wierd ignition problem..help please

[srs244]

on my 78 pace car...i have this unusual problem and wonder if someone could help me out (or has experienced the same at one point and can provide an answer).

my car is a weekend cruiser. as such, it doesn't start with the first turn of the key usually. when i turn the key, the engine cranks and assuming that it doesn't catch, i release the starter and retry. after the second try (and sometimes after the first try), the car appears "dead". there is no starter response...not solenoid "clicking", absolutely nothing in the way of starter response. i know that there is battery power as the dash powers up and after switching the key on and off, jiggeling the ignition lock, pulling and reinserting the key, and just about everything else i can think of to try except hitting it with a hammer (trust me the thought has occurred to me more than once, lol) if often (but not always) will activate the starter and i can get the car started. it also seems that as long as i try to restart the car again (after driving it a bit) within a reasonable time frame (like early the next morning after putting the car up around 9pm the night before), the starter activates on the first turn of the key. however if the car doesn't start and i release the starter position on the ignition switch, very often, i get the "dead" response on the next turn of the key once again. i thought of the neutral safety switch, but the starter can eventually be activated without ever fooling with the shift lever (the car is an L-48 automatic), and i have tried shifting to neutral from park and moving the shifter a bit while trying to crank the car to see if there was a bad neutral contact, but that doesn't seem to be the problem as i can often (but not always) get the switch to engage the starter eventually by fooling with it as previously described without ever changing the shifter or playing with the neutral switch.

before i start buying replacement parts, i would love to figure out what exactly to buy (i've already got a great stockpile of extra parts, lol). is it the ignition switch that is going bad (or has gone most of the way there already)?? if not, what else could it be. what should i look for or check out??

thanks for the help.

steve

 

[JohnZ]

When you turn it to "start" and nothing happens, check for power on the purple wire that goes to the starter solenoid inboard "S" terminal (that circuit energizes the starter); if no power, it's between there and the ignition switch. The neutral safety switch is inbetween the two, so check for power on both sides of that switch as well. If you don't see power where that wire exits the ignition switch, either the switch is bad or the rod that actuates it from the key cylinder has worn out of adjustment.

 

[srs244]

thanks john. i appreciate the direction.
steve

 

[RodsnRides]

JohnZ nails it again! Good on you! I am always impressed by your knowledge.

I might also suggest to check the voltage at the "S" switch, and along the rest of the system, for that matter. You may be getting a voltage drop from either one of the switches or a resistant wire itself. That little guy is exposed to a lot of heat...

I'm gonna guess and say it's the ignition switch itself, at the base of the column. The linkage rod adjustment is a very good point.

Rick

 

[srs244]

at the risk of sounding a lot dumber than i really am, exactly where is the "s" switch that you are referring to?? i assume that john is referring to the lead from the bottom of the column to the starter solenoid (purple wire), but i am not familiar with the "s" switch unless you are referring to the solenoid itself. as for the neutral safety switch, i have the center console off the car, so that should be an easy thing to check out, however since i get both starter power then none without repositioning the shifter, i would think (perhaps very incorrectly) that the neutral switch is ok since it's contact position hasn't changed, but the key response has gone from starter activation to none.

while i haven't looked at my assembly manual yet, so this may be a dumb response also.....but is the rod you refer to part of the ignition switch assembly or is it a completely separate part that can be adjusted (or replaced if necessary)????

thanks again for the help.

steve

 

[RodsnRides]

The "S" switch I was referring to is the "Start" terminal on the solenoid, where the purple wire attaches. If you view the solenoid terminals, it is marked with a letter S.

The rod is a 1/8" or so sized wire rod that travels the length of the steering column from the column key switch to the ignition switch below. As you "roll" the key to the Start position, the rod activates the switch.

As for your nuetral safety switch (NSS), if you sometimes have power to it and sometimes not, no matter what the shift lever position is, then I would check either the switch at the bottom of the column, or there is a short/ground of the wire between that and the NSS.

I hope this is helpful...

Rick

 

[srs244]

rodsnrides
thanks for the clarification. i always thought that the rod that runs through the column had more to do with the steering wheel lock. i appreciate all the help and the followup to my secondary questions.

steve

 

[goertz]

You have a bad starter solonoid. next time it does this, take a wrench, pipe, hammer, whatever, and tap lightly on the solonoid while someone trys to start it. I guarantee the second you tap it, it turns over. Over time, the contacts inside the solonoid get dirty/corroded. But while you're in there, just replace the starter. A reman from Pepboys is about $10 more than just the solonoid by itself, and it comes with a new solonoid. I've had this exact problem on many, many GM cars.

 

[srs244]

goertz

that was my original thought, but i figured since it wasn't a constant, that it had to probably be something else causing the erratic behavior. there is no "clicking" when it fails to turn the starter over, it is totally "dead" to the starter. as i mentioned there is definitely power from the switch in the "on" position as the gauges and the warning light (alternator light etc) all turn on and i know the battery is good as when it decides to catch, the starter engages and turns the engine over normally. shouldn't the solenoid just fail as opposed to function normally sometimes??

i guess after i check the current flow, i'll get someone to give me a hand and i'll try the hammer on the solenoid "trick". thanks for the suggestion.

 

[goertz]

No, they don't do it all the time. I have a '67 Pontiac Catalina that just did the exact same thing 2 weeks ago. If I drove it daily, no problem. If it sat overnight, and part of the following day, nothing at all. Good batt, bright lights, turn the key, and nothing happens at all. Lights stay bright, no clicking, etc. A very slight tap on the solonoid got it fired up every time. If you drove it all the time, never a problem. But after a day and a half, no dice. I replaced the solonoid, problem gone. She can sit for a week, and it's just fine. I've had this happen a million times on a million GM cars.

 

[srs244]

i guess i could understand it if it behaved as yours did, however what mine does is works perfectly when i first try to start it. let off the key and try again (since it takes a bit to start after sitting a few days) and it will work again about 50% of the time. if i have to try a third time (or as mentioned sometimes a second time) i get the "dead" results. sometimes playing around with the ignition switch (put the key in, take it out, jiggle the lock mechanism, etc) will get it to work again to activate the starter. i will definitely try the hammer trick as it also seems logical to me that would be the cause of the problem (but as i said, i would have thought when it failed, it failed until hit with a hammer, lol.

btw it happens the next morning after i have driven it the evening before, too.

 

[Mr. Chuck]

The solinoid has a round contactor (looks like a large copper washer) that carries the current to the motor., over time it developes a burnt spot that doesn't deliver enough current for the starter to run. The intermittent problem is caused by the solinoid design that makes the washer rotate, idea is to delay the development of the burnt spot. Tapping with a hammer causes the washer to turn slightly to a non-burnt spot on the washer. Had a 59 Chevy, 348 cu, that I would remove starter and clean the washer periodically to temp fix the problem (old Navy days when I didn't have money to replace the worn part).

 

[Gary42]

I have a '67 Pontiac Catalina that just did the exact same thing 2 weeks ago. If I drove it daily, no problem. If it sat overnight, and part of the following day, nothing at all. Good batt, bright lights, turn the key, and nothing happens at all. Lights stay bright, no clicking, etc. A very slight tap on the solonoid got it fired up every time.

Wow, I'm glad I came across this thread! This is the only significant problem I've ever had with my '72. I had starter problems about two years ago when the starter would not disengage when I let go of the key. I heard a sickening whine while the engine reached normal RPM with the starter gears still engaged! I fried one starter that way. I put a rebuilt in and was fine for a while, but now I have this same mysterious "dead for no reason" problem you describe. If I re-try the ignition three or four more times, she turns right over, full cranking.

In my case it almost always turns over after sitting for hours or days, but if the engine doesn't catch immediately and I have to try again, that's when the car appears "dead". Makes me reluctant to drive far from home on those nice sunny days if I have to turn the car off. Guess it's time for another starter.

 

[srs244]

just a follow up::

power through the ignition switch to the neutral lockout (auto trans) and back out through the neutral lockout switch (yellow to purple into the switch shows 11.53 volts when the key is turned to the starter position. purple stripped wire out of switch shows the same 11.53 volts out). both lines show 0 voltage when the key is released out of the starter on position. i am assuming at this point that the solenoid is the culprit and will replace it shortly unless anyone can make a case to look at something else.

steve