Attention all with flat tappet cams

[Sensei]

I'm sure alot of you may already be aware of this, but I am surprised by how many people, even full time mechanics that pride themselves on keeping up to date that have not heard yet. The EPA recently required oil companies to remove the zinc from motor oils as it damages catalytic converters. Zinc is a lubricant that roller tappet engines can do without, but flat tappet camshafts are getting wiped left and right. Shell Rotella T oil (made for deisel trucks) and Valvoline racing oil still have zinc. Other than that, you need an additive. God bless, Sensei

 

[C3L81]

Thanks sensei. Do you know if Lucas Oil stabalizer contains Zinc?

 

[67HEAVEN]

This thread has been copied from C3.

Comments?

 

[Stan's Customs]

I'm curious why we haven't heartd of this in the business. Stuff like that usually travels like wild fire. I'd like to see some documentation on this.....zinc requirements for flat tappet motors that is. I've never heard of anything like this at all...but ??


There are millions still running...hard to believe.

 

[67HEAVEN]

Sensei posted this link in the other thread.

http://www.compcams.com/information/whatsnew/NewsDetails.asp?ListHistoryID=1821071676

 

[Stan's Customs]

Well the oil problem is exagerated..and taken out of text in my view. Comp Cams list the change in oil as "one" of the problems regarding premature cam failure. The most important reasons ( which they also mentioned) are cheap after market lifters...which are every where now and not worth the metal it takes to make them...... and possibly windage trays etc. that limit the ability for oil to splash up on the cam....in some cases, rarely though I would think. We have windage trays on several engines ...

I'm sure Chinese lifters or others "cheapies" have trashed many cams...and Comp Cams needs to provide a discclaimer to maintain their reputation.

Any cam that is not heavily lubricated and broken in as the manufacturer suggest is likely to be damaged immediately.....notice they dwell on that...another area that is far more important than oil differences.

All top grade oils have to meet pretty astringent quality standards....I think they are much better than ever before.
I do agree with the brand of oils Comp mentioned..... both are very good, In fact we use Valvoline exclusively in one form or another, though not racing oil all the time.

My 2 cents is, that I don't know of anyone that has lost a cam lately for any reason, and feel like if oil "specifically" was causing a problem I would have heard about it by now. I know a lot of machine shop owners and engine builders.

Happy trails....Stan

 

[Hib Halverson]

I'm sure alot of you may already be aware of this, but I am surprised by how many people, even full time mechanics that pride themselves on keeping up to date that have not heard yet. The EPA recently required oil companies to remove the zinc from motor oils as it damages catalytic converters. Zinc is a lubricant that roller tappet engines can do without, but flat tappet camshafts are getting wiped left and right. Shell Rotella T oil (made for deisel trucks) and Valvoline racing oil still have zinc. Other than that, you need an additive. God bless, Sensei

The above blanket statement is, IMO, irresponsible.

It is true that oil refiners and blenders have, over the last decade or so, been forced by EPA regulations to remove and/or reduce the amount of certain extreme pressure (EP) lubricants from engine oils. Examples of these EP additives are zinc, molybdenum and calcium, however, not all of them have been banned/removed.

It is, also, true that there are a number of engine oils out there, including the above mentioned Shell Rotella and Valvoline Racing Oil, which still have very robust EP additive packages. Generally these engine oils are sold to the heavy duty market or for motorsports.

It's irresponsible to post "Other than that, you need an additive" because that statement is false. Further, even if it were true, it's ridiculous to post such as statement but not also post some specific information as to what "additives" (if there really are any containing the right ingredients in the correct amounts) can supplement the reduction in certain EP additives in engine oils currently available to consumers today.

The above says nothing about what oil refiners have used to replace zinc...afterall, zinc is not the only EP additive. The above also supplies no data to support the implied belief that wide-spread failures of flat tappet camshafts is taking place--which it's not. Contrary to what many think, the entire auto industry has not converted to roller tappets. There are many engines, especially those with overhead camshafts, which use flat tappets so there is an installed base of tens of millions of late model engines which use flat tappet cams. Do you think oil refiners have simply begun to ignore the needs of those engines, many of which are still under warranty?

Not even.

Now, where those with flat tappet camshafts need to be concerned is the following circumstances in combination: 1) tendency to buy cheap oil and 2) use of significantly higher than stock valve spring pressures to control the valve train when a more radical cam profile is used or the engine runs in a higher rpm range.

What are the solutions?
Better oil than some of the mass marketed stuff many people insist on using.

Some examples of excellent petroleum-base oils are:
Shell Rotella
Chevron Delo 400
Valvoline Racing Oil.
Shell Aero oils

A good synthetic with an EP additive package which is still pretty good:
Mobil 1 15W50

An outstanding, ester-based synthetic which contains a high quantity of an extremely robust EP additive package:
Red Line Race Oil (any viscosity)

It's important to note that any of the above will decrease catalytic converter life, especially in an engine with high oil consumption. For example, if you have a Vette which has been modified with both an aggressive flat-tappet camshaft, high tension valve springs and forged pistons but also has a cat converter(s) and you use a diesel engine or racing oil to lube the camshaft, you're headed for trouble as the increase oil consumption common in forged piston engines coupled with the oil containing a lot of EP additives is going to degrade the catalytic reactant in the converters more quickly. The solutions are either 1) a roller cam 2) finding a better oil choice such as a premium synthetic intended for street use, like Red Line 10W30 or 10W40, which has less or different, but still robust EP additives or 3) changing your engine configuration to reduce oil use and decrease valve spring pressure.

Those with older engines running stock or near stock camshafts with profiles having modest velocities and stock or near stock spring pressures can continue to use mass-marketed engine oil which meets modern API specs and comes from a reputable refiner and have no worries about durability. You also don't need to start spending a lot of money on an oil additive, either. The idea that an additive is required is ridiculous. In a few cases, an additive might be useful but, even then, you'd better understand what's in the additive and that seldom is discussed by the snake oil....er.... additive maker.

Lastly, oil changes--do them at the oil change interval specified in your Owner's or Service Manual. For normal duty cycles the so-called "3000-mile oil change" is pure propaganda by the "quick-lube oil change" business. Not only that, 3000 mile oil changes are wasteful and environmentally irresponsible.

 

[61 Silver]

I'm curious why we haven't heartd of this in the business. Stuff like that usually travels like wild fire. I'd like to see some documentation on this.....zinc requirements for flat tappet motors that is. I've never heard of anything like this at all...but ??


There are millions still running...hard to believe.

When I had my 63 340 solid lifter engine rebuilt, the builder told me to make sure to use the additive or diesel oil. The cam vendors are providing this information to their clients. There has also been numerous post on the NCRS web site in reference to the correct oil to use to protect cams.

I now run 15 W 40 in the 270HP & 340HP engines.

Ray

 

[wallyknoch]

This article, if true would apply to all flat tappet camshafts which would include both solid and hydraulic cams. If so then roller camshafts are the only way to go? I see this as a very ambiguous statement. Camshaft failure in my opinion is almost totally the result of improper installation whatever the type of lifter used, not because of the oil.

 

[waterboy1976]

Go get this months issue of Hot Rod there is a whole section regarding this oil issue. My engine builder has even recently told me about this.....

 

[wallyknoch]

Writers in Hot Rod books are only printing hearsay and offered for the truth of the matter asserted. They dont have first hand subject knowledge, they only repeat what some one else has told them. Thats the person you want to talk to.

 

[Tom Bryant]

The Hot Rod Magazine article titled When Good Cams Go Bad is very informative on this issue and includes comments from people in the industry on both sides of the question. Also there is a good chart showing zinc and phosphates levels in a selection of popular oils. The author is Marlan Davis. Anyone that has been familiar with his work over the years knows that his credentials go far deeper than his position as Senior Tech Editor at Hot Rod and other Primedia publications. His tech articles are always woth the read.

 

[Stan's Customs]

According to Hot Rod...

(In their summary)......If you make provisions to adequately lubricate the lifter/lobe interface, use only quality lifters, fill the sump with diesel or racing motor oils, and follow the proper break in procedure, any flat-tappet cam failures should be minimized.

Prior to that Hot Rod also said that ...

...Motor Oil industry sources maintain that even with their significantly reduced wear additive content, the new oils still pass standard industry test that measure valvetrain wear ( including with flat tappets).

Cam grinders say.....blah blah....Who's right on this one is hard to determine....says Hot Rod.

Hmmm.....
Cam grinders can sell better lubing lifters, bore grooving tools and more assembly and oil additives...providing they can establish that the Motor OIl Industry is fibbing....no bias there, right? Plus they have one more disclaimer for failed cams if they need one...

....and last, in BIG RED LETTERS, Hot Rod quotes Comp Cams...."Improper break-in is the biggest cause of premature cam failures."--Scooter Brothers, Comp Cams

Well whada' you know...

Seems like this equates to quality parts, quality oil, and proper break in procedure. We've been doing that for 30 years.......

Just like always ..."any" variation from that and you've got problems.

The more things change the more they remain the same.....

We use Valvoline exclusively for gas apps and Chevron Delo in diesels...

Zinc , smink...after a 100K miles you might be able to tell the difference......and only "might".

Good oil is important ...but quality lifters and break-in procedure in is "imperative" !

Just my nickel's worth.....

 

[Jeff Farrar]

A good synthetic with an EP additive package which is still pretty good:
Mobil 1 15W50

That's good to hear about Mobil 1 15W50. I just had the engine rebuilt last year with a Comp Cam Xtreme Energy cam. No problem so far but I've been worried ever since I started hearing about all this stuff after the fact. My engine builder speced the cam and told me to run the M1. The reason for the 50W was becasue of the clearences built into the engine.

 

[motorman]

GM

GM has been selling a product for camshaft break in since the 60s called "engine oil suppliment" commonly called EOS part # 1052367. they even included a can of it with every short block they sold. it is very high in zink and it is not a add every oil change type product,just used for the initial startup and camshaft break in. with EOS in the oil and genuine moly disufide on the lifters and cam lobes i never had a cam lobe go flat even in race engine where the flat tappet cam was required by the rules. i used EOS back when we used mushroom tappets in NASCAR engines and the lobes were very narrow to clear the large diameter if the next lifter and never had a cam lobe problem. NASCAR still requires flat tappet cams in cup engines and the blocks are equipted the 16 small jets above the camshaft lobes to put pressurized oil directly on each lobe and a metal tray under the camshaft to keep the excess oil off of the rotating assy. this tray also allows the cam to be submerged in the oil because these flat tappet camshaft engines turn 9000+ RPMs for 500/600+ miles of racing

 

[Hib Halverson]

Engine Oil Supplement (EOS) is, indeed, rich in EP additives but even GM cautions against use of the product continuallly. Do that and you'll have other problems in the engine, mainly calcium and other deposits from a heavy concentration of EP lubricants.

 

[motorman]

Engine Oil Supplement (EOS) is, indeed, rich in EP additives but even GM cautions against use of the product continuallly. Do that and you'll have other problems in the engine, mainly calcium and other deposits from a heavy concentration of EP lubricants.

does not racing oil like red line have a lot of EP additives and should not be used for extended oil changes like GM oil change minder?

 

[Hib Halverson]

does not racing oil like red line have a lot of EP additives and should not be used for extended oil changes like GM oil change minder?

Well, I don't consider GM's "Oil Life Monitor" an "extended oil change".

As for the higher level of EP lubricants, generally, that tends to increase oil drain intervals rather than reduce them but, bear in mind that there is more to setting drain intervals than just the level of EP additives.

What higher levels of EP additives do affect is catylitic converter life. Most EP add's, decrease cat life.

 

[motorman]

Well, I don't consider GM's "Oil Life Monitor" an "extended oil change".

As for the higher level of EP lubricants, generally, that tends to increase oil drain intervals rather than reduce them but, bear in mind that there is more to setting drain intervals than just the level of EP additives.

What higher levels of EP additives do affect is catylitic converter life. Most EP add's, decrease cat life.

i was under the impression that higher amounts EP cause oxidation of the oil quicker.

 

[00fxd]

Sensei;
Thanks for starting this thread. Your information is certainly NOT irresponsible and is in line with the concerns of many other knowledgeable guys. Duke Williams has been promoting CI-4 deisel oils for several years. At this time I'm not sure supplements are necessary just use CI-4 rated engine oil for diesels. The latest is that that engine oil manufacturers will be removing even more of these additives [that are harmful to cat converters] for next year from diesel engine oils when diesel engines will be compelled to be equipped with cat converters as well. Thanks to your thread I have learned that, at this time anyways, that Shell Rotella among others are acceptable as well. I have had my ear to the ground on this one for a while now and agree with your post that there is cause for discussion and would be irresponsible to NOT bring it up. Every body’s opinion is welcome on this board and should not be subjected to comments like that.
Domo, Frank