Project Anti-Ken-A Very Low Budget 350 build

[JohnZ]

Tom, many years of experience with SBC's tells me that most factory-original engines have the pistons .020"-.025" down in the hole; I think the published/advertised factory numbers for compression ratio are calculated assuming zero-deck and the .020" steel shim gaskets, as I've never seen an original engine that measured as high as the advertised number.

 

[Tom Bryant]

.025 deck height would give me a 9.1:1 compression ratio. Looks like I'm right on target.

Tom

 

[Jack]

Re: From the "Math is hard" dept.........

So in the case of the piston under consideration (compression ratio specs listed again below) I would have to say that these ratios were figured with a rather thick composit head gasket and a fair amount of deck height. Probably no decking of a stock spec block.

Sterling Hyereutectic flat top pistons
* Compression ratio: 8.24:1 (76cc heads), 8.55:1 (72cc heads), 8.88:1 (68cc heads), 9.24:1 (64cc heads), 9.96:1 (58cc heads) Tom

TOM:
SpeedPro/SealedPower offers a hyper piston that seems to have identical specs at nearly all CR's as above ... it is a flat top w/ 4 valve reliefs ... compression distance is 1.560" ... deck (down in the hole on stock 9.025" high block is 0.025" ... dome volume = minus 5cc ... part number H345NP. They also offer same w/ only 2 VR's ... increase in CR (beyond 4VR version) ranges about 0.3-0.6 ... but still has dome volume = minus 5cc ... part number H631P. Their catalog X-3009 states "Compression ratios in this catalog were calculated with a gasket thickness of .038." BTW, I've heard Sterling is subsidiary/knockoff of SpeedPro/SealedPower ... dunno if there's anything to that or not.

When down in the hole about 0.025"... optimum quench height can be achieved using thin steel shim gaskets ranging 0.015"- 0.025" when compressed. IMHO, best combo of this sort would optimize both flame travel and quench via 2 valve relief pistons & shim gaskets. With std 2VR H631P & shim gaskets on a stock 9.025” deck & 76cc heads ... I’m figuring 8.9:1 - 9.0:1 CR.

Originally posted by Tom Bryant 12353917 Camshaft Kits
8.0 - 9.5 to compression ratio, 2200 - 2600 cruise rpm. Basic rpm range 1500 - 4000, 6500 rpm attainable with proper valve springs and lifters. All model small-block Chevrolet V8 1955-66 California, 1955-68 with federal emissions. All non-emission trucks, and 1966-92 for off-highway applications.
Technical Notes: These are hydraulic flat tappet camshaft kits. The duration at .050 lift (intake/exhaust) is 204/214 degrees, and the valve lift is .420"/.442". Lobe centerline is 112. This camshaft kit is designed and manufactured by Crane Cam Co.®. It contains one camshaft and 16 tappets. Tom [/B]

That sounds like a good cam for what you're trying to do ... routinely referred to around here as an "RV" cam ... pretty smooth idle. Same (camshaft only) specs available as SpeedPro/SealedPower pn CS1014R, Clevite pn S2019, Perfect Circle pn 2291730, Wolverine Blue Racer (Crane’s red-headed stepchild) pn WG1103.

JACK:gap

 

[Tom Bryant]

Re: Re: From the "Math is hard" dept.........

TOM:
SpeedPro/SealedPower offers a hyper piston that seems to have identical specs at nearly all CR's as above ... it is a flat top w/ 4 valve reliefs ... compression distance is 1.560" ... deck (down in the hole on stock 9.025" high block is 0.025" ... dome volume = minus 5cc ... part number H345NP. They also offer same w/ only 2 VR's ... increase in CR (beyond 4VR version) ranges about 0.3-0.6 ... but still has dome volume = minus 5cc ... part number H631P. Their catalog X-3009 states "Compression ratios in this catalog were calculated with a gasket thickness of .038." BTW, I've heard Sterling is subsidiary/knockoff of SpeedPro/SealedPower ... dunno if there's anything to that or not.



JACK:gap

Speed Pro, Sealed Power, Sterling are all Federal Mogul brands and I'm fairly sure that they all come out of the F-M foundry in South Bend that I deliver liqued nitrogen to regularly. That's why I can't understand why the Speed Pro and the Sterling 4 relief pistons are priced so differently. Maybe the Speed Pro are lighter. If I hadn't imposed such a strict budget on myself for this project I would prefer the 2 relief pistons. I'll probably stick to the Sterling for the price advantage. Now when it's time to do an engine for the '59 that will be a different story. I wonder about the long term durabilty of the really thin shim gaskets. Chevy used to have a .018 stainless steel one for race engines.

They probably figure the compression ratios the same though so the info you provided helps clear that up. Thanks. The cam thing is still up in the air. That 917 cam would be good I'm sure but the criusing rpm at 60 mph range is 4-500 rpms low for my 3.73 rear gears. The 918 seems a little better matched in that area. Throttle response might be a little quicker with the 917 but with 3.73s and a 2.48 low 1st gear in the turbo 400 it should hit 2000 nearly as fast. Decisions, decisions.

I have a friend that has a '72 short C10 and he put the engine in it that he was going to use in his '69 Corvette project. He's pretty close to John Lingenfelter and John selected the cam with the Corvette and it's mods in mind. The cam isn't working out with the stock convertor in the truck so he has been talking to Comp Cams. I'm curious as to what he will end up with. I may hold off til I see.

Tom

 

[Tom Bryant]

Re: I like the laid-back 'tude on the person sitting behind the wheel!

Sounds like you are well under way with your plan. I have nothing but good things to say about my dealings with Summit so far. Support has been good, returns haven't been a problem, credit for returned merchandise was promptly applied, etc. As I said, nothing bad (so far).

What is the time frame you're looking at regarding completion of this part of the truck project?

_ken

Sorry Ken,
I missed your question earlier. To answer precisely I would have to say this spring. :L But seriously folks I do want to get this out of the way so I can get the front brakes and rear end rebuild finished. Then I can concentrate on the bodywork to some extent this summer. I don't care if I get it painted this year but I want to get the major stuff out of the way and actually drive it some. I would like to get the bugs all out of it and blow it apart for paint this fall before it gets cold again. Then I can assemble it next winter paying close attention to detail. At least that is the plan. I started working on the '59 trailer damage repair and would like to see some progress on that too.

Tom

 

[Jack]

12353918 Camshaft Kits
All "Marine" and off-road small-block Chevrolet V8. Compression ratio 8.75 - 10.5 to 1, 2600 - 3000 cruise rpm, basic rpm range 2000 - 4500 rpm, 6500 rpm attainable with proper valve springs and lifters.
Technical Notes: These are hydraulic flat tappet camshaft kits. The duration at .050 lift (intake/exhaust) is 214/224 degrees, and the valve lift is .442"/.465". Lobe centerline is 112. This camshaft kit is designed and manufactured by Crane Cam Cov.®. It contains one camshaft and 16 tappets

The 918 cam more closely matches the cruise rpm of my vehicle with the 3.73 gears and I like the specs. But then the LT1 might be fun too. Mechanical cams do not intimidate me. In fact I have never installed a performance hydraulic cam in any vehicle of my own to date. This engine may be a first...maybe.
I know that there are a multitude of excellent grings and companies makeing cams and we all have our favorites.

TOM:
918 cam has essentially same specs as Clevite pn 229-1988, SpeedPro/Sealed Power pn CS1106R, Wolverine pn WG1159.

Maybe Sterling (or Badger or Enginetech or Dynagear etc) has an equivalent to H631P or a similar 2VR? I dunno ... haven't found the interchange links for those.
JACK:gap

 

[Tom Bryant]

The friend I mentioned above just told me he had a .040 deck when he assembled his engine. No doubt that I'm going to get the short block together before I commit to heads and cam.

Tom

 

[Tom Bryant]

BTW Jack,

I have a Wolverine in my '59. It is from the '60s when Wolverine was their own company. 293 duration and .428 lift with solid lifters and 1.5 rockers. Basically a Duntov with extra lift. I always thought that 1.6 rockers would really wake that cam up. It has a nice sound through the off road exhaust.

 

[Jack]

The friend I mentioned above just told me he had a .040 deck when he assembled his engine. No doubt that I'm going to get the short block together before I commit to heads and cam.
Tom

I couldn't agree more Tom. Some pistons are virtually same as one another ... while the published compression distance may be 1.540 for one and 1.560 for another. For instance H345P+ CD = 1.540, 345NP CD = 1.540, H345NP CD = 1.560 ... all flat w/ 4VR. Using stock block, crank & rods ... all-important CD determines how far down in the hole. Depending on how/where you measure, piston rock in bore can cause variance.

BTW, have an L82 cam cloned by wolverine in my 388 ... wg1170.
JACK:gap

 

[Tom Bryant]

The L82 has always been one of my favorite cams in a 350. I corrected the duration I stated for the cam in my 283. It was 293. amazing what a 17 hour work day will do to the mind, what little I have. :L

 

[Tom Bryant]

Cliff (DkBG), his brother Steve, friend Larry and I went to Vettefest yesterday. I looked for a few things but all I came up with was a $7.00 chrome timing cover. :L Hard to clean up the old one for that amount. I found a few of the things on my list but they were all higher priced than Summit. I was thinking that this might be a good excuse to make a road trip to Akron. I have never been in the Summit store.

We met Impala (Eugene) there. He said to look for the guy with the grey hair and black leather jacket. It would have been easier to find somone without grey hair in that crowd. :L We had a nice visit and I'm looking forward to seeing Eugene out in his new '63 one of these days.

Also met up with Barb (BBB454) and Kimmy (Corvette Kimmy) at the show. It was nice to meet Kimmy and talk to Barb again. Haven't seen Barb since Sharkfest.

We checked out that LT1 cam when we got back to Cliff's and found that a few of the lobes didn't measure up to specs. I guess I am still in the hunt for the perfect cam.

 

[offshore]

THE MANIFOLD IN THIS PIC IS A DUAL PLANE THE PIC BEFORE IS A SINGLE PLANE.

 

[offshore]

Here is the intake that Cliff (DkBG) would like me to use. It does look cool but I fear it's a bit much for a mild engine. It doesn't have exhaust heat for those cold mornings and would require at least a double pumper because of the large plenum. I'd also need serious heads and cam and higher compression. I'll build an engine just for this manifold someday Cliff.

Edelbrock SY1 Smokey Ram designed by Smokey Yunick

SINGLE PLANE OPEN PLENUM

 

[offshore]

UNLESS YOU WANT TO RUIN YOUR NEW PROJECT ENGINE "DO NOT USE ANY USED CAM OR LIFTERS!) DON'T USE A USED CAM & NEW LIFTERS/ DON'T USE A NEWCAM AND OLD LIFTERS THEY WILL ALL FAIL ALMOST INSTANTLY! WITH IN 100 MI. THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN USE A USED CAM IS IF YOU HAVE THE LIFTERS THAT THE CAM WAS RUN WITH FROM THE START AND EACH LIFTER HAS TO GO ON THE SAME LOBE IT CAME OFF! ONE WRONG LOBE TO LIFTER SAY GOODBYE UNLESS YUOR DEALING WITH A VERY SPECIAL GRIND ALWAYS BUY NEW. THERE CHEEP. ps I LOVE YOUR FOUR SINGEL BRL.MANIFOLD I'D REBUILD THE CARBS SYNC.THEM AND HAVE FUN

 

[offshore]

I haven't seen Stromberg 97's in a long time either - here's a pic of 97's on a '57 Caddy that I stuffed in a '51 Ford (set back 10") back in 1960:

Of course, you could always bolt on a set of these (deficit financing definitely required)

LOVE YOUR STYLE!

 

[offshore]

Re: From the "Math is hard" dept.........

] WHATS THE COMPRESSION HEIGHT OF THE PISTONS?

 

[Tom Bryant]

Hi Offshore,

I don't know the exact compression height of those pistons yet. I need to send that email today. I have a feeling it is low from the cr ratio specs they provided. I'm thinking I'll need to go with a 64cc head but I'll make that decision when they are installed and I have actual deck height measurements. I agree on the used cam topic too. I have successfully used a used cam before but not as a rule. I have a '60s grind Wolverine that was used and it has been in my '59 for 25 years or so. I put quite a few road miles on it before I parked the car and it always held lash. I used a good set of solids off of a Duntov and lightly scuffed them with worn 400 grit emery. If the cam is of good material and the spring pressures are not heavy this will usually work as the lifters and cam will get to know each other almost like an original break-in period.. I will feel better about putting in a new cam with a modern grind though.

The Offenhauser 360 degree is often missunderstood as they do things differently than Edelbrock and the rest. It is not a dual plane where you have two layers of runners running over or under the others to equally feed each side of the engine like a stock or Performer intake. It is more like the single plane racing manifolds with a common plenum and all runners run direct to their cylinders without crossing over. As you can see in the picture the ports are in a direct line from the plenum. The runners are curved for length to make it more usable at lower rpms than the straight X type single plane.

The twist in the 360 Degree is that the plenum devider runs the full length of the manifold and completely seperates the right and left banks of the engine except for about a 3/8in hole through the rear of the devider just below a threaded vacuum port. Each side of the intake is a long plenum cavity with the 4 ports for that side exiting straight off of it.

The Smokey Ram is actually a cross Ram design. The plenum floor is several inches wide and flat and only a couple inches below the carb. The sides of the plenum are large open areas with the runners exiting on the valley side and running across the engine to feed the intake ports on the opposite bank. In other words the large box shaped plenum that would be somewhat over the right valve cover has runners that actually feed the left head and visa-versa.


The Stromberg 97 2 bbl carb is the classic hot rod 2bbl. It was used on Ford V8s in the late 30s and was the carb of choice for multiple setups clear into the '60s. Now they are again in high demand for nostalgia builds. Both John's Caddy and my Weiand manifold run 4 Stombedrg 97 2bbls.

Well I'm off to see my wife at the GM store. I'll get some cam prices while I'm there.

Tom

 

[Tom Bryant]

It was so nice out yesterday, almost 70, that I took the opportunity to clean up my engine removal mess and got that block out in the drive for a good cleaning. Then I dryed it with the air gun and oiled all of the machined surfaces. I run the hone down each cylinder to clean it up so I could see what was in there. I have a little light scoring in #6 about halfway down and in about a 1 inch by 1 inch area. This is probably why this engine was using oil before.

I will bring the micrometers home from work again and see if I can hone this defect out. and still be within specs. I may be looking at a clean up overbore. That won't effect my piston cost but it will add to the bottom line. I'll have to call around to some shops in the area to see what the charge for a .030 bore is.

I'll see if I can get a digital of this too.

Tom

 

[Tom Bryant]

I had a talk yeaterday with the machinist at a shop close to here and he is getting some prices together. Looks like the .030 overbore will run $130. He was suggesting a kit price for the short block so I told him what I found for piston prices. I think I am making him sharpen his pencil a little. I may be using cast pistons that he supplies if the price is really good. We'll see what he comes up with.

Tom

 

[Tom Bryant]

I stopped by to see Greg at H&W in Hicksville OH and made him sharpen his pencil a little. He will bore the block .030 for $135. and sell me Silv-o-Lite pistons for $185. This is about ten bucks more than the pistons I had picked out but he will sell me moly rings 5 bucks cheaper plus there will be no shipping charges so it will be about the same as Summit. Also he'll install the rods using a rod heater and cam bearings for $22. That would get my block ready to put the crank in for less than $325. Not bad.

I feel better about buying the pistons from the same guy that does the boring. He uses all Sunnen equipment and I'll be getting the shop tour when I take the block over. I will be out of town in northern MI for a couple days and he is going on vacation for 2 weeks starting Fri so this may be on hold for a while.

I have a feeling that this small bore problem may push the bottom line over the $500. goal. This is not something that would be uncommon if you were doing any older 350 in a C3 for example so this will still be a good example of what to expect when freshening up your old L48 ect.

Tom