planning ahead for motor reassembly

[BarryK]

hi all
IF, a big IF, all goes well this weekend hopefully I'll get the motor painted and without any major problems to fix from my efforts.

I'm now trying to plan ahead for the reassembly of everything and have just a few questions if you can put up with more of them from me.

I know from a recommendation from JohnZ that when I reinstall the intake manifold I should put a drop of Permatex on the tip of the intake holddown bolts to seal the threads and keep oil from seeping up. It was also recommended to me that when I put the oil filler tube back into the intake to put some anti-seize on the bottom of it before I put it in.

what about all the rest of the bolts of parts I took off the motor and other fittings?
How do I know when it's appropiate to use a thread sealer such as the Permatex, or an anti-sieze, or locktite, or whatever?
I have to reinstall the following and not sure what I should use on any of the bolts or fittings if I should use anything at all:
water pump
exhaust manifolds
sidepeipes to exhaust manifolds
radiator hoses to intake and waterpump
all the heater hoses
bypass fitting and hose from WP to intake
new intake nipple fittings (for water pump and heater hoses)
intake manifold
oil filler tube on intake
valve covers

any of the other parts that are off I don't foresee issues that I have questions about............ yet.

also, someone else also recommended that I use "Indian Head" to smear around the insides of the various hoses - radiator hoses and heater hoses- when I go to put them all back on. I've never seen that mentioned in threads on here. Is that a good idea?

sorry for all the 'newbie" type questions again, but i want to make sure I put things back together correctly and to reduce my chances of leaks when i'm done.

 

[Bwmurph]

Hi Barry,

Well IMHO you want to use Perma-tex or similar sealant anyplace where there's water or oil that can seep back up the threads and anti-seize just about everywhere else. So, I would bolt it back up as follows:

water pump - Permatex (non-hardening type)
exhaust manifolds - Anti-seize
Side Pipes - anti seize
radiator hoses - little bit of Armor-All on the ID (yeah, yeah, yeah, I know
how you feel about Armor all; use something similar)
Heater hoses - same as radiator hoses
Bypass fitting - Teflon tape or Permatex
Nipple fittings - Teflon tape or Permatex
Intake manifold bolts - Permatex or silicone
Oil filler tube - anti-seize
Valve cover bolts - nothing

Don't know what "Indian Head" is, but sure would like to find out; sounds like interesting stuff.

When do you think re-assembly will happen; let me know and if I'm around I'll give you a hand (provided you have that garage nice and toasty).

Later,

Bernie O.

 

[BarryK]

cool, just the info I was looking for Bernie. I greatly appreciate it!

not sure of the date of reassembly yet, it all depends on just how well the motor block painting goes this weekend BUT if all goes well than i'm hoping to start reassembly sometime next week.
I'll always welcome a helping hand and the garage gets nice and warm and comfy to work in with the space heater going - that's how we have been working on my buddy Andy's car in there lately.

 

[jims427400]

Berry,
Well I've got the tripower all boxed up ready to ship off to Craig. I opted stopping at the intake though.Have you gotten your carb back yet ?

 

[BarryK]

Jim
no, not yet but i just sent it out on the 21st. Figure it wouldn't have gotten to him until probably the 25th because of thanksgiving so he's only had it about a week. I won't even start looking for it for at least another week or so.

 

[BarryK]

Don't know what "Indian Head" is, but sure would like to find out; sounds like interesting stuff.

here it is:

http://www.permatex.com/products/prodidx.asp?automotive=yes&f_call=get_item&item_no=20539

 

[ChuckG]

I LOVE Indian Head. Sometimes, in the middle of the night, I'll sneak out into the garage, open a bottle and sniff it.

Seriously, I'm no engine expert, but I've been using Indian Head gasket compound/shellac for 40 years. I use it on gaskets, and also on intake and water pump bolts.

The procedure to be VERY careful with is putting on the intake manifold. Pay particular attention to the 4 "corners" of the manifold, (the 4 "V's" created where the heads meet the front and rear of the block). THAT'S where they'll leak oil.
Chuck

 

[Dakota kid]

Berry, I wish you all the skill and luck!

 

[BarryK]

Hi Chuck

what are you doing up at 3:14am?

I wasn't so much questioning your recommendation on the Indian Head, I know you love that stuff - even beyond the sniffing of it - I just never heard of it or seen it ever mentioned on here so I was trying to get more info on it.
I did find it at my local Pep Boys.

Yep, i know about the intake, everyone has warned me about those corners. i'll be sure to use a really good bead of the Permatex Ultra-copper in those corners. i want NO leaks!

BTW, I got in that paint from Bill Hirsch you suggested

 

[BarryK]

Berry, I wish you all the skill and luck!

well, i have no skill so i need all the luck i can get!

 

[warren s]

Barry

I also used Indian Head on lots of projects. Any place that a gasket could slip and move out of position I used a small amout of it to hold the gasket in place and used Permatex on the other side.

Good luck with the rebuild!

 

[I'mAVettehead]

Barry, Don't use Indian Hean inside the hoses, you'll never get them off. Indian Head has it's place but it's not inside the hose. Teflon tape was never used in the factory if your going to use it use it sparingly so it can't be seen. Good Luck.

 

[BarryK]

Barry

I also used Indian Head on lots of projects. Any place that a gasket could slip and move out of position I used a small amout of it to hold the gasket in place and used Permatex on the other side.

Good luck with the rebuild!

Hi Warren
so you use it on the gasket kinda like a glue to hold it in position....... ok, makes sense. thanks!

 

[Kid_Again]

I agree with the general advice that you've been given. I also agree that I see no reason why one would want to seal the hoses with that shellac. If you have clean mounting surfaces, the hose is clean on the inside and you don't stress the hose out of shape, there is no need to to seal it. Viewed another way, if you need to seal the hose, then you should remove it and fix the problem.

I never thought of ArmourAll for hoses. For the really tough hoses (like a new lower water pump hose) I will give the metal part a shot of wd40. Not a lot, just enough to get the hose started.

I would also say that I tend to use more than a drop of sealant on the manifold and water pump bolts. I first clean the threads with 2+2 (brake cleaner is fine) and then apply a fair amount at the bottom of the thread. With antisieze grease, I use a fairly small amount as I believe the grease covers a very large surface area because of its nature.

Good luck.

 

[BarryK]

Barry, Don't use Indian Hean inside the hoses, you'll never get them off. Indian Head has it's place but it's not inside the hose. Teflon tape was never used in the factory if your going to use it use it sparingly so it can't be seen. Good Luck.

Thanks Vettehead. That's why I was asking. it seemed to me that it would make life difficult later on but that's what had been recommended. it sure would ensure no leaks from the hoses though!
ok, I'll limit the Indian Head to the gasket surfaces only.
i'll use permatex on the intake and other bolts.

i'm not using the teflon tape, I'll be using permatex on the bolts and fittings.

 

[BarryK]

I never thought of ArmourAll for hoses. For the really tough hoses (like a new lower water pump hose) I will give the metal part a shot of wd40. Not a lot, just enough to get the hose started.

I would also say that I tend to use more than a drop of sealant on the manifold and water pump bolts. I first clean the threads with 2+2 (brake cleaner is fine) and then apply a fair amount at the bottom of the thread. With antisieze grease, I use a fairly small amount as I believe the grease covers a very large surface area because of its nature.

Good luck.

thanks kid, that's just what I was thinking also regarding the hoses. Since I won't have Arourall near my cars I was going to go with WD40 just to help slide them on. Thanks for the confirmation.

Ok, I'll go with two drops of the permatex on the intake bolts than . I just don't want to use so much that it it goes all over and makes a mess as I'm putting in each bolt of course.

Most of the bolts I've bought nice new replacement ones so the threads should be fine and I'll be using a threadchaser in all the holes they go in first to make sure the threads in there are all cleaned out.

 

[stepinwolf]

Sorry Barry, but luck will not get the job done

well, i have no skill so i need all the luck i can get!

Barry,

You will without a doubt, receive many recommendations to address the correct way your intake manifold should be sealed. Most, well intentioned Forum members will give you their recipe for how they do it, or rather how they think it should be done.

Over the years many different products, gaskets, rubber seals, goo, goop, and what ever, has been used with more or less some degree of success to try and correct the problem of oil leakage between the flat lower portion ( front and rear ) of the intake manifold, and the top of the block at the lifter valley. Today in the trade, it is an accepted fact that in order to eliminate any and all leaks in this area, the only 100% cure is to seal the area with a silicon based sealer.

Even the manufacturers have eliminated the gaskets and glue, and now use strictly a thick bead of sealer, ( about the size of your little finger ) to solve the problem. Check the first photo to see how my latest engine was supplied from GM. Notice how much of the sealer has oozed out of the joint, this surplus, both inside and outside the engine is what helps keep the bead in place, and MUST NOT under any circumstances be removed or cut away.

That being said I don't want to rain on your parade, but I can tell you right now, exactly where your manifold is going to leak, and will in the process mess up your freshly painted intake manifold. If you follow the above instruction, and are able to completely seal the manifold, the last problem area that must be addressed is with the mounting bolts.

Located in the center section of the intake manifold, these bolts do not bottom out in the block, but actually lead directly into the lifter valley. Then when the engine is started, the oil that is splashing around , ends up on the bottom of the bolts, and is helped along with pressure inside the block, and finds it's way up the threads, and deposits itself onto the little depression on top intake manifold in little puddles.

During a complete engine rebuild, these holes in the block are for all intents and purposes, are almost sterilized through the various cleaning procedures, and if the engine builder seals all the bolt threads correctly, he has a reasonable chance that there will be no leaks. The problem in your case, is that these holes in the block, are extremely difficult to clean without contaminating the lifter valley or the inside of the engine. As a consequence, when you put everything back together, you put some silicon sealer on the threads and expect that the problem will be solved.

Sorry, but regardless of the sealer you use, if there is any contaminates, oils, etc. in these holes, I will bet you my Corvette against a dollar that in a very short time after the engine is back in service, you will start to see the oil staining your freshly refinished intake manifold.

The solution,,,,, well there is no 100% sure way, other then do everything possible to get these holes in the block as clean as is possible. Once they are squeaky dry, coat the lower half of the bolt threads with a generous coating of silicon sealer, and torque them all down to specs. If the engine Gods are on your side, you can expect to have a reasonable chance of not having any leaks in this area.

Lastly the silicon you should be using on the intake, and also the bolts, is not the " Parmatex copper " previously mentioned, but rather the " Permatek, Ultra Grey " # 82194. I would not be surprised in the least, if this was not what is now used by the factory, Check engine pic.

Sorry for the long post ( I think you are rubbing off on me ) but there was no other way I could explain this simple process.

Good luck with your choices.

stepinwolf

 

[BarryK]

thanks for all the info Bob, as always it's well appreciated

I know from previous threads not to try and use the little gaskets that came in the set for the front and rear of the intake but to use the Permatx silicone instead. I was going to use a nice size bead to help make sure it seals well and to especially put plenty in the 4 corners where everyone has warned me about.
I'll be sure to spend extra time with the thread chaser and WD40 and/or brake cleaner on the intake bolt holes too to make sure they are nice and clean.

I was going to use the Permatex Ultra Copper because that is what had been recommended by most people including JohnZ. What's the difference between the Ultra-copper and the Ultra Grey?

 

[stepinwolf]

thanks for all the info Bob, as always it's well appreciated

I know from previous threads not to try and use the little gaskets that came in the set for the front and rear of the intake but to use the Permatx silicone instead. I was going to use a nice size bead to help make sure it seals well and to especially put plenty in the 4 corners where everyone has warned me about.
I'll be sure to spend extra time with the thread chaser and WD40 and/or brake cleaner on the intake bolt holes too to make sure they are nice and clean.

I was going to use the Permatex Ultra Copper because that is what had been recommended by most people including JohnZ. What's the difference between the Ultra-copper and the Ultra Grey?

Barry,

Maby you should read my response a little closer. Stay away from WD40, because inside the thread holes as it becomes a contaminant. The WD40 is used to free up frozen fasteners, and NOT a cleaning product. Spray some on a piece of glass with out wiping it up , and after a while look at what is left as a deposit. This is what will be logged in your bolt holes of you use it as a cleaner

As far as my suggestions for which sealer to use, I would have expected that my recommendations would have been sufficient, however it doesn't seem as if it is enough, so here is the tech part.

For starters the Grey is a newer product, and is an improved version of previous sealers. It is now sensor safe, and it has a much superior oil resistance. It is also designed for high torque application, and exceeds the performance requirements of all the manufacturers.

The copper, having a slightly higher temperature rating ( 700F. vs 625F ) would be better used a a sealer on the exhaust manifolds. This is where I use it and have NEVER had any leaking in or around the exhaust manifolds.

Signing off now Barry, so it comes down to use, what you choose, and see you again after engine start. :duh

Stepinwolf

 

[BarryK]

Bob, i was only going to use the WD40 with the thread chaser because that was the instructions that was listed with the thread chaser kit....... i'll take your advice though.

As for the sealant, i wasn't doubting your advice on the Ultra Grey, just trying to learn the differences bwteen the two since it was the copper version that had been recommended previously.
Besides, call me foolish or flakey, but when given advice on something I usually try to understand the reasons behind that advice or suggestion so I can better learn and understand. By doing that than maybe, just maybe, in the future I'd be able to utilize that info in other things and on other projects without having to come on and ask a million newbie type questions. If I don't actually learn anything while i'm doing all this, than other than a cleaner motor it would all be a waste of time and effort.