GM's V8 Production Down by Half - Should Next Gen Corvette Adopt a V6 to Keep Up with the Times?

[Evolution1980]

The more I re-read the comments in this thread and think about what question people are answering, I find that we all seem to be answering the question based on context that we personally give it and not in the context given, namely because it isn't given any context. It's a very generic, ambiguous question. But boy did it get some of y'all to come out of hiding!

 

[garllo]

Going to a V6 is not keeping up with the times, it is going back in time to the late '80s and '90s. That's when they thought that the V6 was the future. So much so that NASCAR even went to the V6 in the Grand National Series (now the Nationwide Series). I'm not sure if NASCAR dropped the V6 because of cost, a realization that they were not going to be the performance engine of the future or if they just couldn't stand the sound of 43 buzz boxes going in circles. Street rods were seeing them installed in droves also. Can't hardly find one left these days that hasn't been changed to a V8. I'm old enough to know that the only 6 that ever sounded good was built by Chevy in the '50s and had a split manifold with dual glass packs.

If they want a V6 sports car just fire up the Soltice line again. But a global Chevy grille on that thing and a Camaro V6. Then call it whatever name will sell but leave the Corvette alone. The Corvette competes with the best sports cars in the world at a fraction of the cost and beats them. I don't see Ferrari running their V12s through a band saw to make V6s. If your goal is to compete with the best you aren't going to do it by downgrading the driveline. You must have torque for a bigger sports car or you end up with a meaningless boulevard cruiser.

Tom

 

[Kid_Again]

Gee, I think I REALLY ticked off the admins this time around. Oh well, I'll just login another five years from now and cynically decry the new biturbo I4 Vette as unproven technology and an affront to the Corvette heritage.

Think I'll go login at the Lotus Forum and tell them what a great car the Vette is. The TORQUE of the V8, the rumble of the exhaust......unmatched for anything below $200 Large, etc.

I said I was a cynic.

 

[Rob]

Gee, I think I REALLY ticked off the admins this time around. Oh well, I'll just login another five years from now and cynically decry the new biturbo I4 Vette as unproven technology and an affront to the Corvette heritage.

Think I'll go login at the Lotus Forum and tell them what a great car the Vette is. The TORQUE of the V8, the rumble of the exhaust......unmatched for anything below $200 Large, etc.

I said I was a cynic.

Ticked off? No.

If anything, you made me laugh. I find it humorous how some members here are so quick to piss and moan about this site and bitch about the members.

These forums are extremely tame compared to a lot of the bullshit I see going on at other automotive forums.

 

[Rob]

Also: if there are any members here that find this site and these forums to be so bad, feel free to contact me via the site's contact form and ask to be removed. I'll be more than happy to do it. :eyerole

 

[Kid_Again]

Aw geez......OK, maybe one last point in my defense.

I am from New Jersey.

We of New Jersey believe that those of you landing at Newark Liberty Airport are afforded the absolute height of civility if we don't drag your collectively ugly asses directly on a one way trip to the Pine Barrens ala Pauly Walnuts.

I made my previous comments with that background in mind. Nothing personal, it's just the way we are.

But I can't resist the urge to point out the BIG news on the GM Corvette website is the '13 427 Convertible. What in the world does 427 mean to anyone younger than 50? It's the 427th vehicle being made that day? Even GM realizes that they must market this beast to those who remember when it was THE car. Now, if they pre-announced a mid-engine sequential turbo V6 surrounded by a truly edgy design, it might take more than a few butts out of the bimmers.

Gotta go to the Lotus forum to see if I got kicked off there yet. Now THEY'RE a bunch of purists.

Hmmmm...anyone have the last 10 years' Corvette unit numbers sold to see if the line is growing or moribund as I predict?

Edit..I found the following production numbers at Wikipedia (so it has to be true). The recent peak was 2007 and production figures are 2009 - #26,956 and 2010 are - #22,194. Considering these are roughly equivalent to the production numbers of my C2s, I'd say the current Vette is in a dead cat bounce. Either they bring some excitement into the brand or they put it out of its misery like the Camaro. Relaunch it a few years later with a particular performance target in mind, say the 911, and do a funky exotic drivetrain like a performance electric/gas hybrid. Certainly, by then, truck V8s will no longer be available in cars

Whatever they do, DO NOT launch it as a Chevrolet. Take a page from the Chrysleroni Corp with the Ram. It's not a Dodge, its a Ram.


Wow, it's even worse than I thought. Forget about Holden, someone should LBO this while it still has some value, get two years' parts supply from GM, give Bowling Green two years to drop costs by 30% or the whole thing moves to a friendlier place. Be interesting if you could source engines from Koenigsegg or Saleen's new place. If they priced it correctly (that is, 2x of now), they wouldn't have to give us a second thought. Boy, high risk but at least the marque survives.

Any of you big dogs on the porch willing to put your money where your mouth is?????

 

[Rob]

Your location is not relevant to this discussion and no need to use it as an excuse.

I'm much younger than 50 and I knew what 427 meant when I wasn't old enough to drive. It's unnecessary to throw everyone under 50 into the "ignorant crowd."

Lastly, don't be surprised if the LS7 and LS9 go bye-bye after the 2013 MY.

 

[DarkRed89Flyer]

Everyone Seems To Be Forgetting...

I haven't read all of the posts yet, but one thing I didn't see anyone mention, out of the posts I did read, is that a 6-cylinder and 8-cylinder have different rev limits, and thus, different torque, etc. Also, a V6, or inline-6 for that matter, requires more "thrashing around" to achieve these higher outputs. This in itself isn't a bad thing until it comes to the longevity of the engine.

I also have a 2010 Toyota Tacoma and getting on the freeway is an adventure in terror. To get up to freeway speed in the short distance of the on-ramps near my home, the Toyota's engine screams, in protest, like a Banshee. By contrast, when I get on the freeway in my '89, the tires are usually what's screaming, and I'm not even pushing the engine at half-throttle.

One has got to wonder what kind of damage all that thrashing has GOT to be doing to the internals of that smaller engine...

Thank you very much, but a V6 has no place in a CORVETTE!!!

 

[DarkRed89Flyer]

Possibly turn it into a Fiero.... Low buck V6 econobox with flip up headlights...

I owned a Pontiac Fiero, and although it wasn't considered a "sports car," it did very well in its time. It was fun to drive, had tons of legroom, and got decent performance numbers.

 

[Kid_Again]

Your location is not relevant to this discussion and no need to use it as an excuse.

I'm much younger than 50 and I knew what 427 meant when I wasn't old enough to drive. It's unnecessary to throw everyone under 50 into the "ignorant crowd."

Lastly, don't be surprised if the LS7 and LS9 go bye-bye after the 2013 MY.

Ignorance? No, if I thought you were ignorant, I would say so. I think quite the opposite. My inarticulate phrasing made you assume that I lumped this (CAC) cast of characters into the larger potential Corvette buyer market.

While the 427 moniker may make some of us swoon, it doesn't mean crap to the majority of people who need to buy the car to keep it a viable brand. It's obvious, the Corvette advertising that I see is all about maximizing the profits from the existing customer base. I don't see evidence of any major ad campaign (or certainly any regional campaign in the NYC metro area) where Corvette is actually going after increasing market share.

Ergo, you maximize profit by getting your existing, albeit shrinking, customer base to trade up to a more profitable product. You don't innovate, you don't spend, you just put lipstick on the pig.

Let me give you one example of where the Vette is going. The Audi R8 4.2 has absolutely NOTHING to offer over the Vette except the perception of a state-of-the-art drivetrain and a huge marketing campaign. The body style is strictly a personal preference and whether one thinks the marketing campaign is successful or not doesn't matter; it exists. My local Audi dealer had so many Z06s traded in for 4.2 R8s that they automatically wholesale them because they don't like the image of so many identical used cars on the lot.

My location is entirely relevant to the discussion. Since there is more money than brains in New Jersey, it is a perfect example of where the Corvette should be growing. It's not an excuse, I call 'em like I see 'em and I see absolutely no market enthusiasm for the Vette here. None. V6 notwithstanding. Unit sales are down while overall unit car sales are up in the US.

I have really learned a lot from this post, learned that some of my assumptions were entirely incorrect, and I frankly have completely changed my mind. I wouldn't vote for a V6 because it will kill what enthusiasm exists in the loyal customer base. The customer is king, give 'em what they want. More of the same.

I freely admit to missing a big GM marketing point. I always wondered why the Camaro got the part for the Transformer movies. Well gee, the future for GM is the Camaro, not the Corvette. Oh, NOW I get it. I'm over 50 and even I saw the movies. You will remember the Camaro is a good seller...with a ballsy V6.

I look but I don't see....good advice to all.

 

[Evolution1980]

While the 427 moniker may make some of us swoon, it doesn't mean crap to the majority of people who need to buy the car to keep it a viable brand. It's obvious, the Corvette advertising that I see is all about maximizing the profits from the existing customer base. I don't see evidence of any major ad campaign (or certainly any regional campaign in the NYC metro area) where Corvette is actually going after increasing market share.

Ergo, you maximize profit by getting your existing, albeit shrinking, customer base to trade up to a more profitable product.

My location is entirely relevant to the discussion. Since there is more money than brains in New Jersey, it is a perfect example of where the Corvette should be growing. It's not an excuse, I call 'em like I see 'em and I see absolutely no market enthusiasm for the Vette here. None. V6 notwithstanding. Unit sales are down while overall unit car sales are up in the US.

Now your points/arguments have context and make more sense. "It's all in the delivery."
-----------
:hijack
What I found interesting in doing a little side-research due to this thread, many of the exotic and/or high dollar auto manufacturers (Bentley, Ferrari, Lambo, and I think I saw Audi mentioned) are really working to infiltrate the Chinese market since China has had the biggest uptick in 'big money' and thus the largest new base of potential customers. And according to the various articles I read, the Chinese are more than happy to buy these big dollar "look at me" cars. Maybe GM needs to follow suit and put a little more emphasis on penetrating that market with some ZR-1's and CTS-V's. Sounds like there's enough pie over there to go around.

 

[catbert]

Now your points/arguments have context and make more sense. "It's all in the delivery."
-----------
:hijack
What I found interesting in doing a little side-research due to this thread, many of the exotic and/or high dollar auto manufacturers (Bentley, Ferrari, Lambo, and I think I saw Audi mentioned) are really working to infiltrate the Chinese market since China has had the biggest uptick in 'big money' and thus the largest new base of potential customers. And according to the various articles I read, the Chinese are more than happy to buy these big dollar "look at me" cars. Maybe GM needs to follow suit and put a little more emphasis on penetrating that market with some ZR-1's and CTS-V's. Sounds like there's enough pie over there to go around.

China already is the biggest market, and GM is the big kahuna there. The big problem is that the Chinese don't want imports in meaningful numbers. They insist on chinese assembly and high domestic content. A few hundred units from Ferarri means a lot to them, not so the Vettes. That said, it may be worth a try.

 

[Hib Halverson]

(snip)Any of you big dogs on the porch willing to put your money where your mouth is?????

That fact that you ask that in the same post you mention "engines from Saleen's new place." made me laugh so hard I spit beer all over my monitor.

(snip) Lastly, don't be surprised if the LS7 and LS9 go bye-bye after the 2013 MY.

Rob's right. In a year, they'll be gone.

 

[catbert]

It's obvious, the Corvette advertising that I see is all about maximizing the profits from the existing customer base. I don't see evidence of any major ad campaign (or certainly any regional campaign in the NYC metro area) where Corvette is actually going after increasing market share.

My location is entirely relevant to the discussion. Since there is more money than brains in New Jersey, it is a perfect example of where the Corvette should be growing. It's not an excuse, I call 'em like I see 'em and I see absolutely no market enthusiasm for the Vette here. None. V6 notwithstanding. Unit sales are down while overall unit car sales are up in the US.

I freely admit to missing a big GM marketing point. I always wondered why the Camaro got the part for the Transformer movies. Well gee, the future for GM is the Camaro, not the Corvette. Oh, NOW I get it. I'm over 50 and even I saw the movies. You will remember the Camaro is a good seller...with a ballsy V6.

Marketing - what marketing? GM hasn't really ever "marketed" the Vette in the traditional sense. Every once in a while they will throw out an ad or two, but they haven't invested in an on-going, cohesive effort to maintain and grow the brand. From 96 through 2007 -2008, Chevy just cranked them out, and mostly current owner snapped them up at the rate of 30,000, or so units a year...no sweat. GM execs would come out a couple times a year and glad hand enthusiast, mostly current owners, and that was the end of marketing. They were satisfied with the low hanging fruits (current owners).

The new Camaro was a huge investment as well as a image piece, and GM has poured in tons of money for an extensive marketing effort that included all sorts of media, and lots of it, racing teams in several series and God knows what else. The result - Camaro dumped Mustang despite Ford's best efforts. Thar's probably something even GM didn't expect.

Corvette marketing versus Camaro marketing: no comparison, because GM doesn't seem to get it, or worse, doesn't care about the long-term viability of the Vette. Chevy doesn't need to spend huge bucks on Vette marketing, but they have to do more than they are doing now or it won't matter how good the C7 is, or what is under the hood.

I'm not optimistic.

 

[oldpilot]

Keep the V8

When the '55 Chevy came out with the 265, it was like the heavens opened up and brought a new sound to the neighborhood. The Corvette finally had some guts to go with it's looks and it didn't sound like a British sportscar. It's only gotten better through the years. I say keep refining the V8 and keep building it.

 

[dcsteg]

Total 2011 Corvette Production: 13,394
2012 Corvettes Produced to Date: 4,300

Sign of the times?

In 2011 only 904 Z06's were made.

 

[dcsteg]

I haven't read all of the posts yet, but one thing I didn't see anyone mention, out of the posts I did read, is that a 6-cylinder and 8-cylinder have different rev limits, and thus, different torque, etc. Also, a V6, or inline-6 for that matter, requires more "thrashing around" to achieve these higher outputs. This in itself isn't a bad thing until it comes to the longevity of the engine.

I also have a 2010 Toyota Tacoma and getting on the freeway is an adventure in terror. To get up to freeway speed in the short distance of the on-ramps near my home, the Toyota's engine screams, in protest, like a Banshee. By contrast, when I get on the freeway in my '89, the tires are usually what's screaming, and I'm not even pushing the engine at half-throttle.

One has got to wonder what kind of damage all that thrashing has GOT to be doing to the internals of that smaller engine...

Thank you very much, but a V6 has no place in a CORVETTE!!!

Yep...a V6 twin turbo will make max hp between 8-9000 rpm after max torque is long gone.

No substitute for cubic inches. I'll stay with my 2011 Z 427.

 

[B747VET]

I agree the ZR1 with the supercharged highly modified LS3 (called the LS9) has run out of steam and pretty much only sells with very deep discounts.

But, shutting down the ZO6 in the same year would be another huge blunder by Chevy. Yes, they could probably kill the more exotic ZO6/ZO7 along with the ZR1, but the basic ZO6 with the LS7 has to evolve, not die.

Otherwise, Chevy once again repeats their historically typical blunder of pioneering a ground breaking car only to give up just when the wave is cresting and retreat to the safety of deeper and less exciting waters.

If Chevy finally has the guts to evolve the ZO6 into a very different beast from the C7 and then simultaneously introduce a smaller, lighter runabout with at least a 340 HP option, at a lower price point than the C7, they might just be able to evolve into a stand alone brand, at least from a profit perspective.

If Chevy makes such a leap, the Grand Sport concept would likely have to go but the Z51 could remain as the basic C7 handling upgrade.

Could the ZO6/LS7 combo be replaced by a ZO6 with a cheaper to manufacture supercharged LS3 putting out around 520 HP? Maybe, but it still would have to be very different from the C7 and that is still a road not traveled by GM/Chevy.

However, the easy and more likely GM/Chevy path is to kill the ZR1 & the ZO6, keep the basic C7 and bring out an underpowered V6 derivative C7 and then fire a bunch of MBAs when the underpowered V6 flops.

 

[Chuckster]

Should GM be a LEADER or Follower?

I quite certain that GM will sooner or later compete in both V8 and V6 engineering.
The question about the inquiry should GM continue production V8 engines due to the drop in production numbers is NOT a fair question.
I am almost certain that GM has been quite involved with the engineering and testing of their V6 engines in order to stay competitive with street and economic values of fuel savings and efficiency.
Personally, I am a V8 person when it comes to GM and the Corvette. That combination is what made the Corvette to what it is today in both street and racing competition..
I voted to maintain the V8 power in the Vette but could definitely visualize a "kick-ass" V6 in the not too distant horizon for 2 logical reasons. 1 - To make the engineering and styling affordability to Corvette fans
and Secondly to be able to compete in another arena of the racing world.
In short: I would like to see both avenues come to fruition to keep GM/Corvette a strong world renown icon.
Then again, It's My Thought - - and I'm right!

 

[m_fry]

Want to increase sales?

Make em in RHD as well! At present it cost's Australians almost another 50k to convert a C6 to RHD (average final
cost $110k) . So if the Corvette was made in RHD direct form the factory I'm sure they would sell for far less than
the combined cost of purchasing/importing/converting.

Australia is only one RHD market around the world. Other major markets are Japan, England, South Africa, New Zealand,
Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong etc etc. Want to sell more? then produce vehicles for the rest of the world not just
the US. They are prepared to pay the dollars!

Mark