53 Corvette #29 (x2?)

[Tyler Townsley]

I know the difference but I wasn't striving for accuracy in describing the organizations or the names of the awards. I was trying to make a point about the pointlessness of it all... Shall I try again? :W

Top Flight and Gold awards are NOT for originality; they're for the illusion of factory correctness.

Originality can be recognized by the Bowtie and Survivor... or is it just the illusion of originality?

Analyze that!!

-Mac

I do not think anyone has any illusion of what these cars represent. These cars are not some vehicle that was purchased and put in a cocoon then brought out for judging.

They are judged against how the car would have appeared on the showroom floor. No more no less. If it adds some value to the buyer then its his decision, if not then thats ok too.

Tyler

 

[Tyler Townsley]

Well...now I'm kind of curious...

If so, how can that new, 1953 Corvette truly be authenticated and then certified by organizations such as NCRS or Bloomington to be an authentic, fully restored 1953 Corvette?

Can the same thing be done with old Ferraris, or Packards, or any other rare automobile? How are these cars authenticated in terms of originality?

And then, once I found out the truth behind this fraudulent fiasco, I would take everything I learned about how it came to be, compile it and turn it over to NCRS, Bloomington and the Feds in an effort to try and prevent this type of BS from happening again, and then I would take the individual(s) involved into a barn, and we would have a nice little southern-type chat.

However, since I am not independently wealthy or have an indispensable source of money to do this, if I find out that any information that is submitted to me for inclusion into any part of this site is fraudulent, or intentionally erroneous, you better run and hide. And that's all I'm going to say on this issue.

A little more info on the real car ond owner. The car is being restored by the widow of the second owner. She has old documentation with Florida registration for this car as s/n 29. The restorer tried to get a current fla title and was told since another car currently is titled as 29 she can only register the car as a kit car with a state issued vin! Since the fraud occurred in another state Fla can do nothing about it. I guess Ind does not check nationwide car registrations.

A little more info on the fraud. It is a fact that #259, (until 2008, a NO DATA car) is listed in the CAC 1953 Registry in Austin Robert's name (Rogers son). This young man is 13 or 14 yrs old and lives in New Palestine, IN with his parents. Now why would he be listed as owning the car and also living in Indianapolis? Oh yeah, #029 was also a NO DATA car until it was listed in the CAC 1953 Registry.

It is not over yet.

Tyler

 

[Tim_A]

Has anyone actually seen the #29 car in IN or seen any of the information on it? I noticed a lot of the 53 engine stamp info was listed in this thread, but nothing on the other #29. Is he not providing information on the car for a reason or is he scared he'll reveal another way of proving his car is not the real one?

 

[Rob]

A little more info on the real car ond owner. The car is being restored by the widow of the second owner. She has old documentation with Florida registration for this car as s/n 29. The restorer tried to get a current fla title and was told since another car currently is titled as 29 she can only register the car as a kit car with a state issued vin! Since the fraud occurred in another state Fla can do nothing about it. I guess Ind does not check nationwide car registrations.

A little more info on the fraud. It is a fact that #259, (until 2008, a NO DATA car) is listed in the CAC 1953 Registry in Austin Robert's name (Rogers son). This young man is 13 or 14 yrs old and lives in New Palestine, IN with his parents. Now why would he be listed as owning the car and also living in Indianapolis? Oh yeah, #029 was also a NO DATA car until it was listed in the CAC 1953 Registry.

It is not over yet.

Tyler

Ok....so who did the restoration on the #29 (or whatever number it really is) car that Roger Roberts has in his possession?

 

[53 Blue Flame]

Since what is believed to be the REAL 029 is in FL, I would suggest bringing the car to the NCRS Winter Regional meet and display it in a fashion that the frame stamp can be seen as well as the vin tag, while keeping the car in as original of a state as possible. This would be the best place to showcase this ORIGINAL car for people who know these special cars to inspect it fully.

I can see attorneys and law enforcement becoming involved in this dispute before it's over.

 

[Rob]

Since what is believed to be the REAL 029 is in FL, I would suggest bringing the car to the NCRS Winter Regional meet and display it in a fashion that the frame stamp can be seen as well as the vin tag, while keeping the car in as original of a state as possible. This would be the best place to showcase this ORIGINAL car for people who know these special cars to inspect it fully.

I can see attorneys and law enforcement becoming involved in this dispute before it's over.

What's the point of this if vin tags and frame stamps can be recreated and made to look original?

 

[53 Blue Flame]

While vin tags can be reproduced, it's hard to dispute one that is obviously original, IMO. The picture of the original vin tag in this thread is hard to beat.

Same goes for an original frame and stamping. Looking at a frame fully restored and freshly painted tells almost nothing about originality. But seeing a car that obviously has never had the body pulled, along with the entire car in it's unrestored condition is hard to dispute.

When you've seen many cars in their unrestored state, it's pretty obvious what's original and what's not.

 

[53 Blue Flame]

Ok....so who did the restoration on the #29 (or whatever number it really is) car that Roger Roberts has in his possession?

I would suggest asking him.

 

[Rob]

I would suggest asking him.

I could do that. But if what everyone here is saying about him is true, he's not going to give me the truth.

If someone breaks into a bank, and you ask them after the fact, if they did it, are they going to tell you the truth? Chances are, no.

So I'd rather ask those in the know, and those that have had interactions with him.

 

[Mac]

I do not think anyone has any illusion of what these cars represent. These cars are not some vehicle that was purchased and put in a cocoon then brought out for judging.

They are judged against how the car would have appeared on the showroom floor. No more no less. If it adds some value to the buyer then its his decision, if not then thats ok too.

Tyler

Well said and I agree.

Unfortunately, there are those who believe Top Flight or Gold are "evidence" of originality. I'm sure you've met a few of them yourself.

-Mac

 

[53 Blue Flame]

I could do that. But if what everyone here is saying about him is true, he's not going to give me the truth.

If someone breaks into a bank, and you ask them after the fact, if they did it, are they going to tell you the truth? Chances are, no.

So I'd rather ask those in the know, and those that have had interactions with him.

If I was in your position, I'd follow the story as it unfolds. The fake car will be obvious once law enforcement gets invloved. A that point, you'll be able to ensure which car should be in the CAC 1953 Registry.

 

[Rob]

The other thing I'm not quite clear on is, why was the thread about this same topic at CF closed, posts deleted, and members banned?

 

[53 Blue Flame]

The other thing I'm not quite clear on is, why was the thread about this same topic at CF closed, posts deleted, and members banned?

That's probably why your activity (CAC) has been boosted in the past week.

 

[Rob]

That's probably why your activity (CAC) has been boosted in the past week.

Very true and I'm enjoying the discussion about this topic because it's definitely boosted my curiosity.

But that still doesn't answer my question.

The Administration here tends to have a reputation of being hard-asses by a lot of the other Corvette sites, but I believe, we're more fair than the rest of them.

We rarely lock threads and it's even more rare for us to delete posts. If we did, we almost always notify the member and give them a reason why we took that action.

The CF's mods have a reputation of just wacking posts and threads and not giving notice to the member as to why. However, they usually have their reasons for doing what they do and that's what I'm wondering in regards to that thread.

 

[53 Blue Flame]

Has anyone actually seen the #29 car in IN or seen any of the information on it? I noticed a lot of the 53 engine stamp info was listed in this thread, but nothing on the other #29. Is he not providing information on the car for a reason or is he scared he'll reveal another way of proving his car is not the real one?

With this dispute over two cars titled as the same car vin #, attorneys and law enforcement seem inevitable.

When that happens, I'm sure that all IN and FL info on #029 will be subpeoned.

That should clear it up pretty quickly, I would say.

HOPEFULLY, THE PEOPLE IN THE KNOW IN FLORIDA WILL KEEP US ADVISED AS THIS DISPUTE PROGRESSES.

 

[vettebrett]

The thread was locked I believe because CF is owned by a business now, they want everything to go nicely and no one to get made and everyone play fair.

I was involved in a thread getting locked here and at CF dealing with challenge cars a few weeks ago because on owner was upset that the VIN's for his cars were posted. It happens but I got the thread opened back up at CF which was a feat in itself. Some Challenge owners are picky about these numbers getting out and others do not care. This is a hobby that some people take was to seriously.

But in this case it is pure FRAUD and it has now affected some little old lady that cannot get here husband's car registered now.

So when do the cops verify who has what or does this all blow over and Mr Roger wins out in the end??

 

[SebringBill]

Very true and I'm enjoying the discussion about this topic because it's definitely boosted my curiosity.

But that still doesn't answer my question.

The Administration here tends to have a reputation of being hard-asses by a lot of the other Corvette sites, but I believe, we're more fair than the rest of them.

We rarely lock threads and it's even more rare for us to delete posts. If we did, we almost always notify the member and give them a reason why we took that action.

The CF's mods have a reputation of just wacking posts and threads and not giving notice to the member as to why. However, they usually have their reasons for doing what they do and that's what I'm wondering in regards to that thread.

Rob, if you're being a hardass, let me introduce myself; I'm the new CEO of GM! otfl

Lessee about that CF thread. I PMd between myself and two different Mods; only one responded stating (among other things) he was trying to protect the hobby. (Please wait while I pull up my brown socks - 'cause it's gettin' deep..) It seems that the gentleman in question here has recently published a book about how to discern a 53 Corvette from later ones. He apparently was quite charitable in disseminating this little book to those on the CF (though I did not hear about it at the time, nor was I a recipient of said charlty). Along comes SebringBill with some interesting info and pic, and suddenly "this has been discussed before." I questioned (via PM) as to how this could have been discussed here before when the car in FL had only recently surfaced and got banned. I kept all this on PMs; I did report both locking posts via the "report this post" button. The only post I put in public was that I PMd two Mods and (at that time) had not received a response. As to the reason for locking and banning? Read between the lines.

So...does the saying "go pound salt.." mean anything? :eyerole

 

[Mike Terry]

This may take a little time and a little money but. If the lady in FL. is wanting to prove her #29 is the real deal, I would have several NCRS Judges come and inspect the car and write out letters stating who and what they are and what they saw and found on the car. Maybe while doing this, take pic of things proving the authenticity of her #29 and have a police officer there to document everything. Then take all that information and pic and Police report and NCRS Judge report to the FL. State Attorney Generals Office and have them follow up on it. I think the only money the lady would be out would be for the NCRS Judges if they would charge her for there time. Heck they may do it just to prove she has the real deal. That is the path I would take. Let the Attorney Generals Office get involved in it with the DMV of FL and IN. and the Attorney General of Indiana. My $0.05 worth. Would have been $0.02 but inflation is a killer.

 

[Rob]

Rob, if you're being a hardass, let me introduce myself; I'm the new CEO of GM! otfl

Lessee about that CF thread. I PMd between myself and two different Mods; only one responded stating (among other things) he was trying to protect the hobby. (Please wait while I pull up my brown socks - 'cause it's gettin' deep..) It seems that the gentleman in question here has recently published a book about how to discern a 53 Corvette from later ones. He apparently was quite charitable in disseminating this little book to those on the CF (though I did not hear about it at the time, nor was I a recipient of said charlty). Along comes SebringBill with some interesting info and pic, and suddenly "this has been discussed before." I questioned (via PM) as to how this could have been discussed here before when the car in FL had only recently surfaced and got banned. I kept all this on PMs; I did report both locking posts via the "report this post" button. The only post I put in public was that I PMd two Mods and (at that time) had not received a response. As to the reason for locking and banning? Read between the lines.

So...does the saying "go pound salt.." mean anything? :eyerole

Me being a hardass? Not yet.

And no, the term "go pound salt" doesn't mean a thing to me.

So the guy in question, Roger, publishes a book about how to discern 1953 Corvettes from later ones, and he distributed the book to some of the members on CF. So what?

So if I read between the lines here, (because it seems like we're all dancing around the friggin bush...), correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that he distributed the book to some of the CF members, a couple of which happened to be Mods, and as a result, you got the response you got.

So this book on 1953 Corvettes that he published is a source of angst for you and some others?

Why?

And what is in that book that seems to have a few people's panties in a bunch?

 

[Rob]

Sorry, but I'm really starting to lose my patience with this whole thing. Why?

Because I feel like I'm getting bits and pieces of the truth and I'm left to try and connect dots and puzzle pieces.

I don't have time to deal with that.

So here's what I have in summary based upon this thread:

• Roger Roberts claims to own #029, but supposedly the *real* #029 is in Florida.
• The car he owns was fabricated from other '53s
• He doesn't have the technical expertise or craft to do the work himself so he hired someone to do it for him. My gut instinct is that THAT person is one of the keys to this little mystery.
• Another 1953 Corvette that he owns is registered under his son's name - Austin Roberts. Ok....big deal. The guy who spent $1,000,000 at auction on the only 2009 LeMans Blue ZR1 built has the car registered in either his daughter or granddaughter's name. I fail to see the negativity in this.
• Roger has published a book on identifying and discerning 1953 Corvettes and sent the book to a few CF members.
• The thread on CF discussing this issue was locked, or deleted, or whatever because one or two of the recipients of that book were Mods and one of the Mods felt it was important to protect the hobby.
• Somehow a Corvair-Corvette prototype....one-off....whatever is partially built and its authenticity is in question as well.

Maybe it's time I try and contact Roger and see what kind of information he can provide to me. Because I have a funny feeling his side of this story is going to be most interesting, AND, I also have a funny feeling that he can shed some light on a couple key individuals involved in this fiasco.