Me No Sweat No More.. Bought Me A New A/C System ..This is the Best one I Have Seen.

[Viet Nam Vett]

Right on BoB,
Exchanging ideas is what this Hobby is all about. I have leraned from you and 67 Heaven and Kid_Again Rich Lagasse and many others here on this and other forums.

As you say..its air flow thru the condensor. I ordered the Fan Kit for the Condensor just to make sure I have flow for A/C and enough air pressure to make it back to the Engine Radiator.

On those hot days in traffic idling at 750 or so rpm with the A/C blasting ...I want to make sure the BB stays cool.

What's been your experience with MidYear A/C systems WITHOUT a front mounted condesor fan. How did they preform Vs with the fan ?

 

[stepinwolf]

Mark,

Most of the setups I have done, ultimately all needed additional electric fans, especially if you intend to have the AC running at low engine speed, or in slow traffic. The issue is not should I install one, but where to install it.

Some suppliers will sell you a fan that is designed to be mounted in the front of the condenser. BAD IDEA. These are the most inefficient fans I have ever seen. You can not expect to be able to blow much air through the fins, but I guarantee you that you can get 75% more air by drawing it through with a puller fan on the opposite side.

My feeling is that they do it in this way to in order to guarantee that they will not be receiving any tech calls from installers that are worried about the space available between the radiator and the engine fan or shroud. Take my word for it, in our mid-years there is so much space to install one of these fans, that once it's in place, 9 out of 10 people who look into the engine bay, don't even notice it.

If you have any doubts about how air travels, try blowing through a screen door while holding your hand on the opposite side, and you will barely feel any air movement. Then place your lips on the screen and breath in, and you will see that your lungs do not have enough capacity for the amount of air you can take in. You get the exact same effect with a puller fan.

On my Red 65 Convertible, I can turn off the engine off, and with only the electric fan running, if you lean over the fender , the hair on your head ( for those who have some ) will be waving in the wind created by the puller fan, and take my word for it, I am not kidding on this one.:nono

Here are sadly, the only pics I have of the fans position, and with the car in storage, it's not accessible for any photo shot in the near future.

Regards
Bob

 

[paul67]

Just a few comments/questions re TOTAL costs.

1) I have seen the note re POS micro-switches before. What is the solution?
2) Hot Rod Air controls - their own? Sliding underdash. What does this mean? Are stock vent/heating/defrost knobs bypassed?
3) I have Powerglide with the stock transmission cooler in front of the rad already. Where is the condensor located under these circumstances?
4) The subject of additional cooling fans ($s) has come up. Are they necessary particularly in view of potentially restricted airflow as per (3)?
5) I haven't seen a comment yet re additional pulleys ($s) and brackets ($s) needed. I had hoped for a pic.
6) No comment yet re a higher-amp alternator ($s) needed to drive all this (fans and temp sensors, A/C, modern stereo). Non-A/C C2s (like mine) came with a 37-amp alternator.

So the base unit price can be misleading.

 

[Viet Nam Vett]

Just a few comments/questions re TOTAL costs.

I think once you have determined what you need for your vette ..then that would be the base unit price.

1) I have seen the note re POS micro-switches before. What is the solution?
2) Hot Rod Air controls - their own? Sliding underdash. What does this mean? Are stock vent/heating/defrost knobs bypassed?
3) I have Powerglide with the stock transmission cooler in front of the rad already. Where is the condensor located under these circumstances?
4) The subject of additional cooling fans ($s) has come up. Are they necessary particularly in view of potentially restricted airflow as per (3)?
5) I haven't seen a comment yet re additional pulleys ($s) and brackets ($s) needed. I had hoped for a pic.
6) No comment yet re a higher-amp alternator ($s) needed to drive all this (fans and temp sensors, A/C, modern stereo). Non-A/C C2s (like mine) came with a 37-amp alternator.

So the base unit price can be misleading.

(1)... Kid_Agin Will have to answer that one as he used a Vintage Air System.

(2)...I'm not 100% sure on there New controls as We covered many other Items. In the pic I posted of there unit it shows the controls in the upper right hand corner. They are installed I think in palce of the stock contols. When I receive the unit I will show detail of the controls.

(2a)...There is an optional control assembly that is small that can mount under the dash on the driver side or passenger side or anywhere you want to mount it.
It has all the functions for A/C and heat and blower control. It's a universal control . This gives you the option of leaving your stock contols in place..and not using them but using the other control just mentioned.

(3).. Best answered by Hot Rod Air..??

(4)... I would say Yes ..use an optional fan. As Stepenwolf and I are posting above. And...I would speak to David at Hot Rod Air about this also.

(5)...Brakets for Compressor mounting are included in the kit. The Pulley is on the Compressor. You might need a 2 grove water pump pulley and a few new belts.

(6)... I would say ..upgrade your alternator. You will need some extra power to run the fan if added. The fan can pull any where from Ballpark..7-12 amps.
Also..the A/C compressor clutch will require some amps...not sure how many as I don't have that spec. Plus..what ever else you might add in the way of stereo etc. It can't hurt to upgrade the alternotor as it will be an improvement all around for the electrial system.

Below is a Pic of the under das control...I'm told it is only about 2 1/2 inches wide. Ther is another one that just has rotary knobs9 Not Pictured) . And eithe one can mount vertically or horizontally..the control face also changes for mounting direction.

Hope this helps

 

[Viet Nam Vett]

Paaul,

To ad to the excellent responce of my Carlisle sidekick, here are a few more thoughts on your questions.

1

Doooooooooooooh..! Old Folks Brain Fart....I get-em too. otfl

 

[stepinwolf]

Paul,

To ad to the excellent response of my Carlisle sidekick, here are a few more thoughts on your questions.

1 Micro switches: I have not been obliged to, since everyone I ever installed are still functioning, but I would think that you can certainly purchase some that are of a better quality.

2 Controls: Can't go there on this one, since almost all the installations I have done were completed with factory supplied controls. The only exceptions were a few cars that needed major mods to the fiberglass dash, so I installed a brushed aluminum " slider " that can be purchased from Classic. ( see pic )

3 Condenser: It should be installed next to the radiator. When I do the automatic tranny thing, I use an add-on unit to cool the transmission oil that I mount at a forward angle. This way I can get better cooling , and less heat is transmitted to the condenser. ( see pic #2 & 3 )

4 Fan needed: Paul, more then ever, just make sure it's a puller

5 Pulleys: Each installation, and engine setup ( P/S or not, alternator side, etc, ) is different, so the exact system must be setup for your own car. This is not going to be an expensive proposition, however you must expect an additional cash outlay, since nothing is free anymore Paul.

6 Alternator: This is also an expense that will not put you in the poor house. I recommend that you replace yours with something close to 60 amps so that you can get run everything , without maxing out the alternator.

6a Re Compressor: in a few installations I did, the extra radiator cooling fan was hooked up to the same connection ( a few relays here man ) to the compressor hook-up, so when the customer turned on the AC, the extra fan would automatically cut in.

Stepinwolf

 

[paul67]

My thanks for those informative replies and pics. They were very much appreciated. It is so difficult to get a handle on things from vendors' hype and pics on a web site. My estimate on costs is >$3,000CDN. And that does not include any labour. I will have to think about this. May just leave my coupe windows rolled down.

 

[stepinwolf]

My thanks for those informative replies and pics. They were very much appreciated. It is so difficult to get a handle on things from vendors' hype and pics on a web site. My estimate on costs is >$3,000CDN. I will have to think about this.

Paul,

My impression is that at 3,000 $ cnd, you are right in the ballpark.

Once the system and ad-ons are purchased, and the additional charges that we are so fond of, such as brokerage fee's, trsp, handling, taxes, and what ever else they can think of, is tallied up, you will have spent your three grand.

You will however, have to do the labor, or have it farmed out at a later date for some extra money. In all the systems I have installed, you can count anywhere between 20 to 30 total hours for the complete installation.

It is rather difficult to guesstimate anything closer, because there are too many unknowns. I remember one system that was so quick to install, it was as if I opened the hood, and after dropping everything out of the boxes, they installed them selfs. On another, not one piece of hard line or hose, fit the application. Every one needed re-bending or straightening, hoses were either too short, or not long enough to reach the compressor. That was not a fun thing.

Good luck with your choices, and keep cold.



Stepinwolf

 

[Viet Nam Vett]

Heh Bob,
In the pic's you posted of your Vette... You mentioned that you want to use a puller fan. So..just to recap here as I got confused the way you posted...You Condensor is mounted against the radiator and your using a puller fan on the rad side. Is this correct.??

Or Is the Condensor spaced away from the rad with a puller fan insatlled behind the condensor .. and in front of the rad.??? And your aslo still using the engine rad fan in the engine compartment.??


And when I got home I thought......The Condensor is in the engine compartment behind the rad...and....the fan is pulling air thru the rad and then thru the condensor. Do I geta an "atta Boy for this one....??This must be wnat you mean.

If so...then that's a problem as I have the Dewitts Dual Fan Rad set up like 67 Heaven.


:gap

 

[THORIN]

As Mark says, " taint no fuss, nor any tit for tat," it's called exchanging ideas. In regards to the heater control mods, I have done both, and although it looks intimidating, it's a rather easy fix, and once completed, nothing is noticeable, nor obtrusive.

For Thorin,

I have noticed that most of the time, when people complain about the lack of sufficient cooling, 90 % of the time it's either low fluid, or not enough air circulating through the condenser. Once a system is properly installed, every cubic inch of air entering the frontal area, must first pass through the condenser, and then the radiator. I have seen installations ( won't mention who ) where by I could get my hand in between the radiator, and the condenser. Not much efficiency there, :ugh nor cooling for that matter

Stepinwolf

Educate me. Why would distance between the two make a difference. Isn't the max amount of air going through the condenser either way?

 

[THORIN]

Who's A/C system Kit is it.??

I just ment that I had my original factory air gone over. I'm not happy with it. So I am interested in what else is out there

 

[Viet Nam Vett]

I just ment that I had my original factory air gone over. I'm not happy with it. So I am interested in what else is out there

Sound s good..

 

[stepinwolf]

Heh Bob,
In the pic's you posted of your Vette... You mentioned that you want to use a puller fan. So..just to recap here as I got confused the way you posted...You Condenser is mounted against the radiator and your using a puller fan on the rad side. Is this correct.??

Or Is the Condenser spaced away from the rad with a puller fan installed behind the condenser .. and in front of the rad.??? And your also still using the engine rad fan in the engine compartment.??


:gap

Confus'en, eh! age will do dat to you Mark.

The factory radiator is in it's normal position, the condenser is in the front of the rad, and the puller is on the engine side of the rad, pulling the air through the condenser, and then the rad itself. This setup has proven in the past to be the most efficient at cooling the engine, and especially the condenser since the more air you can pull through the condenser, the colder the AC will run.

Initially, I had the regular fan and clutch in place, but to get the maxi mun amount of air moving, I replaced the clutch with a fixed adapter that we used to get from C-Central. I did not remove the fan completely, since the electric fan was not setup to run regularly, but connected to the compressor wire, and only ran when the AC was on.

Stepinwolf

 

[stepinwolf]

Educate me. Why would distance between the two make a difference. Isn't the max amount of air going through the condenser either way?

When the two are not close enough, there is dirty air flowing around both, and not getting through both the radiator and condenser.

In a regular factory installation, the condenser/radiator were setup with foam seals that ran along the bottom, on both sides, and across the top of the radiator, so that all the air entering the engine compartment would have to go through both units. My guess is that if their engineers figured out that this was the best preforming layout, it should still be applicable today.

I didn't invent none of this, I just copied what worked originally. You also mention your factory system is not very efficient, did you check your seals, dryer :eyerole and gas lately. It might be easier to get yours up and running properly, then swapping out the complete system.

Good luck with your choices

regards
Stepinwolf

 

[WayneC]

Initially, I had the regular fan and clutch in place, but to get the maxi mun amount of air moving, I replaced the clutch with a fixed adapter that we used to get from C-Central. I did not remove the fan completely, since the electric fan was not setup to run regularly, but connected to the compressor wire, and only ran when the AC was on.

Stepinwolf

Bob, I've been following along, but now I'm a bit confused... your pictures show an electric fan attached to the radiator. Looks like that could be a solid hub & fan in the top pic, but no signs of a mechanical fan in the other 2 pics... did you remove the mechanical hub & fan to allow a better view of the electric fan in those 2 pics?

 

[stepinwolf]

Bob, I've been following along, but now I'm a bit confused... your pictures show an electric fan attached to the radiator. Looks like that could be a solid hub & fan in the top pic, but no signs of a mechanical fan in the other 2 pics... did you remove the mechanical hub & fan to allow a better view of the electric fan in those 2 pics?

Wayne,

You are absolutely correct in your statement regarding the solid hub. As for the lower two photos, they were taken during the build ( notice there is no upper hose as yet ) and when all was in place, everything looked like the top photo, with the electric fan, snuggled up against the radiator.

Once the engine fan in place, there was at least 3 inches of clearance between the top section of the electric fan, and the engine fan.

Stepinwolf

 

[Kid_Again]

(1)... Kid_Agin Will have to answer that one as he used a Vintage Air System.

(2)...I'm not 100% sure on there New controls as We covered many other Items. In the pic I posted of there unit it shows the controls in the upper right hand corner. They are installed I think in palce of the stock contols. When I receive the unit I will show detail of the controls.

(2a)...There is an optional control assembly that is small that can mount under the dash on the driver side or passenger side or anywhere you want to mount it.
It has all the functions for A/C and heat and blower control. It's a universal control . This gives you the option of leaving your stock contols in place..and not using them but using the other control just mentioned.

(3).. Best answered by Hot Rod Air..??

(4)... I would say Yes ..use an optional fan. As Stepenwolf and I are posting above. And...I would speak to David at Hot Rod Air about this also.

(5)...Brakets for Compressor mounting are included in the kit. The Pulley is on the Compressor. You might need a 2 grove water pump pulley and a few new belts.

(6)... I would say ..upgrade your alternator. You will need some extra power to run the fan if added. The fan can pull any where from Ballpark..7-12 amps.
Also..the A/C compressor clutch will require some amps...not sure how many as I don't have that spec. Plus..what ever else you might add in the way of stereo etc. It can't hurt to upgrade the alternotor as it will be an improvement all around for the electrial system.

Below is a Pic of the under das control...I'm told it is only about 2 1/2 inches wide. Ther is another one that just has rotary knobs9 Not Pictured) . And eithe one can mount vertically or horizontally..the control face also changes for mounting direction.

Hope this helps

Hey there...

OK, here's my take on the VA kit that I have. Perhaps Steppinwolf was talking about the very original VA kits but I do not use the center AC vents. I blocked them off and use the adjustable eyeballs that were supplied with the kit. I have no idea about the comment about keeping the beer cool, and I find the interior very comfortable without the need for an auxiliary fan.

Here's the very pragmatic reality of how my A/C functions. I have a '66 coupe with a zz440, stick, the VA kit and Tom Dewitt's dual fan aluminum radiator (obviously, no engine driven fan and i use water, water wetter and water pump additive). In Ocean City New Jersey, on a 95*/95%RH humidity, sunny afternoon, with the AC on, blower on mid speed, stopped dead in traffic waiting for the draw bridge to open and let some idiot boater go through, the car just climbs above 200* and stays there. You're not going to get anything better than that, IMHO. The coupe has a lot of heat gain from the rear windows and once I get out of first gear, i turn the blower down to the lowest setting and am very comfortable.

The VA microswitches that came with the kit were overriden by my use of a three-way electrical switch (3 pole? off in the center, on to the right or left). The VA kit uses the existing heater controls but actuates the microswitches for the AC off of the original heater cables - they just mashed the arms of the microswitches. So, I just looked at the schematic and bypassed all that junk. Turn the switch to AC in the spring and back to heat in the fall. I also didn't use the defrost option.

This is a 40 year old hobby car, not a Lexus. I have never missed the defrost option


Not the first time that I tended to disagree with people that I respect. These guys build cars to milspec. My cars need to last just one day longer than I do.

 

[stepinwolf]

Hey there...

OK, here's my take on the VA kit that I have. Perhaps Stepinwolf was talking about the very original VA kits but I do not use the center AC vents. I blocked them off and use the adjustable eyeballs that were supplied with the kit. I have no idea about the comment about keeping the beer cool, and I find the interior very comfortable without the need for an auxiliary fan.

If I thought for a minute that you were pulling my dick, I would not have responded, however I just want to make sure I am being understood.

Regarding the two center vents, yes I do use them, and because these are the closest to the unit, and with the shortest hoses, I guesstimate that about 60% of the output is redirected to these two vents. Since I cannot direct the output of these , they actually blow all the cold air directly between the front seats, into the rear compartment, hence the comment about the cold beer. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for your comment about not needing an auxiliary fan, either I am missing something here, or we are not talking about the same subject. When I mentioned that the systems ran better with an additional puller fan, I was referring to an electric puller fan, on the engine side of the radiator. Don't you have two of these. ?

regards
Stepinwolf

 

[Viet Nam Vett]

As for your comment about not needing an auxiliary fan, either I am missing something here, or we are not talking about the same subject. When I mentioned that the systems ran better with an additional puller fan, I was referring to an electric puller fan, on the engine side of the radiator. Don't you have two of these. ?

regards
Stepinwolf

Yes he do.... He has the Dual FAN Dewitts BB Radiator. The same one I have. It can suck a Golf Ball and a Crack Hooker thru a Garden Hose in a Heart Beat..

He tinks you were saying you needed an Condensor side Fan blowing in as well as the motor side Rad fan Sucking in.

In fact I was confused ...untill you cleared it up. Your using two fans one electric and one motor driven Inside the engine compartment... You Foxxy Smart Canadian....

 

[stepinwolf]

Yes he do.... He has the Dual FAN Dewitts BB Radiator. The same one I have. It can suck a Golf Ball and a Crack Hooker thru a Garden Hose in a Heart Beat..

He tinks you were saying you needed an Condensor side Fan blowing in as well as the motor side Rad fan Sucking in.

In fact I was confused ...untill you cleared it up. Your using two fans one electric and one motor driven Inside the engine compartment... You Foxxy Smart Canadian....

Exactly, and as far as being foxxy, shÎt I'v been called much worse.

Stepinwolf