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Should I Gelcoat?

Paintdaddy and John Z seem to share my opinion on how to refinish a corvette. I have read alot of there advise on this fourm and respect there input. yAs for myself after 25 years as a painter and body man and have done to many corvettes to remember, maybe i really am a professional. I am sorry if i sound like im being sarcastic, but i feel that this needed to be said. i hope you guys accept my apology. I am only trying to give the people on this forum good sound advise like many of you do.
 
Vette, I'm sorry but I'm lost. What did you say?

Thanks

vette said:
Paintdaddy and John Z seem to share my opinion on how to refinish a corvette. I have read alot of there advise on this fourm and respect there input. yAs for myself after 25 years as a painter and body man and have done to many corvettes to remember, maybe i really am a professional. I am sorry if i sound like im being sarcastic, but i feel that this needed to be said. i hope you guys accept my apology. I am only trying to give the people on this forum good sound advise like many of you do.
 
No need for an apology ,we are all trying to learn.Thats why we are all here.The first person that says he knows all about anything,is lying.My strong points are paint and body and knowing build sequence.Others may be mechanical or interior but kno one knows all.
 
Guys Guys There is no such thing as "gelcoat" Period. Get over it.
 
Blackmoon you have to get over this gelcoat thing, it is not a good way to go. how much proof do you need? Now as for your 5 speed trans, thats the way to go. The overdrive is a get idea.
 
vette

First of all I posted this a while ago and haven't posted since. Secondly no one have proved anything, There is obviously a difference of opinion if you read the 'other' thread. It just seems to be a personal preference but I have found 2 NCRS restorers that insist it's the only way to go and won't guarantee their paint without re-gelling the car. I'm not saying that corvettes were ever gelcoated but only that re-gelcoating during a complete strip, body work and repaint is prefered by SOME. I simply asked for feedback but that does not mean that your method is the only acceptable one. If you have an opinion please leave it as you have but please don't post and criticize others. That is not the purpose of this forum and I'd prefer you kept your criticism off this thread.

Black Moon

vette said:
Blackmoon you have to get over this gelcoat thing, it is not a good way to go. how much proof do you need? Now as for your 5 speed trans, thats the way to go. The overdrive is a get idea.
 
Moon . But its ok for you to criticze me in the other fourm Ok you win your right. I will stay out of your thread.
 
I'm sorry, when did I ever critize you? Most people know more than me so I try never to sound smarter or to criticize.

I'm not asking you to stay out but only to allow others to post their opinion without being critical. If you'll note my posts in this thread, I'm responding to other poeple's comments. I'm not the one keeping this going, they and you are.

I'm not trying to be obstinate just receptive to positive input not criticizm.
 
Black Moon,

Now that everyone has finished bashing Gelcoat as incorrect, I will give you my opinion on it. I have used the Ecklers gelcoat in the past and will use it in the future. I have also used Slick Sand and it's predecessor Feather Fill on cars for many years, and find all of them to be an acceptable base for any type of finish system. That being said, each material has it's advantages and disadvantages.
First you have to understand that both materails are polyester resin and have more in common than most people are aware. The Slick Sand has a lot of inert filler material in it so that it will build up to a high film thickness to allow you to block out even the roughest panels. This material is nothing but Body filler in a sprayable form! Plastic body filler is the exact composition and uses the same filler material. You could accomplish the same effect by skimming the entire body with Bondo and then sanding it smooth. The gelcoat however, is pure polyester resin with a small ammount of a waxy material that forms a skin over it when sprayed to help it level better. This composition does not make gelcoat a good product to level rough panels, but makes it an extremely good product to seal old repairs and to keep old spiderweb cracks from coming to the surface. Now for the downside. Gelcoat is miserable stuff to sand! The wax that forms on top of it will clog sandpaper and even after the wax is completely off, it is hard stuff to sand since it is so dense. This same hard, dense surface is exactly what makes it , in my opinion, a great product to use. Gelcoat does not build to a high film layer like Slick Sand and cannot be used for blocking panels.
There is no doubt in my mind, that gelcoat will form a harder less permeable layer than Slicksand, and if you do not belive so, than just strip the paint off both products! If you use the common Methelyene Chloride stripper on a car that has used Slick Sand, the stripper will attack the material. The only reason for this is that it is attacking the inert material and not the resin. The material is so light and porous, that the stripper can penetrate and attack the filler, just like body filler! Gelcoat does not have this problem since it is nothing but resin and almost impervious to such chemicals.
Gelcoat, in my opinion, does a better job getting down into small spiderweb cracks and consolidating them to better prevent them from showing back through. I also think that it does a better job of preventing swelling of old repairs under lacquer topcoats, since it does a better job of preventing the lacquer thinner from penetrating to the repairs. This obviously, is of little concern if you are using a modern urethane finish, but is important for those of us who still shoot lacquer on judged cars.
In closing, I will tell you that either product will give you good results, especially under urethane, and there is no doubt that Gelcoat is harder to work with. You will probably have to use a surfacer material even if you used gelcoat, while Slick Sand is a single product. A lot of it boils down to whether you are doing the job yourself or paying someone to do it, and what your expectations are. I do all my own work, and it is nothing but time to use Gelcoat, but If I were paying someone to perform the extra work, I might have second thoughts about whether it was woth the additional cost.
Sorry for rambling on so long!
Regards, John McGraw
 
John,
Thanks for the input. I learned about fiberglass and gelcoat from one of the best. The one thing I leaned and continue to practice is the easiest way to sand gelcoat is by wetsanding. We'd go over everything once with a palm sander and a mist bottle, 180/220/400/800/1200/1600/ polish. Of course this was for a finished panel but when using it for a surfacer I'm sure you'd stop after the 180 or 220. If you haven't used water give it a try sometime. I've sanded alot of 'Slick Sand' and alot of gelcoat and I would rather do the later anytime. Just MY opinion.
 
John Mcgraw said:
Black Moon,

=>The gelcoat however, is pure polyester resin with a small ammount of a waxy material that forms a skin <=
over it when sprayed to help it level better. This composition does not make gelcoat a good product to level rough panels, but makes it an extremely good product to seal old repairs and to keep old spiderweb cracks from coming to the surface. Now for the downside. Gelcoat is miserable stuff to sand! The
=>wax<=
that forms on top of it will clog sandpaper and even after the wax is completely off, it is hard stuff to sand since it is so dense.

Sorry for rambling on so long!
Regards, John McGraw
I have a 66 painted with amberflint in 89-90 on top of gelcoat and its pealing off just like the paint was applied to a wax surface. This is the first time someone has posted a chemical associated with the paint process that could help explain the wide range of results being experienced by good painters. If you used a gelcoat and failed to provide a bite to the underlying polester by sanding or chemical washing this 'wax' off then one would expect to see bubbling as it pooled due to heat where it was thicker or loss of adheison over time where it was thin but had not been sanded off or at least roughened through to provide a bite in the polester rosen. I have never been satisfied with the soaked fiberglass theory. I agree it could explain some problems with areas that had been not been cleaned but has anyone who heated/left it in the sun ever seen bubbles of oil form on the surface during this process? Most of the bubbles have a chemical in them and would not an oil based liquid tend to follow gravity and come out on the underside of the panel rather than the top?

John your ramblings are well worth the read and since I am just about to start a 61 paint job I know what I am going to look out for as I get it ready for paint. Thanks.

Tyler
 
paintdaddy said:
I dont think there are any cons to it .I think its just overkill,but thats just my opinion.I dont see anything wrong with it as an extra insurance to seal down repairs.In my opinion I dont think it would seal down the repairs anymore that a polyester primer surfacer would.
When I had my '57 painted, it had a lot of bodywork. The painter sprayed two coats of gelcoat, block sanded and then 4 coats of polyester primer surfacer and block sanded again. I think it's the gelcoat that keeps the nasty solvents, which may still be in the fiberglass, from bleeding through the new paint job. I'm going to do the same on the '67, cheap insurance. :D
 
Very informative stuff here. I would have also thought gel-coat to be avoided because it's so dang hard to sand. But I can see the uses now.

Thanks for posting John! I've definitely learned something! :beer
- Mike Greene
 
John Mcgraw and other gelcoat pro's

Black Moon,

Now that everyone has finished bashing Gelcoat as incorrect, I will give you my opinion on it. I have used the Ecklers gelcoat in the past and will use it in the future. I have also used Slick Sand and it's predecessor Feather Fill on cars for many years, and find all of them to be an acceptable base for any type of finish system. That being said, each material has it's advantages and disadvantages.
First you have to understand that both materails are polyester resin and have more in common than most people are aware. The Slick Sand has a lot of inert filler material in it so that it will build up to a high film thickness to allow you to block out even the roughest panels. This material is nothing but Body filler in a sprayable form! Plastic body filler is the exact composition and uses the same filler material. You could accomplish the same effect by skimming the entire body with Bondo and then sanding it smooth. The gelcoat however, is pure polyester resin with a small ammount of a waxy material that forms a skin over it when sprayed to help it level better. This composition does not make gelcoat a good product to level rough panels, but makes it an extremely good product to seal old repairs and to keep old spiderweb cracks from coming to the surface. Now for the downside. Gelcoat is miserable stuff to sand! The wax that forms on top of it will clog sandpaper and even after the wax is completely off, it is hard stuff to sand since it is so dense. This same hard, dense surface is exactly what makes it , in my opinion, a great product to use. Gelcoat does not build to a high film layer like Slick Sand and cannot be used for blocking panels.
There is no doubt in my mind, that gelcoat will form a harder less permeable layer than Slicksand, and if you do not belive so, than just strip the paint off both products! If you use the common Methelyene Chloride stripper on a car that has used Slick Sand, the stripper will attack the material. The only reason for this is that it is attacking the inert material and not the resin. The material is so light and porous, that the stripper can penetrate and attack the filler, just like body filler! Gelcoat does not have this problem since it is nothing but resin and almost impervious to such chemicals.
Gelcoat, in my opinion, does a better job getting down into small spiderweb cracks and consolidating them to better prevent them from showing back through. I also think that it does a better job of preventing swelling of old repairs under lacquer topcoats, since it does a better job of preventing the lacquer thinner from penetrating to the repairs. This obviously, is of little concern if you are using a modern urethane finish, but is important for those of us who still shoot lacquer on judged cars.
In closing, I will tell you that either product will give you good results, especially under urethane, and there is no doubt that Gelcoat is harder to work with. You will probably have to use a surfacer material even if you used gelcoat, while Slick Sand is a single product. A lot of it boils down to whether you are doing the job yourself or paying someone to do it, and what your expectations are. I do all my own work, and it is nothing but time to use Gelcoat, but If I were paying someone to perform the extra work, I might have second thoughts about whether it was woth the additional cost.
Sorry for rambling on so long!
Regards, John McGraw

Hi, Im new here and found this post above that answers just about all my gelcoat questions but still have one.
I sprayed on some Ecklers black gelcoat, I know I didnt mix it right because I had to wait about 3 weeks for it to dry.
I started wet sanding and it cloged my paper instantly, I knew something was wrong so I took a rag with acetone and wiped it right off, it came off very easy.
I thought that acetone should not touch cured gelcoat? The gelcoat was dry to the touch.
The instuctions that came with the gelcoat says to mix 6 to 8 cc with a quart but my hardner tubes are not marked. Please help
 
This thread has been around for a long time.

Update. I bought a 55 and had Mike Colletta do the paint, if you go to Oldtown on Sat nite you can see his work on some C-1s he has done.
When this post was originated he used gelcoat but he has reciently switched and here my notes on what he used for my White 55.

used a PPG product Epoxie Global Systems #822, with 823 as the hardner. Once the car is in bare glass use a DA with 80 to get a good bite surface. Spray 2/3 coats of epoxie then block with 180-220, use bondo to flatten low spots 2 more coats epoxie and block with 220.

Once the surface has been scratch paded with water and clorox do not use laquer thinner on any surface to be painted as it can leave a residue use DX 320.
When using the 822 as a surfacer mix 3:1 , filler 3:1, primer 3:1:1/2

Since I asked him to do it in laquer he managed to get both white and red.
White PPG ddl 829
Red PPG ddl 71416D

If you are doing laquer use old guns that were used back in the day. Modern guns are not designed to work well with laquer. Also recognize that modern laquors are not exactly the same as the old version, it has less body so it takes more patience to get it right.

Tyler
 

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