GM Waterpump Fit ???????

[Bill75]

Check this out..........I decided to get the GM AL pump since they advertised it to fit the ZZ4 engine. NOT!!

 

[bossvette]

If its going in a Vette you will need a short waterpump there are several that will fit, but beware some serpentine systems run the pump it the opposite direction. Be sure it is for a Vette if thats what it is going into.

 

[Jack]

Looks like the cam stop boss is in the way ... grind it off ... you won't use it.

But before you do that ... consider this.

For sbc there are short pumps, long pumps & vette pumps ... primary differences being the measurement from front of hub face to block flange.

Typical short approx 5.545"

Typical vette approx 5.795"

Typical long approx 7.250"

Starting about MY1969 Vette pulleys & alt/ps pump brackets are different from other cars. Typical short pump is too short for a vette ... its pulley will end up being to far to rear and will require a shim between pulley and hub to achieve proper belt-pulley alignment.

Whatever pump you use, ensure the pulleys & belts are aligned.
JACK:gap

 

[Bill75]

Yup this is the short pump for a vette. I just noticed the p/n on the casting is 14011013, the p/n on the box is 14011012 which is what it's supposed to be. Wonder if some Mexican put the wrong part in the box??

CAM STOP BOSS! So that's what that is! I thought it was a gate from the casting they forgot to grind off.

Here's the write up on the 14011012 part, I think it should fit this car. What do you guys think? I'll measure it to the dims you gave Jack, and the one on my old motor.

Put your engine on a diet with this light-weight aluminum water pump. This heavy-duty pump has a reinforced snout, a large 1.50" diameter bearing, a strong 3/4" diameter shaft, and a cast iron rotor. This casting has the shortstyle mounting legs used on pre-1982 Corvettes, and a large hub with dual bolt patterns.

Technical Notes: The aluminum pump housing has a boss which can be drilled and tapped for a cam stop bolt to limit camshaft movement in competition engines equipped with roller or mushroom tappet cams. This water pump can be used with the composite timing cover on the ZZ4 engine only if you exchange the 1/4-20 bolts that hold the rear sheet metal plate to the water pump to a pan head design bolt P/N 14010976 or equivalent after-market bolt.

 

[Bill75]

Here's the long pump from the new engine and the new one. They do look a little different, especially the dia. of the hose connection.

 

[Bill75]

Dimensions look good, I guess it should be OK unless you guys see something else. I'll grind it off tomorrow, had enough for today.

Thanks for help, saved me from an embarrassing moment yelling at the GM parts guy. :ugh

Bill

 

[Jack]

Like bossvette said ... there could be a serpentine issue too.

Typical serpentine pump rotates OPPOSITE from crank. Serpentine pump is Counterclockwise. Standard pump is Clockwise. The alum pump in pic LOOKS like standard rotation, but I'm definately NOT certain.

As for alignment, it's MUCH MUCH easier to align pulleys on a swap if you first do it with motor OUT of car. Now you have different pump and different damper ... slight differences in front-to-back dimensions common ... but you're gonna use them with existing components/brackets/pulleys. Best check that pump pulley actually fits hub AND does not rub on pump casting. Best dry fit all components/brackets/pulleys while motor out of car.
JACK:gap
-edit-quite often casting number & part number are different ... I dunno if you have a mismatch or not.

 

[Bill75]

OK on everything Jack, I'll double check the rotation as you guys suggested.

Yes it would be easier to set up everything on the stand rather then bending over the fender later, great suggestion. Thanks

Swapping the engine is the easy part, getting the engine bay cleaned up, replacing broken/worn parts, refinishing rusted metal etc is the time consuming part! Every time I remove something I find something else that needs attention, pretty soon I'll be at the rear bumper! I used to have a boat and thought that was bad! HA!
It's great therapy though, thanks for the advice.

Bill

 

[JohnZ]

Yup this is the short pump for a vette. I just noticed the p/n on the casting is 14011013, the p/n on the box is 14011012 which is what it's supposed to be. Wonder if some Mexican put the wrong part in the box??

The part number and the casting number are two different things; that casting is used for several different finished applications (machining and pressed-on hub dimensions), so that casting is the basis for several different finished assemblies, each of which will have a different PART number.

 

[Bill75]

The part number and the casting number are two different things; that casting is used for several different finished applications (machining and pressed-on hub dimensions), so that casting is the basis for several different finished assemblies, each of which will have a different PART number.

Hi John..........Thanks

 

[Bill75]

Update On GM Alum Pump

BEWARE!! This waterpump will NOT FIT A ZZ4 ENGINE!!!!!!! Without changing the timing cover. The special shoulder bolts used to secure the cover stick up too high and interfere with the water snout so it will not seat to the block. It's about 1/4" away from seating and there isn't enough screw to grind off to make it fit. Additionally the cover hits the casting in the back. This has nothing to do with the suggested screw replacement on the back of the pump.

GM Performance part # is 14011012

This pump will work fine on a standard 350 without the composite cover.

Bill

 

[Jack]

Pull the cover ... put a double roller set in (your ZZ4 probably has OE single row) ... replace cover w/ conventional steel.

 

[Bill75]

Pull the cover ... put a double roller set in (your ZZ4 probably has OE single row) ... replace cover w/ conventional steel.

Hmmmm, I don't know Jack, do I really need to do that? I'm almost ashamed to say it but the only reason I got that pump was that it looked nice with the aluminium heads. It's not high volume, just aluminium. Well, I guess another reason was I wanted to get a GM pump that was good quality and I knew would work with the engine because it was made for it. So much for that part! HA!

Bill

Here's a pic of the problem. http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/Bill75/SideView3.jpg

 

[Bill75]

Bill:
Have you ground off the alum pump's cam stop boss yet?

Of course!!! What else! Yeah I brought it to the GM dealer and he called the GMPP place while I was there and actually talked to a human. The parts guy is trying to explain the problem to the GMPP guy with some difficulty so the parts guy says "The customer is right here, why don't I have him explain it to you". He starts to pass me the phone and I can hear the guy on the other end yell "No, NO, I can't talk to him!!" Parts guy almost broke his arm jerking the phone back so fast. I'm thinking is this stupid or what??

I had my hand over the cam stop boss I ground down, don't think he saw it yet. So they asked me to take some digital photos and forward them so they could see the problem which I did. I'm still waiting to hear back. Sure glad I'm not stranded on the side of the road.ad They'll probably use my photos in a tech bulletin.

Anybody wanna buy a slightly altered nice aluminium pump, very low miles, been riding around in the box on my front seat!

I'll screw around with these guys until I get sick of it and go somewhere else and get the iron pump as you said, I'm sure it'll work fine too. You'd think after I dropped about $4k for this engine with GMPP they'd be a little more coorporative!

Bill

 

[Jack]

Bill:
Have you ground off the alum pump's cam stop boss yet?

If the iron pump fits your pulley setup ... I'd suggest using it ... the iron pump will cool very well. Also, the OE single roller set hold ups quite well too ... although narrower, it has a larger pitch than the double row setup ... seen the OE ZZ4 set run 3 seasons in an asphalt circle track supertruck.

I think the bolts/cover/alum pump could be ground/manipulated to fit ... but it'd take some time & doodling w/ a die grinder/dremel.

One thing I really HATE about GMPP ... there is NO centralized tech support that I know of ... AFAIK, tech available ONLY through GMPP dealers ... I sure would like to know contact # for centralized GMPP tech ... yea, yea I know there's an 800 number ... but when me or anyone else I know calls it for tech we're always referred to a GMPP dealer ... how many times has the GMPP dealer been uninformed / dead wrong? Heck I recently called it and got referred to a GMPP dealer who is no longer in business ... just more signals of the general's woes. Conversely, when I call SpeedPro's toll-free number ... I get a tech who knows the parts and can even look up (& interpret!) the part's engineering drawing ... RANT
JACK:gap

 

[Bill75]

How the heck did that happen??? Read your reply and mine posted before yours

 

[VetteThunder]

Go Electric!

You could save yourself the pain and go for an electric water pump, you also gain some ponies back too. Of course that means that you have to get an electric fan or 2 as well and save more ponies... Geee isn't that a shame!!

Jegs has a great selection. Click on this link.

 

[Bill75]

Thanks for the idea and the link Thunder, I think I'll keep it simple for now. Getting this thing back in the car and running is enough for me at the moment. Nice looking stuff, wonder how the electric motor lifespan is?

 

[Jack]

How the heck did that happen??? Read your reply and mine posted before yours

That's strange ... maybe CAC server has relegated me to png (persona non gratis)? Dunno?

Bill, I'll check locally if it can be recalled exactly which alum pump was used on ZZ4 & if any mods were required.

MEANWHILE: You may've this elsewhere ... but EXACTLY which pulley setup will you use? ... is it stock OE VETTE brackets for ps & alt? ... and will it be standard rotation or reverse? ... Vbelt or Serpentine? Please be explicit as possible?

Weekdays, you might also check w/ large pro race supplier CV Products 1-800-448-1223 www.cvproducts.com and/or pump mfg Stewart Components (336) 859-2555 www.stewartcomponents.com .

Once you're certain you cannot use the pump, I might be interested.
Jack:gap

-edit- corrected bad link for stewart

 

[Bill75]

Jack,

This will be all standard stuff: 'V' belts with standard rotation and standard PS, A/C, Alt brackets. Just saw your post, I'll check out the links you provided. Thanks a bunch!

If the GMPP guys don't own up to this, it's yours if your interested.

Talk to you later. Bill