want to drive out to Staten Island................

That's what is really frustrating to me, even though I don't work on these cars i always figured a Chevy small block was about the easiest thing there was to work on. just how difficult could this job be that already two different mechanics can't get it right!

Thanks for the info on the phone a few weeks ago!

how was the crab trip? Sorry I wasn't able to make it.

Barry

 

[warren s]

That's what is really frustrating to me, even though I don't work on these cars i always figured a Chevy small block was about the easiest thing there was to work on. just how difficult could this job be that already two different mechanics can't get it right!

Thanks for the info on the phone a few weeks ago!

how was the crab trip? Sorry I wasn't able to make it.

Barry

If the car is breaking up at high RPM, a Sears Advance timing light can tell you how many degrees of advance you are getting. Also will show where the mark goes on the RPM band, so you can "see" how the distributor is working.

If the bottom end and the mid range is good I would suspect other issues. Low fuel pressure would be a good suspect. I don’t know many mechanics that would tee a guage into the line of an old car and go for a blast and see how low it goes. I don’t blame them but it’s a very good test.

Electrical system may not be putting out enough current at high revs to power the coil. Some altrernators lay down at high revs, not enough juice.
Another easy to test item.

Didnt make the Crab Trip, had to have a wisdom tooth removed.

 

[BarryK]

If the car is breaking up at high RPM, a Sears Advance timing light can tell you how many degrees of advance you are getting. Also will show where the mark goes on the RPM band, so you can "see" how the distributor is working.

If the bottom end and the mid range is good I would suspect other issues. Low fuel pressure would be a good suspect. I don’t know many mechanics that would tee a guage into the line of an old car and go for a blast and see how low it goes. I don’t blame them but it’s a very good test.

Electrical system may not be putting out enough current at high revs to power the coil. Some altrernators lay down at high revs, not enough juice.
Another easy to test item.

Didnt make the Crab Trip, had to have a wisdom tooth removed.

this new mechanic said that when he fist checked the car he was getting a reading of around 60 degrees of advance which even I know is way to high. He says after he did some things to the car he got it down to 40 degrees.

the bottom end - except for the idle proble - seems to be ok, same as the midrange (although except for my car I"ve never driven another 327/365 to be able to have a comparison) but the top end is still breaking up sooner than it should be I think.

One thing I just remembered that he told me is that he was having trouble with the vacumn? I think he said that is what was causing such a high degree of advance to begin with? He said that he ending up "plugging up" the vacumn line as with the weights I have in the distributor I didn't need the vacumn anyway. This really confused me. When the last mechanic rebuilt the distributor a few weeks ago one of the things we replaced was the vacumn canister so it should be fine. This "plugging" the vacumn line didn't make me happy to hear it was to me that sounded more like a work-around of a problem instead of getting things fixed properly, and seeing how bad the car is running makes me feel i'm right.

Geez, I am REALLY wishing at this point I knew how to do this stuff myself so I'm not dependent on others to do it for me!! So far all I've managed to do is throw good money after bad on this same problem and have gotten nowhere!
for what I've spent so far I could have bought tools, taken an Automotive 101 class myself, and fixed it probably.

 

[wallyknoch]

I have been watching this post for a few days now. A 327/365 is suppost to have a solid lifter cam, and yes it should go over 5500 RPM`s. Probably the 30/30 cam also. But is it really a solid cam and not a hydraulic? Because 5500 is the max effective RPM range for any hydraulic cam. The reason I ask is that most Vette owners are really afraid of a solid cam and very often replaced with a hydraulic by previous owners. I cannot go much further in analizing your problem over the net without some answers to this basic question. Also the idle at 1100 is not acceptable at any standard either.

 

[BarryK]

I have been watching this post for a few days now. A 327/365 is suppost to have a solid lifter cam, and yes it should go over 5500 RPM`s. Probably the 30/30 cam also. But is it really a solid cam and not a hydraulic? Because 5500 is the max effective RPM range for any hydraulic cam. The reason I ask is that most Vette owners are really afraid of a solid cam and very often replaced with a hydraulic by previous owners. I cannot go much further in analizing your problem over the net without some answers to this basic question. Also the idle at 1100 is not acceptable at any standard either.

Hi Wally

During the recent restoration completed just prior to my buying the car the engine was rebuilt. Since I wasn't the one who had it rebuilt I can't say for SURE that's it's truely a solid lifter cam in it, but when I just had the valves adjusted yesterday along with the other stuff he did, he KNEW it was a 365hp solid lifter motor and didn't mention anything other than the valves were too tight and needed a bit of loosening. If he saw hydraulic valves instead of solid lifter valves I think he would have mentioned it. Because of that, I figure the motor does have the proper solid lifter valves at least so wouldn't that mean it also has a solid lifter cam? Can you put a cam designed for hydraulic valves in without also changing to the hydraulic valves, and if so why would you?
I agree, the idle not dropping below 1100rpm is ridiculous!
Even with the idle not right, the car just doesn't sound right anymore. It always had a nice, sexy sounding rumble thru the sidepipes but now the rumble sound is TOO rumblely (??) and sounds a bit uneven and rough.

Believe me, I appreciate the fact it's very hard if not impossible to diagnose a problem via the net, but it just gets me that even experienced mechanics can't seem to do what everyone seems to think should be a very simple and basic job!


Meanwhile, I go into the garage now and look at my car that was my lifelong dream to own and was so pround to have and all i'm feeling for the last 24 hours is pure frustration. i'm beginning to wonder if it's worth all the trouble having her. I think after yesterday's fiasco the only thing that kept me from deciding on just selling her and using the money to buy a new C5 was the fact that I also think of her as an investment besides a car I love, and the C5 would die in value the instant I drove off the lot.

 

[wallyknoch]

If the Vette is a matching number car then more likely than not it would have been rebuilt with the correct 365 parts. However you have already had to replace some critical parts related to the engine that should not have been necessary if the work was performed correctly during it`s rebuild and restoration. The valves and rocker arms would be the same for both hydraulic and solid cams making anyone servicing the engine to be able to rely only by what should be correct. I wish I was there for you as you have spent several dollars on parts that may or may not have been necessary. I would recommend you find a good drag racer in your area that has a fast Vette or Camaro and not a bench or cruise racer. Most of them would enjoy helping you straighten it out. I don`t think it`s that serious of a problem.

 

[BLACK MOON]

Buy an MSD and forget about it. Or go to Auto Zone or Advanced and buy a rebuilt electronic distributer for about $150 including the coil.

I have a billet dist. with the mechanical tach drive. The entire setup was less than $500 and the improvement was HUGE!

My $.02

 

[SG4206]

Barry-
I feel for you having to go through this ; but in all fairness , the best mechanics can't walk on water.
You assume fixing the timing and idle should be a simple fix , when normally it is ;but obviously your circumstances are not.
I can add another item that limits your engine from running over 5500 rpm also. Valve spring pressure. When I bought my L-79 '66 , it would not rpm over 5000. The owner said he had the engine GONE THROUGH about 5000 miles ago. He did ,but the seat pressure was 65 lbs. I had to shim the springs to 115 lbs to cleanly run the engine to 6000.
To check lifters, without pulling the intake manifold; you must push down on the lifter with the pushrod. A hyd. lifter will depress about .075 ,which can be felt ; and a solid will not depress at all.
If I were in your shoes , double check with your mechanic. Make sure he knows which type of camshaft is really in your engine. Do not assume anything. You could have bought a car that someone changed the cam to a hyd.
Someone else already said , the sbc is a basic easy engine to tune; and it is ;but tuning correctly can only be accomplished if the major componets are correct also.

Don't give up yet! You could have bought a BASS BOAT that won't start.

 

[BLACK MOON]

I just read all of the original post and didn't realize the rpm limit. With a stock or even slightly modified motor I doubt you'll see much over 5000 rpm. There are just too many variables involved. I personally don't like point systems and still think electronic is the way to go but NO ignition alone system is going to give you 6000 rpm. Breaking up at 5500 is probably valve float or carb limitations or intake or heads or cam. See what I mean

 

[MMM]

Barry,
From my experience and the NCRS web site, some items to consider if the ignition is breaking up above 5500 rpm:
- are the proper points being used? What is needed is points with 28 to 32 ounces of breaker arm tension to prevent point float. I don't know the NAPA part number off the top of my head, but they do make sets with this tension. You might want to search the technical discussion board of the NCRS web site for the actual part numbers. I know this topic has arisen previously.
- what end play did the mechanic set up in the rebuilt distributor. From every thing I ever did, you need to set it up between .002 to .007 to assure it will work above 5500 rpm. I know some manuals call for a lot more play, but the above works best on the SHP engines.
- This may be elementary, but did the mechanic make sure the dimple on the distributor driveshaft lined up with the tip of the rotor. If not, the engine will run, but not very well and usually not at all until the distributor is moved a tooth or so away from where it should be.

The ex-pat Delaware native,
Mike