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Important! Bowling Green Corvette Assembly Plant Workers Authorize a Strike

One last response to your comments (and this is all in good spirit!)

(1) My Dad voted for Carter and then for Reagan, and at 83 wishes he could vote for Reagan again.

(2) My greed comments were directed at "both" sides not just corporations that you talk about. Do you know what Union Leaders average salaries are??? $300K, $400K -- keep going!! Top 1% of earners .... bit of hypocrisy compared to average worker... check this link

Union Leaders Decrying CEO Pay Also in Top 1%: BGOV Barometer - Bloomberg

(3) I am a CFII, MEI and former Corporate pilot for our company - firing the flight Controllers was an excellent idea - their strike put thousands of lives in jeopardy - they knew what they were hiring up for when they signed their contracts.

(4) Workers in America make better wages and work in the better conditions than anywhere else in the world despite imperfections. And if you think you should make the same as a CEO then go become one yourself, or start your own company with your own money and stop complaining about how much someone else signed up to make. No one talks about the many business owners who lost it all trying to start a company that "employs" people who need jobs... they take the risks ! But that's part of American freedom and why so many people want to live here.

(5) If unions think they need to get more political to solve their problems then they are worse off then I ever imagined.... we all are aware how much liberal politics play into Unions ... all while the head of the IRS is likely to be indicted on criminal charges for biases against conservative groups... we cannot make companies into the "nanny" states the federal gov't is becoming and expect companies to compete or survive.

(5) One last anecdotal story and I'm done: My son-in-law served 2 tours in Iraq. On return to a nuclear plant job as a Security officer he was invited to set in on a Nuclear Engineer course during the last 3 weeks of a 6 month training class. He made the 2nd highest score in the class despite absent from most of the class (he is a smart kid). But he was told he could not expect to get a Job at that plant doing that work because it was a "Union job" !!! Security was not part of the Union. The only hope extended was that no one in the Union would apply or he took a Union janitor job. Back to carrying an M-4 around for 2 years and 3 round of classes until he was he able to grab a spot because there was not enough Union members able to qualify or applied. Interestingly, Union workers never have to take the final Nuclear Engineer licensing test due to their Union contract (most don't because if they failed they could loose their job or loose the increase in salary - but the plant needs licensed engineers!!).

So what is the Union protecting here? Is this about workers rights ? ... Unions are only interested in the rights of "those workers" who PAY them money. Check again the salaries of Union Leaders !

But hey, I still own a VETTE made by GM - a bailed out company - but that's part of my freedom for living in America - with all the heat over ignitions right now I wonder if this Strike in the best interest of our beloved Vette factory.

According to Kiplingers to be in the 1% you had to make $388,905 in 2013. To be in the top 50% you had to make just about $35,000. That’s about an 11-1 ratio however, since I told you that I am in construction $35K would be a very low annual wage. Let’s say a Plumber makes $50 per hour in Chicago. It would be less than that in Cleveland, Indianapolis, Kansas City but much more in New York, San Francisco and Boston so for the sake of arguing let’s use Chicago. If the Plumber misses roughly 350 hours due to weather and works about 1700 hours that would allow him to earn $81,600. If you take that $388K and compare it to the $81,600 that’s a ratio of about 4.7-1. That is a very long way from 354-1. I know Operating Engineers that run tower cranes in the large cities that I mentioned previous that work 12-14 hour days 6 maybe 7 days a week. They climb that tower crane in the morning, pee in a bucket all day make their picks for the job while being directed by radio not knowing what they are lifting, how much they are lifting or what or who they are swinging that load over because most of the time they can’t see it. A dangerous job with a lot of responsibility. They make good wages and a lot of overtime. $100K a year would be on the low end and probably more like $200K in New York and San Francisco but again for the sake of argument let’s say $150K for a good tower crane operator. That would be a ratio of 2.59-1. That number is even farther from that 354-1 ratio and that’s assuming that the President of the Operating Engineers makes the $388K. He might make less which would bring that down even farther. Bloomberg gets their figures from LM2 filings and often times benefits and expenses are part of that total amount. Don’t get me wrong, $300K-$400K is a very good wage but those leaders have the responsibility of running organizations with hundreds of thousands of members plus their families. Do you think that you are going to attract a member to be President of a Union and move to Washington, DC by paying them $50K a year? They don’t get bonuses or stock options so there is a huge difference between Labor leaders and the CEO’s that are making millions. I don’t mind paying my dues for that kind of representation.
<o:p></o:p>
If you notice the middle class shrinking, it is shrinking at the same rate that Union density is decreasing. The graphs parallel each other. Coincidence?

Why do people complain about the GM bailout? Should the Obama administration have let all of those jobs and the smaller supply companies go down the drain? When Pearl Harbor was bombed thus dragging us into the war, the auto manufacturers (including GM) instantly quit manufacturing automobiles and retooled to make weapons, ships, planes, PT boats, tanks and anything that we needed to win the war. The ability of the US to mass produce weapons and steel is what won the war for us and we should have just let them go belly up without lifting a finger to help them?

All of that being said I hope that some common sense prevails with respect to the UAW workers and management at the Bowling Green plant and they can come to terms without a strike.
<o:p></o:p>
 
1. GM won't dump the UAW. Too many locations are in states that have strong pro-union laws, so that would never work for GM.

2. Because of 1, it wouldn't matter if GM relocated that assembly plant to Key West, Florida. The UAW would still represent the workers to GM.

3. This is apparently over working conditions and product quality. If it's documented that there have been several near-miss events in the plant (and if that term carries the same definition as it does for the company I work for), then I can absolutely see their point. I'm a bit less convinced about the UAW's concern about product quality. That seems to be a catch all phrase that all parties use when discussing the need FOR or AGAINST a strike.

I'm a firm believer that employees are entitled to have working conditions that enable them to leave with the same number of fingers and toes that they arrive with each shift. There may be many reasons that explain why more safety problems are occurring than in the past (new product, new methods, new employees, higher production rate). It's too bad that this couldn't have been settled internally between management and the union.

I just hope that this doesn't turn nasty and poison the well between BG management and the Union. For so many years, it seemed that BG was an example of how both management and union could come together and get things done. Maybe that was never true, or perhaps this is just a blip. I hope it's resolved soon, though.

Steven

Well said!:thumb
 

.....If you take that $388K and compare it to the $81,600 that’s a ratio of about 4.7-1. That is a very long way from 354-1...Do you think that you are going to attract a member to be President of a Union and move to Washington, DC by paying them $50K a year? They don’t get bonuses or stock options so there is a huge difference between Labor leaders and the CEO’s that are making millions. I don’t mind paying my dues for that kind of representation....
<o:p></o:p>

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...ing-ceo-pay-also-in-top-1-bgov-barometer.html

HKVette,

Your argument is the same principle used for pay scales of CEOs who have helped build Fortune 500 companies or managed billion dollar national/international companies and budgets. I guess guys like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are evil because they made billions while the other 99% of employees made only "thousands!" (forget the fact that they enabled more millionaires from common employees and investors than any other corporations in history).

I'm glad corporations and their Leaders are around with skills that produce crane operators, plumbers, construction workers, electricians, car builders, janitor jobs, etc., . Where do folks think jobs come from or the investment capital to keep an economy growing ? The government has never produced a job that has not been funded by tax payer money - which is "sleight of hand" since that money is produced from the profit of those who have been successful in their own private jobs and businesses.

You appear to accept by faith that Union Leaders are more righteous in motive or they just "deserve" the larger ratio's. You can justify their $500,000 salaries because the ratio to average is better than a CEO or they live in D.C. ?? Really? That a ratio firmly established in mid-air! Why not a ratio of 1:1 - wouldn't that be the fairest? The pilgrims in Plymouth tried that under the Mayflower Compact ... it failed miserably - capitalism was birthed through those type of experiences.

Workers should definitely have legal rights and safety protection. But when one man can determine that another man can only be so rich before the mandatory redistribution of his salary and wealth, or when hard earned profits of the wage earner should be used to bail out unprofitable companies - the American experiment will be over... maybe it is....

UAW = GM ..... stop trying to talk me into buying a Shelby! :>)

Cheers
 
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UAW = GM ..... stop trying to talk me into buying a Shelby! :>)

Sorry to burst your bubble but the Shelby Mustangs are assembled by UAW workers too. :D
 
UAW = GM ..... stop trying to talk me into buying a Shelby! :>)

Sorry to burst your bubble but the Shelby Mustangs are assembled by UAW workers too. :D


Yeah, but at least Ford wouldn't accept the bailout money... makes you wonder how all these American car companies got into so much trouble ... I regress !?!? :beer
 
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Yeah, but at least Ford wouldn't accept the bailout money... makes you wonder how all these American car companies got into so much trouble ... I regress !?!? :beer
There will be some that will blame the Unions and some that will claim bad management. The big three certainly have high "legacy costs" dues to their age and the length of time that they have been paying into pensions and health care compared to the Asian companies that have set up shop down south within the past 30 years. And the last figures that I saw show that a car is about $1200 cheaper to manufacture in Canada than the US because of the Canadian national health care system but I'm not looking to start that conversation.

Ford didn't need any bailout money so since their workers make relatively the same wage as the GM and Chrysler workers it would appear (at least to me) that management may have been better at Ford than the other two. It sure seems like all of the Big Three are doing well right now. I wish that the construction industry would follow and come out of recession mode.
 
There will be some that will blame the Unions and some that will claim bad management. The big three certainly have high "legacy costs" dues to their age and the length of time that they have been paying into pensions and health care compared to the Asian companies that have set up shop down south within the past 30 years. And the last figures that I saw show that a car is about $1200 cheaper to manufacture in Canada than the US because of the Canadian national health care system but I'm not looking to start that conversation.

Ford didn't need any bailout money so since their workers make relatively the same wage as the GM and Chrysler workers it would appear (at least to me) that management may have been better at Ford than the other two. It sure seems like all of the Big Three are doing well right now. I wish that the construction industry would follow and come out of recession mode.

Maybe just basic math: "cost to build vs. market will pay" = profit ratio, add your "credit to debit ratio" and then adjust to beat your competition in the current economy and market demand = Balance sheet @ end of month ... if they don't add up on the + side you have a problem. Perhaps the studies about Asians being better at Math are true after all!
:upthumbs

p.s. Canadian healthcare ... really? ... the Canadian Premier came to the U.S. to have his heart operation .. must be a great system up there... "my heart, my choice" .. his words ! ;LOL

CN Premier Says: ‘My heart, My choice’ | Sweetness & Light
 
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Maybe just basic math: "cost to build vs. market will pay" = profit ratio, add your "credit to debit ratio" and then adjust to beat your competition in the current economy and market demand = Balance sheet @ end of month ... if they don't add up on the + side you have a problem.
:upthumbs

p.s. Canadian healthcare ... really? ... the Canadian Premier came to the U.S. to have his heart operation .. must be a great system up there... "my heart, my choice" .. his words ! ;LOL

CN Premier Says: ‘My heart, My choice’ | Sweetness & Light
Canadian healthcare has it's upsides and downsides. Although the costs don't reflect directly to the company, they reflect directly in the form of taxation since the government is the only game in town for healthcare.

One of the significant issues with socialized medicine is the wait-lists. I'm guessing Danny Williams (no longer Premier of Newfoundland by the way) preferred to optics of going to the US for treatment over the optics of pushing himself ahead of his constituents waiting for heart surgery. Besides... Danny can afford US healthcare unlike most of us. His nickname is Danny Millions and while he was the Premier (basically equivalent to a state governor) Danny donated his salary to charities.

Mac
 
... His nickname is Danny Millions and while he was the Premier (basically equivalent to a state governor) Danny donated his salary to charities.

Mac

Good for Danny! He made his money and "voluntarily" shared it with others!

But he is no different from the rest of us when it comes to our own healthcare ... he wants the best option for him and his family. Fact is the U.S. is where most want to go for healthcare, even with all it's past free enterprise problems because of the quality of professionals who choose to serve in that field ...

Unfortunately, I have a lot of caring Doctor friends (my company deals in healthcare services) getting out of the practice since our new law came into effect. The economics are drastically changed in a socialistic system. Instead of opening up competition between the Payors (across State lines) and reforming TORT laws (malpractice makes up 20-25% of every dollar a Doc makes), our govt (that operates every large govt program in the RED) is now in control of another enormous piece our private economy (ironically, they couldn't even set up an efficient sign up webpage but believe they can produce a better healthcare system). But eh, maybe this will make it easier for Canadians to get US healthcare (e.g. we allow illegal aliens to sign up for healthcare, college grants, welfare, etc., )...

* Just be prepared to get back in line with similar service (wonder where Danny will go next time around?)
 
* Just be prepared to get back in line with similar service (wonder where Danny will go next time around?)
I've always believed the Canadian healthcare system would not be able to function if we didn't have access to the US healthcare system. Mind you, we've seen ample examples of that working the other way around too... particularly when it comes to pharmaceuticals... We get busloads of seniors coming to Canada to buy the generic versions of drugs from our pharmacies because our copyright/trademark laws are different than the US laws.

Back to the union situation, in Canada we have both federal and provincial legislation to ensure worker safety. While unions play a role in advocating on behalf of the workers, the legislation is there regardless. If there is an unsafe situation, employees have the right to refuse to work without fearing consequence... and it is incumbent on the employer to mitigate the hazard...

Although my mother was a shop steward in her time, I find the over-the-top political activities of unions frustrating. If union leaders want to be politically active, they should become politicians and run for office rather than using union member's fees for political purposes.

Mac
 
No Memory?

There will be some that will blame the Unions and some that will claim bad management. The big three certainly have high "legacy costs" dues to their age and the length of time that they have been paying into pensions and health care compared to the Asian companies that have set up shop down south within the past 30 years. And the last figures that I saw show that a car is about $1200 cheaper to manufacture in Canada than the US because of the Canadian national health care system but I'm not looking to start that conversation.

Ford didn't need any bailout money so since their workers make relatively the same wage as the GM and Chrysler workers it would appear (at least to me) that management may have been better at Ford than the other two. It sure seems like all of the Big Three are doing well right now. I wish that the construction industry would follow and come out of recession mode.

Let's get past the Ford crap: They bought up the British brands and Volvo for top dollar trying to be all that under King Nasser. The brands didn't sell for sht while they had them (and got their asses handed to them when they tried to take on BMW). Then '07 hit and they sold all these car companies for pennies on the dollar to whoever would by them. So they dumped all their foreign brands (except Mazda, who made their Fusion and MK...), hocked the farm - equipment, name rights and all, and still took another $12 billion in govenrnment money in '09 for plant improvements and such. THAT'S HOW THEY SLITHERED OUT OF BANKRUPTCY. Can we all please remember these facts about ford now? There's NOTHING glorious about Ford, Malluly is just selling pickup trucks to people who don't need them. I'm certain they're circling the wagons with internal reviews looking for other problems like the recent engine fires and the infamous Ford/Firestone fiasco that nobody seems to remember anymore.
As for GM, no excuses there either but their cash-burn rate was second only to that of the Pentagon, they didn't stand a chance. I guess if the gv't really intends to drive them into the grave over the new recall problem, they could. Then we won't know what's the future for the Vette - the standard-production performance car FAR superior to anything from Ford.
 
Then we won't know what's the future for the Vette - the standard-production performance car FAR superior to anything from Ford.

You are right. It only took them 50 years to figure out to put IRS on the Mustang.
 
Let's get past the Ford crap: They bought up the British brands and Volvo for top dollar trying to be all that under King Nasser. The brands didn't sell for sht while they had them (and got their asses handed to them when they tried to take on BMW). Then '07 hit and they sold all these car companies for pennies on the dollar to whoever would by them. So they dumped all their foreign brands (except Mazda, who made their Fusion and MK...), hocked the farm - equipment, name rights and all, and still took another $12 billion in govenrnment money in '09 for plant improvements and such. THAT'S HOW THEY SLITHERED OUT OF BANKRUPTCY. Can we all please remember these facts about ford now? There's NOTHING glorious about Ford, Malluly is just selling pickup trucks to people who don't need them. I'm certain they're circling the wagons with internal reviews looking for other problems like the recent engine fires and the infamous Ford/Firestone fiasco that nobody seems to remember anymore.
As for GM, no excuses there either but their cash-burn rate was second only to that of the Pentagon, they didn't stand a chance. I guess if the gv't really intends to drive them into the grave over the new recall problem, they could. Then we won't know what's the future for the Vette - the standard-production performance car FAR superior to anything from Ford.

Ford was family owned and there was no way they would ever go for government mony or declare bankruptcy. THey would cease to be and that will never happen.
 
I've always believed the Canadian healthcare system would not be able to function if we didn't have access to the US healthcare system. Mind you, we've seen ample examples of that working the other way around too... particularly when it comes to pharmaceuticals... We get busloads of seniors coming to Canada to buy the generic versions of drugs from our pharmacies because our copyright/trademark laws are different than the US laws.

Back to the union situation, in Canada we have both federal and provincial legislation to ensure worker safety. While unions play a role in advocating on behalf of the workers, the legislation is there regardless. If there is an unsafe situation, employees have the right to refuse to work without fearing consequence... and it is incumbent on the employer to mitigate the hazard...

Although my mother was a shop steward in her time, I find the over-the-top political activities of unions frustrating. If union leaders want to be politically active, they should become politicians and run for office rather than using union member's fees for political purposes.

Mac

Thanks Mac. Both informative and well stated on all points! Take care!

* Plus now we all know where to go went it's time to buy Viagra!
  • :upthumbs


  • Hope to do some motorcycling up your way one day!




 
Thanks Mac. Both informative and well stated on all points! Take care!

* Plus now we all know where to go went it's time to buy Viagra!
  • :upthumbs


  • Hope to do some motorcycling up your way one day!

If you get up around Ottawa, let me know. If I can, I will join you. 2006 Harley FLHP.

Mac
 
If you get up around Ottawa, let me know. If I can, I will join you. 2006 Harley FLHP.

Mac

Thanks Mac - I will remember that!
** my latest is 2012 GoldWing (best friend just traded his Harley FLHP for nice looking 2013 orange Ultra Classic)
 
Thanks Mac - I will remember that!
** my latest is 2012 GoldWing (best friend just traded his Harley FLHP for nice looking 2013 orange Ultra Classic)
Gotta love the Goldwing; ultimate touring bike!

The guys I ride with each summer for the past couple of years are all on BMW GS1200A dual sports… the go-anywhere, do-anything bikes… I wouldn't sell the Harley but I might need a second bike in case of the zombie apocalypse. Once the kids are done college so I can afford toys…

Mac
 
Gotta love the Goldwing; ultimate touring bike!

...but I might need a second bike in case of the zombie apocalypse. Once the kids are done college so I can afford toys…

Mac


  • LOL. it is so nice since the kids are off the payroll !!
    • :beer

      /Bob



 
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