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What's the best small block?

MaineShark

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2002
Messages
1,326
Location
Rockingham County, NH
Corvette
1979 L82, 1987 Buick Grand National
I've been thinking over my 383 build, and the later plans for forced induction, and the HT383 crate engine no longer seems like it will really work without many modifications.

So, I guess I'm going to build from scratch.

What block is best to start from? We have the early (C3-era) small block, the later (1987+, I think) small block, and the more recent reverse-cooled small block.

Joe
 
I should also add: I don't really know much about the 400-block, but if anyone has any thoughts on using that, I certainly wouldn't scoff at even larger displacement.

Basically, I want a big block, but don't want the weight, so I'm looking to compromise a bit...

Joe
 
;) You can get all the HP you want from a GM short or long block just depends what you are willing to spend. Hope this helps.:CAC :w
 
Well, since I'm starting from scratch, I might as well choose the best block for the job. So, the question is which block to get. I could do it with any, but since I have the chance to start fresh, I want the best one for the job.

Joe
 
MaineShark said:
We have the early (C3-era) small block, the later (1987+, I think) small block, and the more recent reverse-cooled small block.
That reverse-cooled block, the LT1/LT4, is a totaly different block from the earlier Classic SBC engines.

tom...
 
MaineShark said:
Well, since I'm starting from scratch, I might as well choose the best block for the job. So, the question is which block to get. I could do it with any, but since I have the chance to start fresh, I want the best one for the job.

Joe

You really need to narrow down your goals some before I can answer properly.

"Best" means a lot of different things: Best bang for the buck, best road race, best drag race, best street rod best...

The first thing you need to look at is your wallet. I can spec an engine that will empty it out quite nicely for you, no matter how much cash you have in it ;)

So give us some parameters to work with:

Budget - be realistic, an all new wet sump iron small block motor built from scratch using modern components for a street rod will run from $6,000 to $15,000 depending on what you want it to do.

You can spend $10,000 on just the block if you want - a fully prepped aluminum block from GMPP is a real jewel, it's almost a shame to have to bolt the heads on to it, it's so pretty...

Displacement: This directly relates to the RPM range you want the engine to run in, which equates to streetability vs track and road course.

For example, you can run a de-stroked 350 (iirc it works out to a 330-ish ci.)and spin it to the moon for road track fun, or punch it out to a 427 mighty mouse for big block power and torque at a small block weight.

Among the more practical/traditional and affordable displacements, a 383's will spin more than a 396, but you give up some low RPM grunt. Both engines cost about the same to build, it all comes down to what RPM range and torque curve you want.

Figure a 500HP 383/396 engine will run you around $11-$12,000 to build carb to oil pan. If your less greedy, you can build a very competent 400HP 383 for around $6,000.

A 2 piece rear main seal block used 2 bolt Chevy block can be picked up for a song and would be fine for the 400HP stroker. Should you want more, install splayed billet main caps and it'll hold 600HP no problem.

Aftermarket blocks from World Products and others hold out a lot of promise for building just a sick amount of power and will save you some machining costs as well. I haven't seen one of these blocks except at the PRI show, so I can't tell you how well they are machined etc...

They claim improved oiling and other nice tweaks to the original Chevy design, so if they are within your budget, it would be worth investigating them.

There is no inherent performance advantages of a two piece vs. one piece rear main seal block that I can think of. A two piece crank might be a little less expensive perhaps, and that's about it.

I chose to build a 383 with a 7000 RPM red line capable bottom end. The heads + cam I have on the engine are a street friendly (high torque) setup that nose over at 6000RPM, so the bottom end is "over built", but is ready to rock and roll whenever I get around to putting those Pro Action 12 degree heads on it that I've been dreaming of :)

See my www for a lot of tech info on both my Vette's 383 SBC and my Z28's LT1 383.

CYa!
Mako
 
Joe,
Mako brought some good points to the table. but you can build a 400 block as cheaply as you can a 383. 406's and 427's are very easly to build, but HP costs $$$$. figure out your power goals first, and budget second. then throw us some figures and we'll be glad to help.
going all new, i would buy a GM 400 Iron Rocket block. the rocket block has the cam and crank bores spread along with wider oil pan rails. all that equates to bigger stroke and more displacement. you can build a 454 small block with that block. for $2400 it can be yours, and comes with priority main oiling, splayed mains and lots of other goodies as far as blocks go. considdering the cost of prepping a block to this one's standards, a new one is only a couple hundred more.
i have some good info on 400's if you are interested. my 406 is 606hp and 588 ft/lbs on 88 pump gas. it is streetable and capable of turning 7500 rpm. it made it to 8600 rpm on the dyno by mistake, luckily not hurting it. there is no replacement for displacement, keep us posted on what you want and what you have to spend, Brian
 
Honestly, I'm not totally certain what I'm looking for, exactly. Luckily, I have a few years to plan this out.

What I do know:
I'm looking for street use (ie, low-end torque).
With the cost of gas, the lower the octane, the better.
Planning on fuel injection (brings up another question: are there EFI systems for the 400 block?)

Cost: I don't plan on cheaping-out, but I'm not building a racer, just a car for fun, so nothing too extreme. Shoot for sub-$10k, as a guideline, but less expensive would not be a bad thing (more money for other mods).

I was planning on adding a supercharger after a few years, but maybe not, with the kind of power that Brian just mentioned. Originally, I was looking for around 325-375 hp and 350-400 ft-lbs (just rough estimates - power band is more important than peak numbers, of course), and then using the blower to jump up to the 500-600 hp range. Part of me likes the "cool factor" of forced induction, but it probably does add unecessary complexity and expense, if I can get the power I want with a naturally-aspirated engine, which is what led me to consider the 400's.

Reliability is very important, since it will be a street-driven car. Tall rear gears and an auto tranny (TH400 with the eventual addition of a GearVendors unit, maybe), too - I don't plan on going 150mph, for obvious reasons, but embarassing people at stop lights does amuse me...

Brian:
Any information you have would be greatly appreciated. The power you're making on 88 octane pump gas, without the weight of a big bock, is very appealing. Mind if I ask what components you're using, and what it cost?

thanks,
Joe
 
Brian makes a solid set of observations. A Rocket block is a *fine* foundation.

Your not going to build a 600HP motor for under 10K though, unless you own a machine shop of your own and get the labor for "free".


Some random thoughts:
If you can build cubic inches, I highly recommend you not go with a blower for a driver to keep the complexity down and the reliability up.

Note my Z28 is Supercharged, so I have some idea of the engineering issues you face on a blown motor. They are a huuuge head rush when you plant your right foot though :)

EFI:
It's wonderful, but most of the stuff from Holley and Edlebrock is sub par for a HiPo application. Far better (and MUCH more expensive) EFI is available from people like http://www.force-efi.com/ .

If you want to go EFI, I recommend you look at the GM crate motors that use the MEFI 3 and 4 controllers or retrofit an LS1 or LT1 into your car.

Any small block engine that makes ~475+ HP will run 11's at the strip. If you have $15K wallet, go for a 427 small block. The Rocket block Brian mentioned is fine, as is the World Products casting.

If you have a $10K wallet, go with a seasoned GM 2 or 4 bolt block.

Power is in the heads and released by the cam. I really like the Pro Action 23* heads with dual coil springs setup for a .620"ish lift, but you need to put them on at least a 383 to have a happy streetable ride due to the monster intake ports. They will work great on a smaller engine, but you have to be willing to rev 'em hard.

If you have the wallet, spring for the heads in aluminum and toss 60# or more off the nose of the car. Run 10.5:1 CR on aluminum and 9.5:1 with iron assuming a good cam.

A solid roller cam would be recommended as well. Crane or Comp Cams are the usual suspects BUT these guys: http://www.ultradyne.com/ have magic fairy dust (and a really crappy looking web page :) and should be consulted for your cam once you have the head flow numbers.

Use Comp Cams Pro Magnum or Lunati roller rockers with poly locks and you can pretty much set and forget your valves. You'll need guide plates and hardened pushrods of the correct length for your block deck height. Your choice of solid roller lifters, but be mindful of the

Install a rev kit just because it's the Right thing to do. Add in a cloyes timing set and a billet TC cover to keep the roller cam from walking.

Finally for the oiling system, I recommend a stock Chevy pump with the spring shimmed .060". You do NOT need nor want a high volume or high pressure oil pump on a street machine. Those pumps will wash out the bearings over time (I think I have a set of washed out main bearings somewhere, if I can find them, I'll post a photo of what that looks like).

You oil pan is critical, you need to select one that has room for the stroker crank at the rails and offers excellent oil control. It must also fit :) This is not easy on old Vettes, particularly with road race pans that have big bat wings that want to occupy the same space as the headers. Research the oil pan question when the time comes.

Go with the MSD tach drive distributor and either the MSD 6-AL or Crane Hi 7 for the ignition. Buy the matching coil for the box at the same time. Use MSD plug wires.

For the intake manifold, well, here you have a real problem. You must use a single plane intake to make power on an engine with deep breathing heads. This means your stock hood either gets a hole cut into it or you replace it with an L88 style hood. I replaced mine (doesn't it look spiffy in my photo to the left? ;)

There are some really excellent intake manifolds available from Brodix and Edlebrock, and Pro Action sells a really trick setup specifically for their heads.

For a carb, look at Braswell or DaVinci reworked Holley and select a carb to match the displacement and rev range of your engine.

Rotating assembly:
For up to 7K, go with Eagle rods, a Callies or Lunati street crank and Wiseco or JE pistons and you can't go wrong. Use ARP bolts *everywhere*.

Add in an Edlebrock water pump and your good to go. Ahh, poly motor mounts are a good thing, or just join the hard core club and install solid mounts like I have.

I'll SWAG this engine will run you around $12,500 to build and would make a nice 550-600HP depending on your cam and exhaust setup.

That's more than I intended to write and likely far more than you intended to read, so I’ll call it good to go from here on out. There are a zillion ways to build a really kick ass engine, so don't think the words above are the only way to glory, listen to other people who have been there and done that and sort out the wheat from the chaff and go for it!

CYa!
Mako

PS: I want pictures of the engine and copies of your dyno curves! :)
 
Mako,
you want proof, i'll try sending you a few photos and the only dyno print i have. the harddrive crashed on the dyno computor the day after we got the best numbers. we were printing the reports when it happened, so the partial i have was recovered from the trash and a little wrinkly before the scanner, but it shows the numbers from 3500-6700 rpm.
Joe,
i have about $14,000 wrapped up in my motor, but some cost overruns were forced my way by **** poor machine shops. you could built my motor for $11,000 to $12,500 depending on machine shop pricing in your area and getting everything right the first time. i did the cleaning, speccing, grinding and full assembly myself. that alone saved a couple grand. as far as parts,
here we go;
4340 Eagle crank (internal balance), 6" Eagle 4340 h-beam rods
Miloden splayed mains (suggested for performance and long life)
400 high nickle block bored .030" and decked to 9.0"
JE/SRP pistons with Speedpro moly rings
AFR 210 race heads, CNC ported, decked, 2.08/1.60, 71cc
10.7 compression ratio
Crower cam 248/256@.050 full roller valve train, hydrolic
SuperVic intake, ported
750 race Demon carb
full MSD ignition, probillet dist, 6AL
and a host of other nice to have accs and pretties.
there are a few other power tricks that went into it, like valve grind angles and bowl blending, but they were just knit picking and not really needed. you can built a very strong 406 that pumps out 450hp and 500 ft/lbs for about $7000. the heads is were things get tricky and expensive fast. but for bigger power numbers the prices start going up exponentially. i hope some of this helps, Brian
 
Mako,
i just noticed that you have email blocked under your profile, if send me an email, i would be glad to forward you the pictures and dyno print i have, Brian
 
MaineShark, It is amazing how fast the cost overruns add up!!! Details,Details,Details!!!!! Use a 50% cost overrun on your best estimates.... You will find things that must be fixed that aren't necessarily engine but must be done for a proper upgrade.(radiator, shift kit, chrome stuff,asprin,beer etc.)
And time... did I mention everything takes 2-3 times longer than I expected.
Oh but what FUN!!!!!!!!!!! Fred.

:beer :_rock :_rock
 
Not to mention those rear end upgrades!

Mike
 
MaineShark, See about the time you think you have all the costs accounted for, someone like Mike(6974) comes along and reminds you of even more stuff!!!!!!!!!!! 50% is REAL. Fred.

:duh :duh :cry :cry
 
No matter how brite your future is someone like me always comes along and smacks you with reality.:SLAP
I wish I could get away with only 50% overrun;LOL

Mike
 
Brian, Still working on her... You know good work takes time! Ha! Ha! Gonna work on her all day tommorrow. Should be real close to done. Fred.

:beer :beer :grinshot


PS- IS it cold up there? FC.
 
Fred,
glad to hear your almost done with it. what did you end up going with for pullies?? the weather has been crazy warm all year. i have been driving my car since the 12th of feb. i even had a little run with some saki suckers today. it is amazing the hp gain when your running in 40 degree weather. after smoking the boys, a local officer of the law had a chat with me, luckily no ticket, he owns an LT-4. but i got the warning so i have to chill for a little while. let me know when you fire her off, Brian
 
Lots of interesting info. Luckily, I have a few years to figure all this out.

So, I guess I need to open my budget up a bit. I sort of expected that, but I figured I'd aim, to keep people from suggesting expensive things just to use up a large budget :) The numbers being batted-around are still less than I was expecting, with a blower being added. Of course, this is an all-at-once expense, instead of the two-stage payment of building the engine first then adding a blower in a few years, but reliability is more important.

What sort of machining are we talking about? Other than boring the cylinders, isn't most of this a matter of bolting things together (when going with a pre-prepped block like the Rocket, that is)?

How is the 400 block related to the typical small block? Are we talking internal differences only, or different engine mounts? How about heads and intakes; will items designed for the 350 block fit?

How much weight does the 400 actually save, compared to a big block?

Brian: I'm trying to figure something out: I did some quick math, and it seems like a 750cfm carb will run out of breath at about 6400rpm, with a displacement of 406. I'm by no means a carb expert, so I'm probably missing something; I'm just curious what I'm missing. I'd love a copy of that dyno chart, if it's not much trouble to send on my way.

Mako: yup, it will get a rev limiter. I'm a very strong believer in rev limiters. I'm fairly committed to fuel injection, but I'm not worried about finding a pre-made unit that works perfectly. Building engines is new to me, but fuel injection, I understand. A few grand and some planning (and some swagging, of course), and a fuel injection system is good to go.

Joe
 
Joe,
i love your insight for asking the right questions and your thirst for know how. a 400 small block is the same weight as a 350. depending on components it can save you around 200 pounds from a big block. since your talking blower and light weight, that means you are looking to majorly upgrade in the future. with blowers, you need to line hone cam and crank, bore cylinders, deck block after installing deck plugs and HAVE SPLAYED MAINS INSTALLED in an old block. if you don't take your money to Vegas, it will give more return and fun at the craps table. blowers can make massive power on mild motors, it would be a shame to pop the main caps and waste your whole engine. i believe the new rocket block has all five mains splayed, that is the ultimate for strength in the lower end. old 4 bolt blocks have the outer cap bolts going through the block main web fault. that is why the two bolt block is stronger. the splayed outer bolts run parallel to the fault, and give the benefit of added crank stability at high revs. so with all the machining involved in setting up an old block, it is a wash to buy a new block with priority main oiling and splays. all small block parts are direct bolt ons for the 400 and rocket. the only difference with the rocket, it requires a longer chain for the timing gears and slightly different distributor, they are readily availible. carbs flow different then the rating they are stamped with. most holleys with large annular "drippers" block the venturi and lower the cfm. demon carbs have small "drippers" and with the venturi design, actually flow better than their advertised class. do some reading on barry grants website, it is very informative. and i will forward you the dyno print, Brian
 

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