Bowtie Overdrive 2004R

[Art Jett]

Glensages, The crossmember I bought from an 82 with a 700R-4 bolts right into my 77. I didn't have to modify the mounting holes at all. I don't have the motor or transmission in the car yet to see if the transmission actually mates up with the crossmember at the mounting point yet. I was assured by the people at Contemporary Corvettes, a corvette wrecking yard in PA that everything should bolt right up. I hope they're right. At least they told me that if it doesn't fit for some unknown reason they would refund the purchase price as long as I haven't modified it.
Evolution1980, I think I misread the instructions about the pan. I just need it off to make sure the shifter is adjusted so the transmission shift detents are in the right position as compared to the position of the shifter in the car. The TV cable adjustmtnes can be made at the throttle linkage it looks like. Thanks for your knowledge. I'm sure I can handle the installation ok, I am a mechanic on million dollar pieces of oilfield equipment so this shouldn't baffle me too much.

 

[Evolution1980]

is a cross-member for a THM350 in a 1977-chassis, as Art says he has, compatible with a THM400 in an '82-chassis (i.e. - a straight-across swap ), or will the cross-member need to be modifed to fit the chassis ?

I don't know for sure. I would think that if the TH350 and 400 used the same mounting locations, then the answer would be "no". I'm sure someone else can chime in with an assured answer.

Art, as with the conversion from a THM to an R4 trans or vice-versa, the mounts should be same on the frame. However, the tongue (or whatever it's called that actually bolts to the trans) would be of different length due to a difference in tailshaft length. I have pictures to backup my thinking since I got experience with 'em during the installation of my 700R4...

To both of ya...I'm not parts expert, so I could be 100% wrong in my assertions. I'm just going on "educated guess". I guess I could just shut the hell up and not bother posting "I think" responses.... :L :L

 

[Art Jett]

Evo,
You're exactly right! The mounting points on the frame are the same. The one I bought for the 700 has a much shorter mount plate for the transmission. It is about 2 1/2"to 3" farther back toward the back of the car. As far as not posting any more "I think" responses, you have probably forgotten more than I know about these cars so don't ever feel that way.

 

[Glensgages]

I have spent next-to "ZERO" time under my car (it only had 11,000+ miles when I bought it in '06 ), so I am not familiar with the transmission mounts, but I'd think if the 700-R4 is a different length than the THM400, either:


* the cross-member mounts to the same place in the chassis, and it had a different 'tongue' or 'off-set', to compensate for varying lengths.....


OR


* the 'tongue' or 'off-set' itself is the same on the cross-member, and the cross-member itself bolts to the chassis in a different location, front-to-rear.


A buddy has built a few bracket-cars from '82 Corvettes in the past, using either THM350 or 400 transmissions, and putting A/ODs in earlier C3s, so I guess his help will be ncessary.....

 

[Art Jett]

[


* Quote:the cross-member mounts to the same place in the chassis, and it had a different 'tongue' or 'off-set', to compensate for varying lengths.....





You are correct. The crossmember mounts in the same place and the mounting plate"tongue" is shaped differently to accomodate the different transmission.

 

[Red69]

That's me, that's me! (...unfortunately...)

Ok...you have this old grasshopper at a disadvantage. What is the fault with the custom trans crossmember? Thanks for all the great information!

 

[Evolution1980]

Ok...you have this old grasshopper at a disadvantage. What is the fault with the custom trans crossmember? Thanks for all the great information!

Nothing is really "wrong" with the custom crossmember, it's just that it took them 3 tries to get me the correct one, and each time I had to pay the overnight shipping AND I could never reach them or get them to commit to taking the wrong ones back or admitting fault! (And...I could go on...)
Here's some lovely pics of their first two attempts...

Yep...this is close to mounting to the transmission... :eyerole

 

[Glensgages]

Here's some lovely pics...

Yep...this is close to mounting to the transmission... :eyerole

..... now THAT'S a fine piece of 'craftsmanship', eh?

 

[Red69]

Evo, that doesn't look encouraging for my future order! I hope they have their fitment issue resolved. Not taking responsibility for their mistake and picking up the shipping doesn't speak well for them. After what Art said about the 20 page text full of disclaimers and this; I am a little nervous about placing an order.

 

[bossvette]

I don't know if I've posted this before, but 700R4's and 200R4s are plentiful in the boneyards and will handle anything a stock or mildly modded Vette can deliver. If you are putting out some serious HP there are quite a few suppliers of those trans' buy a copy of Hot Rod, Street Rodder or even Off Road and check out the adds.

Poor customer service usually comes when a company gets a little big for its britches and forgets its their buyers that make it. Those crossmembes look like the ones in a street rod catalog with different ends (frame end) welded on. A local sheet metal or welding shop could probably do a better job for less $$$$

 

[Glensgages]

Those crossmembers look like the ones in a street rod catalog with different ends (frame end) welded on. A local sheet metal or welding shop could probably do a better job for less $$$$

I was thinking that same thing:
I may have a solid-axle rear-end stuffed into my '82, and if-so, I'll see if the chassis-guy if he can fabricate a cross-member in his shop.

 

[Evolution1980]

Supposedly, BTO makes all their own crossmembers in-house, their words. That being the case, I don't see how they could send me two completely incorrect pieces. The first one had the tongue size correct, but the frame bolt holes were off. The second one, as evidences by the last picture I posted, wasn't even for the correct car, and those frame bolt holes were off a bit on that one as well. The 3rd and final crossmember was at least close enough that we only had to enlarge the bolt holes just a little bit. And the custom fit/bent trans lines? You've got to be kidding me!

It's like others have said before...sometimes their stuff is spot on. Other times...well....
I just wish I coulda been in CA and just dropped my car off to them so they coulda done it themselves. As for waiting for incorrect parts and paying for the shipping and everything, I haven't even bothered to mention at this point that I was in "rented space". Having a car sit in someone's garage while you wait for incorrect parts is not a pleasent position to be put in, especially if you are paying for that space by the day! The cost keeps going up and up!

 

[Glensgages]

And the custom fit/bent trans lines? You've got to be kidding me!

"..... one-size-fits-NONE" ?????

 

[Evolution1980]

"..... one-size-fits-NONE" ?????

Man, it's been 2 years...are you guys intentionally trying to get me all riled up again?!?! :L

BTW...I was thinking again about my previous post when you asked about cross-compatibility of the crossmembers. I think i want to revise what I said.
1) Just because the crossmember they sent me (#2) had 1979 written on it doesn't mean that it was for a 1979 vette. It coulda been for any other car getting a retro-fit.

2) Didn't the C3's all share the same frame? (Didn't the frame actually date back to '62 or something?) Anyways, if all the C3's used the same frame, wouldn't the mounting points of certain things stayed the same? Such as engine mount points? Or are those not considered part of the frame? If they are part of the frame thus causing the engine to always be in the same place, that would mean that the transmission was always in the same place as well. Therefore, using that logic, the mount points for any C3 with a TH transmission would have been the same and the crossmember mount points would have been the same, save for the shape of the individual crossmembers to allow for diferent exhaust routing through the years.

Again, I don't know 'for sure'. I'm just thinking outloud...

 

[Glensgages]

if all the C3's used the same frame, wouldn't the mounting points of certain things stayed the same?

Again, I don't know 'for sure'. I'm just thinking outloud...

You would 'think-so', but.......
:confused

 

[Art Jett]

I don't know if I've posted this before, but 700R4's and 200R4s are plentiful in the boneyards and will handle anything a stock or mildly modded Vette can deliver. If you are putting out some serious HP there are quite a few suppliers of those trans' buy a copy of Hot Rod, Street Rodder or even Off Road and check out the adds.

Poor customer service usually comes when a company gets a little big for its britches and forgets its their buyers that make it. Those crossmembes look like the ones in a street rod catalog with different ends (frame end) welded on. A local sheet metal or welding shop could probably do a better job for less $$$$

There is another company that looks good on the web. Look at www.eatmyshift.com. They are right up there with BTO's prices but they offer free shipping. I've spoken with them on the phone and they seemed ok.

 

[Heavy Duty]

Sorry for digging this old tread up. At least I did a search before asking my questions.

I will soon be ready to do a few minor up grades to the Pace Car. I've already purchased the engine. I picking up a 384 CID built by Tommy Johnson Sr. (420 HP and 457 TQ) next week. My next quest is the tranny.

After reading ALL of this tread it seems that I may need to go with the 2004R tranny instead of the 700R4. The reason I'm thinking that is because I want to keep the stock 3.08 gearing and the fact that I'm trying to avoid all of the modding that needs to be done with the 700R4. Would I be correct with my line of thinking?

How difficult is the install and set up with this tranny?

What would be a good stall number for the torque converter?

What flex plate will I need?

Who should I buy from Bowtie, TCI, B&M?
I do like the TCI Street Fighter trannies, but I want some one who is going to be customer friendly and not blow me off. From what I've read here it looks like BTO forgets you once they have your money;squint:.

Also someone mentioned leaving the pan off and marking the dipstick full mark. How do you know were the full mark is without the required amount of fluid in the tranny?

I don't plan on racing the car but I would like to have something that would do a decent job of spanking those pesky ricers yet will drop the RPM for normal driving.

I'm ready to do the deal, just need some info and maybe a little help.

Thanks guys.


HD

 

[lightingrod]

BTO has given me good service thus far! I have not had a problem but others I know that have, had no complaints with their service. I currently have their 700R-4 rated at 630hp/630tq but have yet to put it to the test! The plan at the time I bought it was to put it behind a 600hp, 496 BBC in my C-3. My plans have changed and it's now going behind GMPP 572/620 in my Cobra Kit Car. A friend is putting a Trans-Star (I think that's the name) 200R-4 in his C-2 with a GMPP 572/620, it was not cheap at over $3,000.00!

There is very little mod's needed for the 700R-4. It's been awhile since I was into this (4-5 years ago) but I think only a few holes in the frame rail is all that's needed! Keep the stock stuff, trans, drive shaft, mounts, ect and you could go back at any time!

As to converter and gears, that really depends on your engine's power curve! Get with your engine buildr and/or cam grinder. Even with a converter and the low 1st gear of a 700R-4 your 3.08's are going to hurt you stop light to stop light! I would pick a rear gear that would give me the cruise rpm I wanted at say 75 mph and then live with the stop light performance, 3.55, 373's? BTO have charts on their web site that will give you a good idea.

Hope this helps?

Al

 

[Heavy Duty]

BTO has given me good service thus far! I have not had a problem but others I know that have, had no complaints with their service. I currently have their 700R-4 rated at 630hp/630tq but have yet to put it to the test! The plan at the time I bought it was to put it behind a 600hp, 496 BBC in my C-3. My plans have changed and it's now going behind GMPP 572/620 in my Cobra Kit Car. A friend is putting a Trans-Star (I think that's the name) 200R-4 in his C-2 with a GMPP 572/620, it was not cheap at over $3,000.00!

There is very little mod's needed for the 700R-4. It's been awhile since I was into this (4-5 years ago) but I think only a few holes in the frame rail is all that's needed! Keep the stock stuff, trans, drive shaft, mounts, ect and you could go back at any time!

As to converter and gears, that really depends on your engine's power curve! Get with your engine buildr and/or cam grinder. Even with a converter and the low 1st gear of a 700R-4 your 3.08's are going to hurt you stop light to stop light! I would pick a rear gear that would give me the cruise rpm I wanted at say 75 mph and then live with the stop light performance, 3.55, 373's? BTO have charts on their web site that will give you a good idea.

Hope this helps?

Al

Thanks Lightingrod. The engine has the Edlebrock RPM performer RPM setup with a 600CFM carb. My plan is to change out the carb to a 750 CFM and get about another 20 horses out of it.

You are right in that the 3.08/700-R4 is not an ideal setup for stoplight to stoplight performance. I hope to be doing more cruising than the stoplight to stoplight.

I see that BTO makes cross members that will bolt up to the current setup. I would most likely do that deal.

I may have to look at doing a 3.55 or the 3.73 gears. I was going to try and avoid that part of the mod. We will see.

Oh yea...got to hang on to the original engine and tranny so I don't devalue the car by not having the original stuff for it. That is another reason why I was looking at the 2004R since it should bolt right up and no drive shaft changes.

I've always wanted to build one of the Cobra kit cars. Let me know how it goes. Sounds like it would make a great winter project.

Thank again.


HD

 

[Evolution1980]

I've already purchased the engine. (420 HP and 457 TQ)
After reading ALL of this tread it seems that I may need to go with the 2004R tranny instead of the 700R4. The reason I'm thinking that is because I want to keep the stock 3.08 gearing and the fact that I'm trying to avoid all of the modding that needs to be done with the 700R4. Would I be correct with my line of thinking?

My 2 cents for ya...
First, the 700R4 gearing will give you the equivalent first gear of a 3.73 rear end. With as much torque as you are going to have, you'll have nothing but smoke through first gear, which is going to cause you to lose time on the stoplight-stoplight races. Stick with the 200R4. No mods needed and your available torque will more than make up for the gearing.

How difficult is the install and set up with this tranny?

I believe the 200R4 is pretty much a plug & play transmission with respect to mounting it under the car. You'll still need to do the shifter plate adjustements and whatnot.

What would be a good stall number for the torque converter?

As lightningrod said above, you'll need to know the operating rpms of your engine. Or more specifically, in what RPM range do you intend to do most of your driving. If you are below your stall speed most of the time, you are going to induce heat and wear on the torque converter. If I recall correctly, you pretty much want to keep the stall RPM matched up to the normal driving RPMs. About 2/3 of the way down this page here, you'll find pretty simple info about stall speeds.

What flex plate will I need?

Whomever you purchase your trans from will be able to tell you what plate you'll need.

I don't plan on racing the car but I would like to have something that would do a decent job of spanking those pesky ricers yet will drop the RPM for normal driving.

Either the 700R4 or 200R4 will do the job for normal driving since the only difference is first gear. With the amount of torque your engine is producing, as I said above, the 200R4 should do you just fine without the potential headaches of the conversions needed for the 700R4.