Question: Near impossible spindle nut removal

[WhalePirot]

I found an uncomfortable amount of play in the left rear axle, seems to be and reasonable with 110K, the spindle bearings. I have now broken one breaker bar (good term, huh?), bent two pry bars, one titanium, the other steel, used as 'stop turn' levers while applying maximum break-loose torque on the spindle nut. I tried penetrating oil, left to soak in overnight, and a torch to heat (removed the minor rust) it.

I had not removed the half shafts nor the Torx bolts. I don't see how that matters for this nut.

No luck! My German car mechanic buddy says that FWD Audis can take 400-500 ft.lbs. to break loose.

My next thought is to drill holes in a long piece of 2"x 1/4" steel to lock with the lug nuts. Outside of that, I'd have to cut the bolt.

Ideas out there? TIA.

I will be replacing them both with American made, though more expensive than the Chinese crap units.

 

[boomdriver]

well, stiff nuts can be a problem....
but, this has to be done with half-shafts in place and connected since the nut is just an extention of the shafts thru the knuckle bearings. Thats why the book says pull wheel, remove center cap, remount wheel, lower to ground then break the nut loose. To get max force the wheels have to be firmly on the ground.
Be wary of too much heat because of the aluminum and its habit of warping. If you can get your hands on some CO2 (extreme cold) to lightly spray it down, that might do the trick. Heat makes things expand and often tighten. Cold contracts or shrinks solids and might loosen the bond.

What happens especially in high-stress applications like a car with alot more power than the original design is that splines distort, bearing surfaces form a ridge like a lip that a joined part cannot slip past, and threaded parts have the threads distort and form whats almost like a cold weld. Metals twist together making huge amounts of torque required to break that bond. The shaft often is weaker than the threaded bond.

I'd try cold next. If nobody is listening or watching, a cheap fast way would be a can of 134a that was on a cheap do it yourself recharge hose.......I am NOT endorsing the release of a freon type gas into the atmosphere.:~)
Replacing the spindle shaft should be considered. With this much stress applied to it, it may be flawed now.

 

[navy2kcoupe]

Know someone with an impact wrench??????
That might do the trick.
Andy

 

[surfer93]

Impact wrench would do it, also I disagree w/boom on freezing the nut.
If you use a blowtorch or acetalene torch heat up the nut and try not to touch the spindle, theory being the nut expands from the cooler spindle.

 

[boomdriver]

Right,
I thought about it later and knew that I should have been specific about possibly cooling the shaft, not the nut. The nut is easier to heat up. It does not have to be red hot to break loose, just hot enough that it can;t be handled. I tend to be overly cautious with aluminum and alloy parts and heat. I've suffered greatly from learning the hard way !

I remembered how cyl sleeves are pressed in on performance bike engines, by freezing the liner and cooking the cylinder set, then press in place. That method gave about 2 seconds of looseness then the liner locked in place. Point being that the "outside" part will expand and try to seperate from the inner part if heat is applied to the part with the hole.

 

[vetteoz]

Took weight of car on ground and 6ft of waterpipe on breaker bar to get them off my '87
Spare set of uprights I bought , took to local garage .Air gun cracked nuts loose just by stopping the hub rotating while they were sitting on the floor

 

[vetteoz]

I will be replacing them both with American made, though more expensive than the Chinese crap units.

Genuine OEM AC Delcos
$130
Corvette Recycling - High Quallity Used Corvette Parts C4-C6

 

[WhalePirot]

What happens especially in high-stress applications like a car with alot more power than the original design is that splines distort, bearing surfaces form a ridge like a lip that a joined part cannot slip past, and threaded parts have the threads distort and form whats almost like a cold weld. Metals twist together making huge amounts of torque required to break that bond. The shaft often is weaker than the threaded bond............. Replacing the spindle shaft should be considered. With this much stress applied to it, it may be flawed now.

Excellent info.. thanks.

Will inspection show the flaws? Maybe need a magnaflux?


Thanks, everyone!.. I have not seen an impact that could put more torque on it than my hefting through a floor jack handle over the 3/4" breaker bar. I know mine doesn't, but a semi-truck (lorry, for you others) type might.

I was amazed when, after thinking that the nut was working loose (it was not) I saw first the titanium, then the steel wrecking bars bent like pretzels. Actually, I felt like Superman.

I tried to heat just the nut; no workie.

I misread my manual, I guess, not trying both wheels on the ground. I know I moved the car a few times.

I had Corvette Recycling on the phone, thanks.

 

[WhalePirot]

HD spindles?

Now I am wondering if I need heavy duty spindles. Heck, the car outputs less than 600 ft.lb. of torque!

Where to get those, if so?

 

[boomdriver]

as far as seeing the damage (if any) it should be pretty obvious. Clean up the part and look closely at the splines to see if they are straight and the threads to see if the edges have been re-shaped. They will have shiney edges on the sloped part of the thread if its been forced.

If there is any doubt, just replace the spindle. A new nut would probably be good as well.
The parts are available and not that expensive. Its costly to magna-flux and do test like that, so when test & replacement cost are near the same, its always better to replace. If the load bearing surfaces were damaged you'd not be able to get it apart. Once a shaft distorts that much to form a raised ring in the metal, its over. Torch time. If the shaft were to be stuck in the bearing assembly then that would be a concern.
Air-impacts work not because of the torque but the number of hits per second. They may have a limit or 250ft lbs but thats applied like a sledge hammer 3 or 4 times a second, its like beating a stake into the ground, except twisting. A 1" tire impact WILL break most things....either loose or just broken.

I'm sure someone makes a super-duty spindle for hi-hp c-4 applications. Problem is that when one piece of the drive train is made stronger, that transfers the stress to other parts like short shafts, u-joints, hub bolts etc.. Right now as it sits, if the u-joints held up so far, then this is probably more of a fluke than a problem that you will see in the future. Hi-power does do things to parts but there are so many other parts in this drive-train that would fail if it were terribly over-powered. I do know that many cleaners and detergents are caustic and will cause things to corrode together. I use acid wheel wash on all of my aluminum underneath, and have to suffer the consequences of iron nuts/bolts rusting in place. For me, its worth it to have a brand new looking underside on a car with 1/4 mil miles.People notice. I was told by someone from GM engineering back in the late 80's that the C-4 frame and drive train should handle up to 600HP. Anymore than that and it would need some help.

 

[John Robinson]

Spindle bearing removal

I am currently in the process of fixing a left rear vibration problem. In my case it was the U joints on the half shaft. It was easy to diagnoze by putting car on jack stands and then using a break over bar to try to loosen or thighten the lug nuts. The wheel rotated forwords and backwords by doing this I new it was not the bearing. To check the bearing crab the tire and see if it will move right to left or up and down.

In looking at my hub with the half shaft out I see it is held on by what the fsm call wheel hub bolts. If you remove these bolts you have the whole bearing assy. in your hand and all you do then is put in a new wheel hub with the bearing already in it.

Now a word of caution. When you remove the spring bolt you will have to have good control of the spring.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4004/4412015530_5b9a049a19.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2776/4411248109_85681ef53e.jpg

I made this spring restraint to keep the spring from snapping down and also to hold it in place for the reassembly.

Basically all that you need to do is remove the u joint clips on both ends of the half shaft (With a long extension you can get to the inner clips by rotateing them to the top)and then remove the half shaft. With it out of the way you can get to the hub bolts from the back side and remove the hub bearing carrier. And again now is a good time to check the u joints and replace if neccessary.

 

[vetteoz]

I'm sure someone makes a super-duty spindle for hi-hp c-4 applications.

Summer Bros make custom C4 spindles but requires custom splined hub

If your spindle looks like these ;replace

 

[chevyaddict]

How did you finally get them off?

Whalepirot, I'm having the EXACT same problem although I haven't put both tires on the ground. I had TWO similar breaker bars (both 6 feet long) with a pry bar wedged between the wheel studs (with lug nuts on, of course) and STILL can't break it lose. Same deal - penetrating oil for three days now and torch heat. No budge. If you can share how you did it finally I'd appreciate it!

 

[vigman]

Dawn

In the before time....On my 84
It's really tricky to do it via the breaker bar & pipe method
I did a 1" breaker bar & socket, chocked the wheels and a 4 foot cheater pipe....
That STILL didn't get it... 2 days of oil.. and it budged after STANDING on the end of the cheater and bouncing...
( and I'm 280 ) .....

It did get away from me when it broke loose but I had taped MANY RAGS on the pipe, bar and surrounding areas...

These days.. I have a 5 HP 22 gal, stand up air compressor and an Air Cat Impact good for 600 ftlbs or reverse torque..
And that ALMOST didn't get the nut of my 88.....

Mike

 

[Hib Halverson]

Whalepirot, I'm having the EXACT same problem although I haven't put both tires on the ground. I had TWO similar breaker bars (both 6 feet long) with a pry bar wedged between the wheel studs (with lug nuts on, of course) and STILL can't break it lose. Same deal - penetrating oil for three days now and torch heat. No budge. If you can share how you did it finally I'd appreciate it!

Put the car on the ground. Set the parking brake or chock the tire.

Spray Aerokroil or Silikroil penetrant on the nuts and let it sit overnight.

Rent a 3/4-drive air impact gun, the appropriate impact socket and a compressor with enough air flow to run that gun at max. torque.

If that doesn't break the nut, you're in deep doo-doo.

 

[vigman]

Agree with Hib EXCEPT

If you do not have a MUY MACHO air compressor the best AIR impact gun will not strip a 8 mm nut....
It's 36mm socket for the axle spindle nut
55 Torx for the hub bolts



C4 - Rear Hub Replacement - Corvette Forum : DigitalCorvettes.com Corvette Forums

 

[vigman]

Ft Lbs

[h=2]Milwaukee 9075-20 3/4" impact electric will only do 380ft lbs with a 7 amp motor![/h]
Air cat AIT-1000-TH 1/2 " Work torque range of 200-800 ft.-lbs. ( 150 + S&H )

Schulz Air Compressor 7 5HP Single Phase 80 Gallon Tank 30CFM 175 PSI | eBay
$2000.00 free shipping

OR

Maybe a mobil mechanic who has a truck mounted comperssor and a big impact could make a house call for a minimum charge??

 

[chevyaddict]

Well, thankfully I don't have to do that nasty job yet. Just got finished taking the half shaft out and lo and behold - it was a bad u-joint. PHEW! Although when I do have to do this nasty job I'll know what I'll need to get/rent and be prepared for it when that time comes. Thanks all for your replies!