V8's vs. 4 bangers with a turbo

[Vette Virgin]

Just for purposes of discussion, I have a sis 'n law that absolutely hates every car the the US produces. She used to race an
RX-3 and currently owns a Subaru WRX and a 1970's era Porsche.

Says there there is no reason to own such big and heavy cars if you want performance when you can get light cars/motors with superchargers/turbos to match the big US cars. Plus, she says, the smaller cars' brakes last a lot longer and perform much better. Obviously hates my C5.

I realize that you on the CAC will disagree with her, but why? Obviously I can't support myself in an argument, YET, as I'm still fairly new in Vette ownership, but your input can help me out.

Thanks!!

 

[vee93]

Man! Is she kiddin?!

Rev up your V8 and let her rev up her 4-banger and get a listen to that coffee can exhaust on a 4-banger with it's swarm of bees-like sound!!!! ooooo! Impressive. NOT!!!

OH COME ON!!!!! So she raced-big woop-dee-do. Compare torque. Hell, race her.

Has she EVER driven a Vette? Look, I own a '99 Z24 Cavalier. For what it is and with a few mods-it has some pop for WHAT IT IS. HP at 150 stock to 190, then to 205. So what. That's still no where near the 385 you have stock. Add some mods to what you have as stock and you get more power.

What's she toppin' out at? Think about it.... By the time you'd get even close to redlining around, what? 5600rpm? She'd be a speck on the horizon line in your rear view mirror. No contest. NOS-the little hook up bombs of the ricer set, is cheating.

Why spend all that money to beef up some little 4or 6 banger export (or domestic) when you can just save your $$$ and buy a Vette. Street legal race car and still the mileage ain't bad either.

And yeah, you CAN defend yourself. Do a 1/4 mile against her.

 

[warren s]

You can put thousands into a WRX and get a car that runs in the 12 second range. After a few years, if you are lucky and still are running the same motor / transmission you now have a car worth a fraction of what it cost you and it still is a butt ugly squared off import.

Vettes don’t need turbos or Naaazzz, that the whole point. Ask her why the big heavy Vette gets through the slalom faster.

The only time there will be a replacement for cubic inch displacement is when a 350 Hp turbo 4 banger costs the same to build as a 350 Hp 8-cylinder motor.

Years ago my brother had a souped up RX-4 (1974) with the 13B wankel motor. It ran in the 13s, but the amount of work it took far exceeded what it would have taken to build a small block with the same power.

 

[eccm]

quite simply each one its taste(choice) and its desires why for comparing them? me I am French ( I think that you realized : my english isn't so good) and I love the American cars . I have only américan cars at home and a lot of french people don't understand me. when you tested V8....... .......... there is nothing to say but just to LISTEN
eric

 

[tomls1]

look at it this way. take all the mods that she needs to put on one of her imports to make it respectable and put the same mods on your vette (nos, s/c etc.) then run them together...NO CONTEST.:cool

 

[RonJ]

Cheapest power there is:

CUBIC INCHES!!!

 

[atmmac]

There really is no replacement for displacement.

 

[Gorgon]

My sister has a Subaru WRX wagon and it's a fun little car to drive. I see what she is trying to say, but there are some holes in her thinking that she is probably not aware.

Weight: The '04 coupe and convertible (within 2 pounds of each other) only weigh 150 pounds more than the WRX with manual tranny and ~100 pounds more than the WRX with an automatic. But this car only comes with 227hp and a lowly 217ft-lb of tq. The Corvette's base power of 350hp and 375ft-lbs of tq (for manual) more than makes up for the difference in weight. Even comparing the lighter WRX, the vette has to move 9.3lbs/hp while the WRX needs to move 13.6lbs/hp. Advantage Corvette.

Well, it's not fair to compare the base WRX. The WRX STi has more power and would compare more favorably you say? Well, this rocket has 300hp and 300tq versus 227hp and 217tq. But this car actually weighs ~20 pounds MORE than a Corvette. This comparison fairs better for the WRX STI, but the Vette still wins with 9.3lbs/hp versus the STi's 10.9lbs/hp. Advantage Corvette.

The obvious benefit having driven both is the generous amounts of torque the V8 will generate at any RPM. Driving the Subaru the machine is a dog below 3000RPM until that turbo spools. You have no power to move out of your own way if necessary at lower RPM. Almost got hit in this car because of turbo lag. Advantage Corvette.

She has a valid point in the sheer size of the Corvette. I mean the car is almost 6 whole inches longer than an STi and 5 whole inches wider.

Say you want to take a trip? Will you fit more items in your 14 cubic foot trunk or the 11 cubic foot trunk of the STi? (Granted the STi has a back seat you can throw things in.)

And then you know those four cylinders are so much more fuel efficient. That's why the Corvette could never compete with the STi's 18 city and 24 highway. That is unless it's rated 19 city and 28 highway. Hmm, Corvette wins again. On trips to TN and NC this summer we averaged 30mpg in our C5.

I'm having a hard time finding the benefits of the import. I only compared the Subaru because you said it was a car she owned and I've had some experience with it myself. I tried to find something on brakes, but I'm guessing the Corvette rotors are larger all around than the Subaru's. Given that the Subaru weighs in similar to the Vette, I'm guessing the Vette brakes will outperform.

The only real way to convince her is to let her drive the car. It doesn't take a lot of time behind the wheel to appreciate the benefits of the car.

Leon

 

[corvettecrazy]

i may have missed it buy you forget to mention that while the WRX does have less hp and torque it haas all four wheels pulling and pushing it. which definately gives the WRX an advantage

 

[Gorgon]

i may have missed it buy you forget to mention that while the WRX does have less hp and torque it haas all four wheels pulling and pushing it. which definately gives the WRX an advantage

AWD did not help me get out of the road quicker to avoid getting hit due to lack of torque while I was waiting for the turbo to spool.

But you are correct, AWD is a benefit to the car and is what helps the car achieve the performance numbers it can generate. But it also adds the weight back onto what would be a much lighter car. Advantage Subaru for the AWD.

Leon

 

[Gorgon]

I dug up my November Car and Driver for the Road Test Digest. Braking from 70mph, Corvette 162 feet, Subaru WRX STi 166 feet.

Corvette:

12.8 in. rotors front, 12 in. rear.

STi:

12.7 in. front, 12.3 in rear.

I'll talk a little more on my previous post. The Subaru has AWD which offers stability on the road. The Corvette has Active Handling, which will allow a driver to maintain control of the car in a variety of driving situations. Also, with Competative Driving Mode, the Corvette driver can allow the computer to aid in vehicle control without traction control. Two different ways to maintain control of the vehicle. Though Active Handling doesn't allow the Corvette to put the power to the ground any faster.

EDIT: Correct rotor sizes for Subaru. Seems Car and Driver lied.

Leon

 

[livinez]

quite simply each one its taste(choice) and its desires why for comparing them? me I am French ( I think that you realized : my english isn't so good) and I love the American cars . I have only américan cars at home and a lot of french people don't understand me. when you tested V8....... .......... there is nothing to say but just to LISTEN
eric

OH yea NOTHING like a cammed snarling V8!!! Nothing!
Raced Kawasaki 900 &1000 4cycle 13,000RPM 150 HP 4stroke screamers(thay had a nice snarl too)
I think your sis is showing signs of...., nevermind.

Same old thing "If I gotta explain, you'll never understand"

If you dont understand, then you should sell that "thing" and go buy a Lexus, Porsche or some other "status" ride. Like maybe a SUV minivan with a few thousand in 20" wheels & tires

 

[Mad-Mic]

hey i'm gonna take up for the imports on this one. there is nothing wrong with them. strip down a WRX or STi and you get a pretty quick little machine. just like Corvettes how many stay stock? bump the boost. add a boost controller now your talking just as quick if not quicker than a vette. do some exhaust work, larger intercooler, turbo upgrade and boost controller now you are in Z06 range.

BUT it's not my cup of tea. i am lucky enough to be able to ride in and drive different cars. the only thing i can think of that i would buy other than a corvette would be a 4th gen LS1 F-Bod but these ride ruff and are heavy on the steering. the tremec 6 speed sketchy when shifting. not smooth at all.

the imports kick our a$$'s this year at the domestic import shoot out.

http://www.mirdrag.com/results/03results/november_index/031109.htm#STREET RENEGADE

scroll down to Hybrid Modified. these are 4 cyl 6 cyl motor swaps allowed N/A. now take a look at Street Renegade take a look for yourself. domestics get no power adders vs imports 1 power adder. Wild Street domestics get 1 power adder and imports get 2.

these things can be FAST as hell!

 

[livinez]

Without a doubt

If a person wants near the ultimate in preformance ( stock or modified) then the imports are the way to go nowadays.
But they still arent A VETTE!:t
Park a STI, a RX8, the new Z car and any clean vette in a row and watch who looks at which one and which gets longer looks. Now open the hoods.
The new Jap offings are excellent cars but the arent a cult, symbol, or nearly as sexy. New and especially after 10 years.
And you cant make people like you Sister in law understand.
Maybe ask her what the jap cars will be worth in 20-30 years. Now look at vettes values.
If she still argues then tell her I'll sell her my 69 Datsun 2000 roadster for half the price of a clean 69 Corvette roadster!
Which is twice what its worth!

 

[03yellow]

I’ve had the opportunity to drive a number of different automobiles of varying ages. It really comes down to everything has its advantages and disadvantages. With the small imports it seems that you can get much higher percentage increases in power and performance for less money. I’ve driven my friend's WRX and didn’t really enjoy it that much, especially compared to my C5. That said, I really wouldn’t want to rally a vette and I can appreciate the awd when trying to race on a dirt road. I’ve only had my vette on a track once and being an unmodified street car it pushed terribly in the corners.

I race a Ford Spec Racer in the SCCA, a 1570 lbs 100hp purpose built car, and have been in traffic with Z06s during practice. The vette has a much faster top speed and accelerates faster out of the corner as well. But, I always have to be careful when one passes me going into the corner, the SRF turns much faster and I’ll hit the vette in the ass if I don’t slow down in the turn. Then when were back on the strait I’m no competition what so ever.

Take formula 1 cars. They weight 1500+ lbs, have 3000cc V10 engines, no turbos or superchargers, and manage 900 hp because they redline at 19,000 rpm (yes that’s nineteen THOUSAND!) A bigger displacement engine might cause problems because the rotating mass would be so much heavier. A Winston cup car still manages the same amount of hp with a carbureted engine that displaces; I forget exactly 350ci 380ci somewhere in there. However, at 3000 lbs it would not be able to compete. I remember when Gordon and Montoya were at Indy and drove each others cars. Montoya was hitting the breaks at the250 yard marker in the cup car and Gordon was breaking at 50 yards in the f1. An extreme example is a shifter cart. I got to try one out the last time I went to Bondurant in Phoenix. On their 1.8 mile teaching course a 25hp 250lb single cylinder go-cart is 4 seconds faster than their Z06s. This is due to the fact that the track is all corners and the vette can’t take advantage of its superior top speed. The cart accelerates and slows down much faster too.

The combination of the best qualities is what makes for a really fast car. I always though the old Can-am cars were the best compromise, certainly in their day and there are still quite fearsome by today’s standards. Now I really don’t like Porsches much, I think they’re ugly and overpriced and I’d keep my C5 any day, but I’ve always made an exception for the 917. (This assumes I’ve done my math correctly, everything was in metric) A 1973 Porsche 917/30, a Can-am car not a Le Mans car, weighed 1900 lbs which is less than a C5, C5R, WRX, etc., was 82in wide, wider than the above, had a 328ci Flat 12 twin turbo charged engine. It would run reliably at about 19 lbs of boost for 1100 hp, but the driver could turn it up from the cockpit to over 30 lbs giving the car 1500 hp. And for those of you who like drag racing, and everyone else for that matter, it will do 0-60 mph in 2.1 seconds, 0-100 in 3.9, and 0-200 in 13.4. It was lighter than an import, wider than a vette, and had decent displacement and artificial aspiration. People who vintage race them claim that you can get the tires to break loose under acceleration as high up as 4th gear and thats with ratio's meant for road racing not a drag strip.

 

[Gorgon]

James, that is one hell of a first post. Welcome to the Corvette Action Center.

Leon

 

[03yellow]

Thanks, I appreciate it.

 

[Tuna]

Just for purposes of discussion, I have a sis 'n law that absolutely hates every car the the US produces. She used to race an RX-3 and currently owns a Subaru WRX and a 1970's era Porsche.

Says there there is no reason to own such big and heavy cars if you want performance when you can get light cars/motors with superchargers/turbos to match the big US cars. Plus, she says, the smaller cars' brakes last a lot longer and perform much better. Obviously hates my C5.

I realize that you on the CAC will disagree with her, but why? Obviously I can't support myself in an argument, YET, as I'm still fairly new in Vette ownership, but your input can help me out.

Thanks!!

I think you have something here to provide discussion material back to your sis 'n law.

She sounds like someone that has made up her mind on what American cars are and nothing may chance her mind no matter what kind of data you put in front of her. She may also be just trying to get your goat and see how you react. Give her the facts and see if it makes any difference.

In my experience, it won't. People buys cars because it suits their idea of what a car is or ought to be. Many times not really paying any attention to logic. Like Vette ownership is any more logical than STi or GTO or Lightning or SLR ownership.

Like many others here, I've driven the 4/6 cylinder turbo cars with and w/o AWD. I'll take the Vette any day. With AWD, you can get away from a dead stop like a rocket but only if you have the turbo spooled up and the motor at some RPM. If they are idling and you want to go, they have a very noticable lag before anything gets going - not so with the Vette.

Back in 91 when I bought my first Vette, I looked at the AWD 300ZX and the 3000GT VR4 and several other cars. By the time they added the AWD and turbos, they were 200+ pounds heavier than the Vette. Felt like it too.

Our 03 vert is even lighter than the old 92. I can't wait to see how the C6 is for weight and power - enough rumors already, show us the car!

Have fun and enjoy the Vette.

 

[Tom73]

One of the auto mags recently did a comparison of the 4-cyl "tuner" cars. Had 7 or 8 of the top ones. They also had a stock Z06 on hand. Final results, the stock Z06 outperformed all of the tuner cars in all performance aspects. Cost, once the "tuner" costs were added in the Z06 was the lowest priced car.

tom...

 

[corvettecrazy]

Tom73: but here's the catch, I could go out buy a STI add a larger turbo with a turbo timer, a larger intercooler, and an EMS (engine management system) and probably wipe the smiles off most vette owners. in the end the STI is still cheaper and out performs the vette.

another thing: you talk about the weight savings making up for the lack of hp on an import. BUT those 4 banging engines can still be modified to produce more hp than the vette. so then they gain 2 advantages, more horsepower AND lower weight. on top of that the import can be bought for cheaper.

I'm not trying to start a bloody battle, just staing what I know.