Torque Steers?

[G Winter]

I haven't checked the alignment since I got it. this winter new tires go on , maybe new shocks then to the alignmnet shop.
Glenn

 

[SPANISHVETTS]

My rear toe is 1/16 IN on the LR and 1/8 IN on the RR. I know this off the top of my head, the rest I'll dig up and post later.

Toe should be the same on both sides. It is more imporant that the camber be the same from side to side than the exact amount of camber. I run a lot of negitive camber and have not noticed any additional tire wear.

I think that the factory settings are:
Front
toe 1/8 in
camber 0º
castor 5º Pos

Rear
toe 1/8 in
camber 0º

 

[JrRifleCoach]

Does anyone throw ballast in the drivers seat when getting an alignment?

 

[SPANISHVETTS]

Does anyone throw ballast in the drivers seat when getting an alignment?

Yelp along with 3/4 tank of gas.

We make the drivers sit in the cars druing the alignement process.

 

[AIRBUS]

NO!!! :L Not drifting! The drift I refer to is when the car slowly drifts rather than being steered. At certain speeds above 65 this drift can amount to half a lane. But again, we're talking about negligable power settings, not WOT. This happens when the drive train is wound up and applying light cruise power and then when the drivetrain unwinds as you let off the gas.

Yes I have C-beam plates which did resolve the WOT, AZZ out to the right! otfl Like I indicated in the begining, I found almost every mod and quality parts to get this problem resolved only for it to return. Thats why I'm fishing for anyone elses experiences to built a plan of attack.

Now one guy at the CF had a rather interesting twist. He races gas powered Radio Controlled cars and experienced that different spring pressures can cause the RC to " torque steer" under power. I know that the rear spring is centered, but the adjustments are considerably different from side to side. So I'm thing of spinning the spring around and testing the theroy.

What say you!?

The guy who sold my Vette to me used to drag an 87 model. He told me that, in his experience, the most frequent cause of torque steer was worn/tire bushings/cushions followed by worn hub bearings. I think he was prepping me for torque steer because when I left with the car I found that it did OK while you were into the throttle (talking enthusiastic accel here) but the moment you let off the car took a dive for the ditch. I replaced the tires and it went away. Sidewalls were flexing too much.

Anyway...you mentioned swapping the spring. I have my shocks (FX3) out for rebuild right now and I'd like to rebush my running gear but I'm put off by the fact that the book tells you to use the special spring compressor in order to remove the rubber parts. #1 I don't have or want to buy the compressor and #2 the car is on jack stands so no moving it to a shop. What is your recommendation here?

Thanks for permitting me the question.

 

[AIRBUS]

Sorry for the typo - didn't mean to use the word "tire" in that first sentence.

 

[Achilles]

You don't need a spring compressor. Get the car up on jack stands, ( unless you can work under it while it's sitting on the ground), place a hydrolic jack under one side of the transverse spring at the end, or tip of the spring. Jack up the spring to release preasure from the long bolt w/ the rubber bushings on it. Take the cotter pin out and take off the nut, then lower the jack until the spring is relaxed. Then do the other side. Install in revers order. You may have to have the rear off the ground for the spring to drop enough to rest in a hanging position.

Good luck!

I still think it's worn bushings causing mis-alignment of the rear wheels during coasting.

 

[Achilles]

With the tires off the ground, do the tires move sid to side 3 to 9 o'clockish direction?

 

[old-hot-rodder]

My Guess. Your posi rear is not posi-ing. I had a 64, 20 years ago and went crazy with the same problem. I put in another pumpkin (nice used unit) and all went away. With the irs suspension single tracking is a no no. just my 2 cents!

 

[JrRifleCoach]

With the tires off the ground, do the tires move sid to side 3 to 9 o'clockish direction?

Nope! The suspension (frt & r) have been overhauled. New everything (tie rods, bearings, shocks, etc) and a full ES poly bushing kit.

I have a used pumpkin on the way as well. I was doubting the posi as well.

 

[AIRBUS]

You don't need a spring compressor. Get the car up on jack stands, ( unless you can work under it while it's sitting on the ground), place a hydrolic jack under one side of the transverse spring at the end, or tip of the spring. Jack up the spring to release preasure from the long bolt w/ the rubber bushings on it. Take the cotter pin out and take off the nut, then lower the jack until the spring is relaxed. Then do the other side. Install in revers order. You may have to have the rear off the ground for the spring to drop enough to rest in a hanging position.

Good luck!

I still think it's worn bushings causing mis-alignment of the rear wheels during coasting.

Thanks ! You may be right about the bushings but I'm having good luck. There is no question, however, that my stuff under there is all junky. Rubber upper shock cushions up front on the right totally deteriorated. Just 75k miles.

 

[Hrtbeat1]

Just 75k miles.

And 15-16 years of exposure. The weather and elements themselves break down the rubber over time. I replaced the complete rear bushings with poly ... liked it so much I ordered the complete front set ... never got to install it though.

http://www.vbandp.com/instructions/htmlinstruct/align.htm

That is the list for specs according to VB and P


G

 

[AIRBUS]

And 15-16 years of exposure. The weather and elements themselves break down the rubber over time. I replaced the complete rear bushings with poly ... liked it so much I ordered the complete front set ... never got to install it though.

http://www.vbandp.com/instructions/htmlinstruct/align.htm

That is the list for specs according to VB and P


G

Well, you're right. I was in their site yesterday but didn't have time to put together a parts list. I'm going to call them today and order the whole enchilada. If you've still got those parts I'd be willing to take them off your hands, assuming we can do business.

 

[Hrtbeat1]

Well, you're right. I was in their site yesterday but didn't have time to put together a parts list. I'm going to call them today and order the whole enchilada. If you've still got those parts I'd be willing to take them off your hands, assuming we can do business.

Man I wish I did. I sent the front rebuild kit, extreme front spring, front sway bar, front Bilsteins, Camber brace, and all the new extra bushings back over a month ago. Still waiting on my credit, which has me a little miffed. I just received all the parts 4 days before Katrina hit, then ended up losing the car due to circumstances of the storm. When I finally got a chance I called and was told that due to the amount of time that had elapsed they would take the parts back less a 10% restocking fee. Talk about adding insult to injury. Sure it was over a month since the parts all arrived, but look at the circumstances. We were without power for two weeks, telephones and cable/internet for almost a month, and many were without anything, the storm took all they had. How about just a little compassion. It almost made me wish St. Petersburg would experience the same kind of devistation.

Sorry about the rant.

 

[AIRBUS]

Man I wish I did. I sent the front rebuild kit, extreme front spring, front sway bar, front Bilsteins, Camber brace, and all the new extra bushings back over a month ago. Still waiting on my credit, which has me a little miffed. I just received all the parts 4 days before Katrina hit, then ended up losing the car due to circumstances of the storm. When I finally got a chance I called and was told that due to the amount of time that had elapsed they would take the parts back less a 10% restocking fee. Talk about adding insult to injury. Sure it was over a month since the parts all arrived, but look at the circumstances. We were without power for two weeks, telephones and cable/internet for almost a month, and many were without anything, the storm took all they had. How about just a little compassion. It almost made me wish St. Petersburg would experience the same kind of devistation.

Sorry about the rant.

Man, I feel ya. Sorry to hear it turned out that way. We went down to Stonewall, MS after the storm to help family and, upon finding out they were OK, helped out at the Nat Gd Armory. Then, our kids cleared fallen trees for folks, and our Son-in-law left his gen to the church for whomever needed. All that to say that we got only a glimpse of what you all endured. I'm very disappointed to hear that the vendor in St. Pete took the stance they did.

 

[Hrtbeat1]

Man, I feel ya. Sorry to hear it turned out that way. We went down to Stonewall, MS after the storm to help family and, upon finding out they were OK, helped out at the Nat Gd Armory. Then, our kids cleared fallen trees for folks, and our Son-in-law left his gen to the church for whomever needed. All that to say that we got only a glimpse of what you all endured. I'm very disappointed to hear that the vendor in St. Pete took the stance they did.

Well it is their company policy. Normally something like this would make me stop doing business with a company. The only thing is their products ARE that good. When I replace my Vette Im sure I will be giving them a call. Its just sad that a coustomer spends roughly 3 grand with a company and then gets the run around like this. Oh well live and learn.

Good to hear about your family. That was very generous of you and your family to volunteer your time and belongings. Im sure the families you helped are greatful even if they didn't see first hand. I know I am greatful to all the people that came here and helped out when we needed it most. That is something that I will remember for a long time ... seeing all the convoys of help coming in, from across the country. Where else do people pull together like that.

Sorry to hijack the post.


G

 

[SPANISHVETTS]

Man I wish I did. I sent the front rebuild kit, extreme front spring, front sway bar, front Bilsteins, Camber brace, and all the new extra bushings back over a month ago. Still waiting on my credit, which has me a little miffed. I just received all the parts 4 days before Katrina hit, then ended up losing the car due to circumstances of the storm. When I finally got a chance I called and was told that due to the amount of time that had elapsed they would take the parts back less a 10% restocking fee. Talk about adding insult to injury. Sure it was over a month since the parts all arrived, but look at the circumstances. We were without power for two weeks, telephones and cable/internet for almost a month, and many were without anything, the storm took all they had. How about just a little compassion. It almost made me wish St. Petersburg would experience the same kind of devistation.

Sorry about the rant.

I spent one of my best lifetimes on the Coast. We had a home in Ocean Springs until Hurricane Camille came through in ´69 and later I lost a sailboat to Hurricane Sam. I feel what you guys went through and my heart goes out to you.
This restocking charge gets up my nose. One on one help is what makes the world go around; any business that will not put their policy aside to help someone during a crisis like Katrina should not be long lived.

Please PM me the name of the vendor and I will be sure and never buy from them.

Keep your chin up. The Coast always comes back better and more prosperous than before.

 

[gmjunkie]

Part of the problem is the geometry of the rear spring itself. During movement the spring will slightly change the toe of the rear wheels. I recently saw an show on Speed channel that was talking about this problem in reference to autocrossing. As the spring loads and the tires/wheels go upwards it causes the rear tires to toe in more, thus changing the driveability. The suggested change was to toe the rears out slightly.

It is a little harder to explain but with the video of the wheel travel it made more sense.

The Problem now Day's is there is almost No Good Alignment left!! We are a Vanishing Breed replaced by computer wizz kid's that only Know, TOW and GO alignment!! If it's close they let it go!! They can't set in the seat and drive it and tell that it is still not right or tell which end or side is not right!!! No 2 car's or Truck's are alike, When assembled on the same line one right after another the frame's (WILL NOT MEASURE the SAME) I've seen'm as much as 8mm off NEW!! I've had to loosen rear and front cradles and shift them to get the alignment, loosen trailing arm's and shift them forward or backward, run rear tow off to right or left. My equip. is antique and Manual and take's allot of time!! And sometimes 2-3 Test Drives and changes. But when I'm Finished, It will Slither down the Road!! And be friendly to your Tire's!! junk!!

 

[SPANISHVETTS]

The Problem now Day's is there is almost No Good Alignment left!! We are a Vanishing Breed replaced by computer wizz kid's that only Know, TOW and GO alignment!! If it's close thy let it go!! Thy can't set in the seat and drive it and tell that it is still not right or tell which end or side is not right!!! No 2 car's or Truck's are alike, When assembled on the same line one right after another the frame's (WILL NOT MEASURE the SAME) I've seen'm as much as 8mm off NEW!! I've had to loosen rear and front cradles and shift them to get the alignment, loosen trailing arm's and shift them forward or backward, run rear tow off to right or left. My equip. is antique and Manual and take's allot of time!! And sometimes 2-3 Test Drives and changes. But when I'm Finished, It will Slither down the Road!! And be friendly to your Tire's!! junk!!

That is why I do my own! The local Mercedes shop told me that camber was not adjustable on the C series. With idiots like that who needs a service center.
The rear camber on a C-4 requires a knowing touch and then a lot of torque. Otherwise it will never be right on the mark.

 

[code5coupe]

Part of the problem is the geometry of the rear spring itself. During movement the spring will slightly change the toe of the rear wheels. I recently saw an show on Speed channel that was talking about this problem in reference to autocrossing. As the spring loads and the tires/wheels go upwards it causes the rear tires to toe in more, thus changing the driveability. The suggested change was to toe the rears out slightly.

I doubt the spring is the cause of Coach's problem. If it were, we'd ALL have the same problem. Suspension geometry causes toe change, springs don't. If this problem occured during tire slippage, then spring loads would have an effect, but that's not the case here.

Since not all C4's exhibit the same problem as Coach is experiencing, we have to assume that something is not normal. What might that be?

LSD? If the limited slip is slipping badly, it would be acting like a non-limited slip, and open diffs(non LS) will not pull a car to one side. If the limited slip is locked up and the rear tires were of different diameters, then that could be causing it....but Coach would KNOW if his LS was locked up! So we can rule that out.
Tires? Coach put new tires on and the problem remained. Rule out tires.
How about a brake dragging? This would cause a pull under closed throttle, but not an opposite pull under open throttle. So that's not it.
Diamond frame? A possibility, but a remote one. A chassis that bent would have shown up in other areas.
There is only one thing left: your rear toe is changing during power application and power-off condition. Check all the rear suspension bushings, tie rod ends, etc. I'm betting you'll find something amiss there.
Good luck!

Larry