No battle plan survives contact with the enemy.

[vigman]

you ALMOST had it.. in pix #1

If you tilted up... the numbers are stamped on the air horn ( aka where the choke valve is ) ....
you can see em at an angle at the top left of the frame...
This looks like a 3800 series.... smaller bowls...single feed
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c1-and-c2-corvettes/2926374-new-holley-3810-vs-original.html

 

[haganml]

If you tilted up... the numbers are stamped on the air horn ( aka where the choke valve is ) ....
you can see em at an angle at the top left of the frame...
This looks like a 3800 series.... smaller bowls...single feed
New Holley 3810 vs original - Corvette Forum

I finally have a decent photo of the numbers. The background is a shelf of boxes with some NOS parts and other original parts, the top boxes are the original wheels.

Mark.

 

[vigman]

Well looks like I was wrong again....

Yours looks to be the correct style.....
1964 2818 421 Dated 327 Holley Corvette Resto Avail | eBay
Common wisdom states:
Stamps are structured with three digits.
The first designating year,
Second designating month.
Third designating week.
Month has one digit so for Oct they used a 0, Nov used A, and Dec used B.

BUT I found this:
[TABLE="class: tborder, width: 1572, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="class: alt1, bgcolor: #000000"]In late 1963 through mid 1964 Holley used a four digit date code for this carb. The first three digits ranged from 001-366, and represent the day of the year, while the fourth digit represents the year. For example: 1963 would represent the 196th day, which would be July 15th of 1963, while 1964 would represent the 196th day, which would be July 14th of 1964, which was a leap year. Check the date code carefully for a fourth number, as some of the stampings were very light. If you find a fourth number, most likely, it will be a 4, which would would mean that your carb was built on May 2, 1964, which would have ended up on an early '65 350hp or 365hp engine, since the production year began sales in June.

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tborder, width: 100%, align: center"]
[/TABLE]
So 1313 = Day 131 year 1963
Starting from Jan -1 1963 ( yes I know it states LATE 63 ) .. but I wanted to do the math... 131 Working days makes it Wed July 3 1963 ( not counting UAW hoildays )..
So the date formula works...
But Late 63 to MID 64 ( and yours is a 65 ) ... maybe you got the LAST prebuilt sitting on the shelf..
The 2818-1 means something too.. I can now see how NCRS judges ( and owners ) can get all OCD on their car...


Maybe John Z can impart more wisdom.....

Original ( as in aluminum Knock off wheels ) ?

 

[JohnZ]

[TABLE="class: tborder, width: 1572, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="class: alt1, bgcolor: #000000"]In late 1963 through mid 1964 Holley used a four digit date code for this carb. The first three digits ranged from 001-366, and represent the day of the year, while the fourth digit represents the year. For example: 1963 would represent the 196th day, which would be July 15th of 1963, while 1964 would represent the 196th day, which would be July 14th of 1964, which was a leap year. Check the date code carefully for a fourth number, as some of the stampings were very light. If you find a fourth number, most likely, it will be a 4, which would would mean that your carb was built on May 2, 1964, which would have ended up on an early '65 350hp or 365hp engine, since the production year began sales in June.


[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
So 1313 = Day 131 year 1963
Starting from Jan -1 1963 ( yes I know it states LATE 63 ) .. but I wanted to do the math... 131 Working days makes it Wed July 3 1963 ( not counting UAW hoildays )..
So the date formula works...
But Late 63 to MID 64 ( and yours is a 65 ) ... maybe you got the LAST prebuilt sitting on the shelf..
The 2818-1 means something too.. I can now see how NCRS judges ( and owners ) can get all OCD on their car...


Maybe John Z can impart more wisdom.....

Original ( as in aluminum Knock off wheels ) ?

Nope - don't know where that quoted info came from, but it's wrong. ALL Holleys built through 1972 used a 3-digit date code (year, month, week). After 1972, they went to a 4-digit date code, where the first 3 digits are a Julian date (day of the year), and the 4th digit is the year.

The Holley 2818-1 in the photo above is dated 1313, which is the 131st day of either '73, '83, or '93; it's a Service replacement for the 2818-1 originally used on 1965 Corvette 327/350hp and 327/365hp engines.

 

[haganml]

Maybe John Z can impart more wisdom.....

Original ( as in aluminum Knock off wheels ) ?[/QUOTE]

No, steel wheels with original wheel covers. The center of the hubcaps have faded but are still there. I have 5 wheels (1 in the spare carrier) and 4 wheel covers. The spare is there but is bald/near bald. Just had a thought, are the wheels dated?

Like your Roadster my car will never be numbers matching. I do plan on adding Vintage Air A/C and dual circuit power brakes. I need it to be a more or less daily driver not a garage queen/show car. I know it will be driven less than I'll want it to be because of fuel prices today but I do want to take road trips in this ride. I would like to spend some time on Old Route 66 out in the desert. There is a family cabin I have part ownership in Landers CA we can use as a home base. I like driving the desert blacktop in a two seater V8. Just me and my wife. She will retire in 22 months and we can do some back roads traveling.

 

[haganml]

Nope - don't know where that quoted info came from, but it's wrong. ALL Holleys built through 1972 used a 3-digit date code (year, month, week). After 1972, they went to a 4-digit date code, where the first 3 digits are a Julian date (day of the year), and the 4th digit is the year.

The Holley 2818-1 in the photo above is dated 1313, which is the 131st day of either '73, '83, or '93; it's a Service replacement for the 2818-1 originally used on 1965 Corvette 327/350hp and 327/365hp engines.

I've seen the same information on the Web about the 4 digit date code. It listed May of 1963, 1973, 1983 etc. If you can believe anything on the WWW.

Service replacement or original it doesn't matter as long as it will mix gasoline and air. Mike asked for the photo and there it is, I will let the Corvette gods figure it out. I personally am more familiar with the Quadrajet mixer (old 1968 Camaro 327) than the Holley. The car came with all these boxes of parts. NOS, original and shiny chrome "custom" parts. I know that the original car is more valuable than a Frankenstein but I have to be comfortable while I drive it. I will keep the boxes of parts I do not use and blaspheme the car and drive it. At my skill level it will not be a compromised Corvette, no cutting or permanent alterations.

IF I sell it the next owner can worry about the correctness of it all. As I've said before I want to hear that V8 SBC rumble and stuff a few corners faster than the law allows. If this car doesn't do that, I'll make one that will. Oh, and not worry about the smog fascists.

Mark.

 

[vigman]

Oh I get it Mark

But... if your boltin parts on...or rebuilding or whatever... wouldn't it be better to keep as many original parts as possible?

Like that manifold.. that is a correct one.. ( which is worth 3-600 bucks to a restorer ) depending on condition..and date code..
( which BTW is under the heat baffle on he bottom, rivited in ) .... PLUS it's a damn good manifold.

The carb is not a number matcher... but it's a real deal replacement.. and there are rebuilders that will make it look new with original finishes & plating.
But that costs.... so assume the carb rebuild ( the full monte ) is X dollars... and seat covers ( leather ) are the same amount of beans.. I'll bet you'll go with the covers.. like I would... The $$ needs to go to get it running and safe...

 

[haganml]

But... if your boltin parts on...or rebuilding or whatever... wouldn't it be better to keep as many original parts as possible?

Like that manifold.. that is a correct one.. ( which is worth 3-600 bucks to a restorer ) depending on condition..and date code..
( which BTW is under the heat baffle on he bottom, rivited in ) .... PLUS it's a damn good manifold.

The carb is not a number matcher... but it's a real deal replacement.. and there are rebuilders that will make it look new with original finishes & plating.
But that costs.... so assume the carb rebuild ( the full monte ) is X dollars... and seat covers ( leather ) are the same amount of beans.. I'll bet you'll go with the covers.. like I would... The $$ needs to go to get it running and safe...

I plan to keep what is there, no LS4, Rack and Pinion with mono-leaf front suspension, flared wheel housings, 11X22 wheels and I may assemble the Muncie 4 speed (numbers matching) and install in instead of the Tremec 5 speed. I like that manifold too, dual plane high rise aluminum and built for GM. Also it came with the car. I will overhaul the carburetor if it needs it. It looks like the PO was going to restomod the car. I have paperwork for a ZZ383 GM engine and a 671 supercharger/manifold. That includes receipts for polishing the blower also pulleys and a belt. All that stuff is missing. Someone had big plans for this body. All I want is a C2 Corvette to tool around in, not a statement of how dope I am. I am not that guy. Only someone who knows Corvettes will appreciate the car. My, my, steel wheels and stock wheel covers, no super model will look twice.

All that said I can appreciate a nice Restomod! I love Triple 5 Chevrolet cars, I have seen complete restorations to unbelievable Fuel Altered drag cars. I liked them all! I had a 56 Sedan Delivery and wish I had it today. What I have is this 1965 Corvette basket case. I will make it mine and drive it the way I want it to be.

I'll stop now, just slipped off my soapbox. It's an election year and I got caught up in the fever gripping the country.

Yes, the seat covers. No duct tape for me. Oh, and I am not a Corvette expert by any means.

Mark.

 

[vigman]

Clarity

Well that carb at minimum will need a gasket kit W/O duct tape LOL~

And even in a beater C2 you will get lots of looks ( and not bad ones ) ..
Because people know your rebuilding, not driving to the weckin yard to drop it off...
Mark U & I are going to the same place...
A car in daily driver status... on a budget.. makin every dime count...and being reliable...

On your Tremec.. is the throw out bearing hydraulic or manual lever action??

I would seriously consider an MSD blaster spark amp & coil...
My car had a monster 750 double pump that was a leaker and running WAY to rich...
The car would ALMOST not run with that setup... the MSD turned it into a 1 blip and VROOM..
No more " slightly fouled" plug issues...

If I could shake this flu cold .. whatever that has turned me into Jaba the Snot.. I'd start boltin parts up...
Hard to turn wrenches when you can't breath well.

The new " fake " stock shifter arm came in...
9 leaf spring & door seals... on the way...
New Fuel pump ordered..
Not sure which flavor hard line from pump to carb to get ( yet )...
Now thinking about getting your style carb ( vs Holley 4150 650 cfm ). but that's NOT gonna be cheap...
Looking at 461 manifolds ( which will take care of all sorts of weird work arounds for plumbing ).

Doing research on "better" seat options.....
Saving chips for Tremec & vintage air...

Alt harness extension, Alt header mount. SS wire clamps are here...

So I'm stuck ... in bed... reading and planning for world domination ( Muhahahahahhah )...

Mike

 

[haganml]

Well that carb at minimum will need a gasket kit W/O duct tape LOL~


On your Tremec.. is the throw out bearing hydraulic or manual lever action??


If I could shake this flu cold .. whatever that has turned me into Jaba the Snot.. I'd start boltin parts up...
Hard to turn wrenches when you can't breath well.


Doing research on "better" seat options.....
Saving chips for Tremec & vintage air...

Alt harness extension, Alt header mount. SS wire clamps are here...

So I'm stuck ... in bed... reading and planning for world domination ( Muhahahahahhah )...

Mike

Jaba the Snot, whew it will take a while before I clean that mental image out!

This Tremec application uses the factory mechanical lever configuration in the bell-housing. Mind you that I have the transmission in a box waiting for a engine. When I get to that point I will know more about how it will install.

The A/C install, I hope to use cast iron manifolds with factory (or reproduction) mounts and a Sanden or other modern variable displacement compressor. Yes factory exhaust, I want that experience. I have the correct manifolds (including the warmup valve for the choke).

So Brain what are we doing tonight? (answer) World Domination of course!

Mark.

 

[JohnZ]

Maybe John Z can impart more wisdom.....

Just had a thought, are the wheels dated?

Yes, original steel wheels are dated, but you have to dismount the tires to see the dates - they're stamped on the rim under the tire. Photo below is a '63 wheel (dated December '62), but a '64 wheel would have the same 15 x 5-1/2K stamp, with a later date.

 

[vigman]

John WHERE do you have this stash of secret information ?

Is it years of tribal knowledge... or a secret book?

Where ever it comes from it's GREAT keep it coming.....

Mike

 

[haganml]

Yes, original steel wheels are dated, but you have to dismount the tires to see the dates - they're stamped on the rim under the tire. Photo below is a '63 wheel (dated December '62), but a '64 wheel would have the same 15 x 5-1/2K stamp, with a later date.

The only wheel that has rubber on it is the spare. The rest are in a box that the American Racing wheels came in. I will look for the date next time I have them off the shelf. I will remove those alloy wheels, it looks like the tires will get into the body with aggressive driving. I do not have the wheel locks that are on the wheels. Not an issue but not a priority now. Most of the wheels I have seen have the manufacture and size on them. I haven't been looking for date codes.

From what I have been reading it would appear that all the parts on this car are dated. That would make it hard (not imposable) to make a counterfeit car.

As an aside I've heard that there are more 1967 L71 F40 (? the document I looked at on the GM Heritage site recorded the heavy duty suspension in 1967 as F41) Corvettes driving on the road than were ever manufactured by Chevrolet.

Thanks for the detailed information JohnZ.

Mark.

 

[vigman]

Time for the cheap socket trick

Get a cheap socket from your local swap meet and POUND it over the lock lug....
The trick is to measure the size diff....and have a good SLEDGE
Your trying to make a pressfit ( read a .01 size diff, or smaller )
Worked for me for YEARS

Mike

 

[JohnZ]

From what I have been reading it would appear that all the parts on this car are dated. That would make it hard (not imposable) to make a counterfeit car.

As an aside I've heard that there are more 1967 L71 F40 (? the document I looked at on the GM Heritage site recorded the heavy duty suspension in 1967 as F41) Corvettes driving on the road than were ever manufactured by Chevrolet.

Thanks for the detailed information JohnZ.

Mark.

Yes, almost all of the parts are dated one way or another. Out of the 22,940 67's built, 3,754 were L-71's, and 2,198 of those had F-41 (F-41 was only available on the L-71).

 

[haganml]

Get a cheap socket from your local swap meet and POUND it over the lock lug....
The trick is to measure the size diff....and have a good SLEDGE
Your trying to make a pressfit ( read a .01 size diff, or smaller )
Worked for me for YEARS

Mike

They are McGuard wheel locks. Just get a master set and take the number and buy a new key. If it is an emergency (flat tire or something else) that socket trick works. I usually drive them on with an air hammer. It has to be a low quality socket that will form around the lock. Don't try to use a Snap On, Mac, Cornwell, or Hazet socket. They will split or crack rather than mold themselves around the lock. I have heard (I can be wrong on that) that Matco, Kobalt and Craftsman were offshore and were soft enough. For sure Harbor Freight is inexpensive and may well work, never tried. I have welded a shaft to the lock and removed them that way. I'm not concerned about messing up my "pretty" wheels, but I do plan on selling them someday.

Say Mike, you report you have been using that trick for years! Is there anything we should know?

Mark.

 

[haganml]

Yes, almost all of the parts are dated one way or another. Out of the 22,940 67's built, 3,754 were L-71's, and 2,198 of those had F-41 (F-41 was only available on the L-71).

I like the idea of a L79, more my style. I am missing the original engine. What kind of replacement would be acceptable for my situation? I was planning on a GM Performance engine, the 290/350 is the least expensive of the offerings from GM. It has cast iron heads (they are a Vortec (6 bolts) style I believe) Someone recommended an aluminum head ZZ4 to accommodate the 3844461 manifold (8 bolts). I priced buying the base engine and adding new heads (it will have a externally balanced flywheel and one piece rear seal) and it would be about $150.00 savings. A replacement engine will not have any numbers on it. I will not stamp this engine and feel full disclosure is warranted. I do have a 327 block with the correct casting numbers and date codes. BUT the numbers on the engine were removed.
There is a "F" remaining between where a die grinder removed all of the original numbers. Not a block I would want to use. The heads are correct for the application. It doesn't appear to be a counterfeit car, but that engine suggests that it is. Is there a way that I can experience this Corvette as it was using an acceptable replacement engine.

 

[vigman]

Psst wanna buy some centerlines... cheap?

In my earlier days... we would buy all sorts of stuff ( car projects ) and flip em on the cheap for our " friends " who needed wheels..
Some of the cars just needed something minor... like a cam had flattened out..... some the entire engine had puked from lack of maint...
We had to come up with some workarounds... ( like this socket trick ) .... The ability to do this and " barter " paid for a bunch of zoom zoom parts for my " keeper car " ( of the week )..

In High School, College and up to present day... the ability to do it yourself has saved me time & time again...

So back to your engine.... if you could ... you could run your heads... but they would need new seats milled in ( for unleaded ) ...guides & seals.. but then your top end would be " more correct "...Aluminum heads are a big weight savings, but if you have a cooling system issue... whoops...

There are date codes on the Alt, starter, water pump, glass , distrib....etc etc.. but like the Holley it's just a date...
All the dates need to some what jive with the body build date.... The VIN and the more paper trail you have ( that's legit ) the car is worth more....
And if it's judged via NCRS... that will give you a real wake up call on how far you need to go the run with the big dogs....

Me.... It's interesting, and Im trying to be somewhere in the middle, and it is just a hobby...But I see the closer to original the better resale..

How much? That's the toughie.... Is it worth it... only you can judge it.. but the more of these cars left standing in any condition.. make the price go up..

Here's an example... would you go through all the effort to pull the stock oil pan...pound out all the dents.... clean, repaint & reinstall on your new engine?
Some wouldn't have it any other way... others wouldn't think twice about putting in a new 6 QT pan... and toss the old one..

I remember taking a 409 out of a buddies Impala since he had a rod knock... it smoked... it leaked... and none of us had any chips.... but we did have a line on a 68 camaro that was rear ended... 327 auto stocker.... So we wrenched all weekend changing engines.. and got his Impala running again.. and took the old engine to the junk yard....That 409 in that Impala would be worth big bucks today.... but to us at the time... we didn't think about it.. at all...

So maybe preserving what I have now... or trying to get it back as complete as possible... will help preserve some part of automotive history with my kids..

Mike

 

[haganml]

In High School, College and up to present day... the ability to do it yourself has saved me time & time again...

So back to your engine.... if you could ... you could run your heads... but they would need new seats milled in ( for unleaded ) ...guides & seals.. but then your top end would be " more correct "...Aluminum heads are a big weight savings, but if you have a cooling system issue... whoops...

So maybe preserving what I have now... or trying to get it back as complete as possible... will help preserve some part of automotive history with my kids..

Mike

I understand, I have never paid to have my cars repaired. I don't know how anybody can pay for parts AND labor! This Corvette is a hobby for me and I am enjoying the process as much as the car.

Just to get the Coupe on the road I will install a crate engine with as much of the original equipment as I can use and drive it. After sorting out the rest of the car it will come apart for paint anyway. That's when I will get the A/C and power brakes. Then will be the time for those originality decisions.

I will take the 327 apart to find out just what IS in there. Cam? Pistons? Rods? Crankshaft? Is it a ball of rust? Just opening the boxes and finding all this cool stuff has me more involved in cars than the last 10 years of my professional life.

The cruses to different parts of the world and trips to different states are nice. My wife and I enjoy doing those things together. But this is MY life. Figuring out what is original, getting this giant puzzle working and talking to people who understand just what this is. Going to car shows and looking at everyone's projects. To make a run like Jackfit did in his roadster. That is cool!

Mark.

 

[haganml]

Discovery!

While waiting for parts I have done some checking of parts. Rear end is a 4:11 positraction unit (AP 11 9 64). The transmission is a M21, 2.20 low, 10 spline input shaft/27 spline output shaft and has VIN on it with P1128 date code.

The input shaft has one ring on it, cross referencing that with the casting number 3851325 indicates that it is a M21 with 2.20 / 1.64 / 1.28 / 1.00 gear ratios. Reference Paul Cangialosi @ <www.5speeds.com>.

This has changed my original plans for the car. I will use the Tremec 5 speed (0.64 final drive) due to the lower (numerically higher) gear rear end. It is a heavy beast and looks larger than the Muncie. With the cost of fuel the over drive will help on trips.

The shifter is internal and will help with the size issue. I have been examining the installation instructions for a mid-year Corvette. They seem uncomplicated, I'm sure there will be issues.

The Coupe is still sitting there without a window. Parts were not in my order (no charges for the missing parts). How does Corvette Central handle this situation, anyone have experience with this?


Mark. </www.5speeds.com>