Question: C4 NCRS Judging Question

[B17Crew]

I posted this in the NCRS Factory Correct Resto. –– NCRS forum, quite a few views but no one seems to know the answer, thought I’d try here.

I have a ’96 LT4 coupe that I have been keeping stock, I’d like to have it judged (when eligible) at a regional NCRS event.

My question is in regard to weather-stripping on the C4. Would a aftermarket weather-strip be a deduction?

Thanks!
B17Crew

 

[Toms007]

Darn good question, and one that I never considered. I hope someone can answer for you.

 

[B17Crew]

Thanks, toms94!

B17Crew

 

[july349]

I have a 96 LT-4 Coupe also (polo green) and a friend of mine who has a couple of NCRS Vettes has told me in the past that the car has to be exactly the way that it rolled off the assembly line or you will loose points.

July349 !
P.S.
I was going to have mine judged by the guys at NCRS, but not now.

 

[LT4man]

Every part has to be as it left the factory. If you put a blue AC Delco oil filter on it, points will be deducted. The factory oil filter was painted black.

I know of some folks who take a blue filter and paint it black. If you do a good enough job (correct black and sheen) you can fool the judges.

SAVE THE

 

[twiget]

How old does a 'Vette need to be to be eligable for NCRS judging?

Jason

 

[B17Crew]

I have a 96 LT-4 Coupe also (polo green) and a friend of mine who has a couple of NCRS Vettes has told me in the past that the car has to be exactly the way that it rolled off the assembly line or you will loose points.

July349 !
P.S.
I was going to have mine judged by the guys at NCRS, but not now.

I expect to loose a points here and there. I have replaced the battery (still have the original battery label). I seek out only OEM parts as best I can. I really haven’t had to replace much, I may fair well. I landed a full set of brand new, never mounted NOS Goodyear GS-C’s not too long ago! Goodyear dealer tells me they were the last ones available in his statewide search.

How’s come the change of mind on judging?

B17Crew

Every part has to be as it left the factory. If you put a blue AC Delco oil filter on it, points will be deducted. The factory oil filter was painted black.

I know of some folks who take a blue filter and paint it black. If you do a good enough job (correct black and sheen) you can fool the judges.

SAVE THE

Thanks, lt4man, I didn’t know about the black filter. I know the LT5 guys hunt for the ZR-1 specific “black filter”. Looks like I will searching for NOS ’96 oil filters. If there’s one thing I’ve learned, the parts are out there, just takes time and patience.

B17Crew

 

[B17Crew]

How old does a 'Vette need to be to be eligable for NCRS judging?

Jason

Took a look at the NCRS site. There is now a standards manual for 1993 models. That puts eligibility at 15 years.

B17Crew

 

[CorvetteArchives]

Kinda funny! Have the manual...granted its a year or so old..BUT Those guys at NCRS dont list MANY of the original production differences...like 84 rear hatch rod length ...simple info that can be found in TSB's ...or the shape/style of connectors on those rods.
I remember emailing them the first year about discrepencies and talking to a couple of judges at Carlisle and they had NO clue. I place VERY little faith in the accuracy of their judging to true production state. Seems to me its more a power trip than anything else!

 

[B17Crew]

Kinda funny! Have the manual...granted its a year or so old..BUT Those guys at NCRS dont list MANY of the original production differences...like 84 rear hatch rod length ...simple info that can be found in TSB's ...or the shape/style of connectors on those rods.
I remember emailing them the first year about discrepencies and talking to a couple of judges at Carlisle and they had NO clue. I place VERY little faith in the accuracy of their judging to true production state. Seems to me its more a power trip than anything else!

I’ve been wondering about varaince among the cars as they leave Bowling Green. I can site two examples.

1. I had a ’94 coupe that came from the factory with a ’93’s metal air filter housing (bolts on the radiator shroud above the airfilter. It was early build ’94, it was built in the summer of ’93.

2. My ’96 came from Bowling Green (BG) without the Mobil 1 oil fill badge that was applied underneath the hood at the front. No evidence of glue/adhesive or removal. Not 100% fact, but I’ve read that BG ran out of the plaques toward the end of production. I have a very late build ’96, so that may be just what happened. I’ve looked at several late build ’96’s and sure enough, they didn’t have the plaque.

B17Crew

 

[Newton]

H*ll - the NCRS is still working on the straight axles. Now you want a perfect C4 judging manual. :L

I think they actually do a good job and they're open to hearing about things they can improve on. Just be sure you have proof of what you're talking about.

On the other hand most people build their NCRS cars to the judging manual. That's why you have to enter a few regional shows to see what they're looking for.

When it comes to weather stripping I think they use both originality and condition. Sometimes it's better to take the hit on condition rather than get zero points for originality.

I was one of the very early members of the NCRS and I still have a 3 digit membership number. On the other hand I will never have a car judged. I just can't get into the show thing. i do love that the NCRS has assembled a tremendous amount of information though.

Richard Newton

101 Projects for Your Corvette 1984-1996

Corvette Restoration Guide: 1963-1967

 

[CorvetteArchives]

H*ll - the NCRS is still working on the straight axles. Now you want a perfect C4 judging manual. :L

Yes actually I'm a museum professional and it drives me nuts! Its SO easy to do if you put your mind to it. What needs to be addressed is HOW the NCRS does things. If they want to be the benchmark of restoration, than the job should be done completely and exactly.

Having filled out the original survey from NCRS it was ridiculously un-detailed and could have easily contained surveys to things that were fairly common knowledge questions. People dont like to fill out surveys many times so the first one should be done right. Mind you, I greatly appreciate the work and time the volunteers do. However the survey would be best compiled by a professional. Instead of people
donating their time they might consider donating $ to hire a researcher(s) to compile surveys at perhaps the National Corvette Museum,or get GM to donate the $.

 

[B17Crew]

Now you want a perfect C4 judging manual. :L

Richard Newton

The devils in the details! I guess I just have to wait for the ’96 manual to become available and see what the NCRS says on the Mobil 1 plaque.

B17Crew

 

[killain]

To be fair to you and the NCRS I can only relate my expierence having my 79 flight judged in 2003. My car was 24 years old so a lot of things are not going to be "EXACTLY AS THEY WERE FROM THE FACTORY. Having said that, the judges when judging your car take a lot of things into consideration. for example, my car was 24 years old so the chances of it having the original battery, oil filter, weather stripping, distributor cap and so on is somewhere betweeen impossible and non-existant. So they try to work with you. For me I had perfect weatherstripping, but not the original, the correct make of tires, Goodyear, but the wrong exact model that came with the 79, RPO. OGR and they haven't been made in twenty years, So they only docked me two points. Again, the radio I had wasn't the one that came with the car, the radio I had was a aftermarket radio. So I hunted for two years for a radio, I used a Hollander manual but no luck. So I got a radio, and found someone in Ohio who rebuilds radios and had my unit rebuilt. When judged, they, the judges said the radio had the wrong numbers, BUT the radio according to the numbers WAS a 1979 radio, but it came out of an oldsmobile cutlass not a corvette. I explained the situation and since the radio worked perfectly during the 'operational check' they said OK, we'll dock you three points, and two points for the wrong battery. One points for the wrong oil filter, mine was blue and should have been white. but again, the white filters had been out of stock for ten years, so there's really no chance of me getting the oil filter right. The NCRS judges are looking for a really original 1979 corvette, but they try to meet the owner half way. There are some things that you can't be so critical about and unless you sealed the car in a vacume capsule for twenty years, it's going to be just about impossible to be just that, perfect. So they work with you. The NCRS judges arn't looking to knock you down points wise and they respect the fact that you've worked so hard to restore your car. Do people win 'Top flight awards' Yes, and when you go to a NCRS meet you'll see why. MOST of the top flight cars come out of a really expierenced restoration shops, into a covered trailer and then pushed, YES, I'm serious, pushed out to be judged. There was one guy from New York who had a 'perfect' black 77 corvette with only 41 miles on it! HOW? becaues he only drove the car backwards, that's right backwards. After the judging meet, he and his pal pushed the car forward back into the trailer. Is it fair, I don't know. some people will do anything to get a top flight award, year after year. Me? I'm looking to restore my corvette, not enter the pristhood. Just go over your car as best you can, match up enerything as per the judging manual, and the corvette black book for your year car and go for it. Also the NCRS gives you points if you drive the car to the meet. Like I said, they are looking for very good perserved corvettes, not to hurt anyones feelings or make you feel foolish. that's just my expierence! BTW, I won a second flight for my 79. I was three points short of a top flight.

 

[B17Crew]

Thank you killain for a great write-up. I appreciate the time you took to post your first-hand experience with your ’79, it gives me piece of mind.

I make an effort to keep everything in “as delivered” condition. My ’96 has 52,000 miles on it from when it was my daily driver, so, things like tires have obviously been replaced (I did get lucky and found a full set of NOS GS-C’s at a local Goodyear dealer).

I expect my first attempt at having my car judged will reveal issues that need to be addressed. Hopefully, it will be a few minor things that can be remedied for a second attempt at a better score. If I can earn a Top Flight, I’ll be content and probably not have the car judged for quite a while after that. I’ll just keep on doing what I’ve been doing with my ’96 when it comes to replacing parts... seek out OEM replacements.

Cograts on your Second Flight!

B17Crew

 

[killain]

Thank you killain for a great write-up. I appreciate the time you took to post your first-hand experience with your ’79, it gives me piece of mind.

I make an effort to keep everything in “as delivered” condition. My ’96 has 52,000 miles on it from when it was my daily driver, so, things like tires have obviously been replaced (I did get lucky and found a full set of NOS GS-C’s at a local Goodyear dealer).

I expect my first attempt at having my car judged will reveal issues that need to be addressed. Hopefully, it will be a few minor things that can be remedied for a second attempt at a better score. If I can earn a Top Flight, I’ll be content and probably not have the car judged for quite a while after that. I’ll just keep on doing what I’ve been doing with my ’96 when it comes to replacing parts... seek out OEM replacements.

Cograts on your Second Flight!

B17Crew

Great b17, just do your best to line up an much of any 'original' equipment as you are missing. One thing, Before you get to the flight judging segment, you go through the 'operational check' so make sure absolutely everything mechanical and or electrical works just like it's suppose to. In my case i had my radio rebuilt, and AM/FM cass tape deck. But during the operational check, I found out I didn't have a cassette tape to insert into the cassette deck. They could of failed for that, But the nice couple who were NCRS members, stopped, the nice lady went to her car and got a old cassette tape and put it in the radio, it worked and I passed. but they were kind enough to help me out. If your interior isn't worn too badly, don't replace it, just clean the heck out of it so it's really presentable. The judges are looking for original, not perfect. Just read the judging manual as best you can, have everything as close to perfect as possible, wax the car so it looks good under the lights(if held indoors) and stay right with the judges when they go over your vette. they're gonna want to ask questions and be ready to answer them. But their fair and even if you don't get a top flight, you'll get a complete education as to what they are looking for when judging you model Corvette. I've only met one guy who hit the Top Flight award first time out and it was with a 87 corvette which he bought in Washington state, had shipped East and had driven to the NCRS meet in Cape May NJ. so be confident and good luck!

 

[OldCorvetteFan]

I've got copies of the NCRS judging sheets for 1984 - 1986 Corvettes, and there's only one spot that I can find where there is any mention of weatherstripping, and that's just one of three items being judged.

If your weatherstripping is noticeably worn, then you'll get a deduction for condition. On the other hand, unless the reproduction weatherstripping is clearly different from the 'average' look of C4 W/S, then you probably wouldn't have an issue with it.

The W/S on my '95 coupe is in poor condition around the windshield, and I got dinged for that during Bloomington Gold judging - but it wasn't enough to keep the car from earning Gold anyway.

Actually, NCRS has posted downloadable PDF's of the judging sheets at this link ...

http://www.ncrs.org/membership/scoresheets.html


Good luck!

Steven

 

[B17Crew]

Great b17, just do your best to line up an much of any 'original' equipment as you are missing. One thing, Before you get to the flight judging segment, you go through the 'operational check' so make sure absolutely everything mechanical and or electrical works just like it's suppose to. In my case i had my radio rebuilt, and AM/FM cass tape deck. But during the operational check, I found out I didn't have a cassette tape to insert into the cassette deck. They could of failed for that, But the nice couple who were NCRS members, stopped, the nice lady went to her car and got a old cassette tape and put it in the radio, it worked and I passed. but they were kind enough to help me out. If your interior isn't worn too badly, don't replace it, just clean the heck out of it so it's really presentable. The judges are looking for original, not perfect. Just read the judging manual as best you can, have everything as close to perfect as possible, wax the car so it looks good under the lights(if held indoors) and stay right with the judges when they go over your vette. they're gonna want to ask questions and be ready to answer them. But their fair and even if you don't get a top flight, you'll get a complete education as to what they are looking for when judging you model Corvette. I've only met one guy who hit the Top Flight award first time out and it was with a 87 corvette which he bought in Washington state, had shipped East and had driven to the NCRS meet in Cape May NJ. so be confident and good luck!

Thanks, Killain for the info. I didn’t even think to have a cassette tape on hand, I will need to pick-up a tape because I no longer have tapes as part of my music collection. I will have a CD handy for sure!

My interior is in very good original condition, I’ve always been nuts about keeping the car clean/original overall. The only area of concern I had was my weatherstripping. I'm going to be anxious to get the manual when available, I’ve been meticulous with this car since I first bought it and have recently found myself wanting to have the car properly “judged”.

Thank you for your experiences and insight to an exciting part of the hobby.

B17Crew

 

[B17Crew]

I've got copies of the NCRS judging sheets for 1984 - 1986 Corvettes, and there's only one spot that I can find where there is any mention of weatherstripping, and that's just one of three items being judged.

If your weatherstripping is noticeably worn, then you'll get a deduction for condition. On the other hand, unless the reproduction weatherstripping is clearly different from the 'average' look of C4 W/S, then you probably wouldn't have an issue with it.

The W/S on my '95 coupe is in poor condition around the windshield, and I got dinged for that during Bloomington Gold judging - but it wasn't enough to keep the car from earning Gold anyway.

Actually, NCRS has posted downloadable PDF's of the judging sheets at this link ...

http://www.ncrs.org/membership/scoresheets.html


Good luck!

Steven

Thanks for the link, OldCorvetteFan.

I’ve printed out the pdf scoring sheets to study them and act as a checklist for myself. I know they are for ’90-’91’s, but this is enough to give me a very good idea of what to expect.

Even though more costly, I’m going to go with the GM weather stripping. I want to the car to be right.

Congrats on the Gold by the way!

B17Crew

 

[killain]

Thanks, Killain for the info. I didn’t even think to have a cassette tape on hand, I will need to pick-up a tape because I no longer have tapes as part of my music collection. I will have a CD handy for sure!

My interior is in very good original condition, I’ve always been nuts about keeping the car clean/original overall. The only area of concern I had was my weatherstripping. I'm going to be anxious to get the manual when available, I’ve been meticulous with this car since I first bought it and have recently found myself wanting to have the car properly “judged”.

Thank you for your experiences and insight to an exciting part of the hobby.

B17Crew

Hay b17, the one thing I learned from both being a member and having my car judged, was that you can 'Over restore' a car. The weather stripping is important and if it's not in real bad shape stick with it, but if you feel it isn't good enough, replace it. One of the NCRS judges whom I know and he's from Ohio, is that a lot of guys who goes to get his 67 roadster restored, and in doing that they throw a ton of money at the project. The shop, goes at the job and does everything, like lining up the door reveal so they match and the trim is on perfectly, it matches on both sides and front to back. Trouble is. . . That's not how they came from the factory. C-2 and C-3's were notorious having. Being made from plywood forms and racks they were never a perfect alined car. And when they go for judging by the NCRS they are surprised to be docked points because the car ISN"T the way it was when it came from the factory. My 79 didn't have one door line reveal match. The hood was off a little and one corner stuck up a micron more on one side than the other. I wanted to be judged as per the judging manual so I didn't bother with the stuff I knew was original, even if it didn't match. I wasn't docked a single point for any of the stuff that didn't match, cause according to the manual it was that way from the factory. The judges are fair and they want original cars, even if their a little worn.